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Matt Zerella posted:Dude, we get it. You just said you're done here and you're right back to square one. You're right, I should listen to my own advice.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:03
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PT6A posted:Evil can be as easily supported through inaction as through action. If, through a desire to maintain absolute purity, you allow a greater evil to occur through inaction, then you have supported evil. except you're AGAIN looking only one move ahead if you look two or three moves ahead you'll see that the previous "greater evil" is now a "lesser evil" which you must support in order to avoid bringing an even greater evil to power that is the consequence of your politics, voting for greater and greater evils until you're in a loving dystopian novel
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Jun 21, 2018 18:04
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PT6A posted:Well, we agree on that at least. the part where we differ is that we continue to believe this is the case when someone we liked starts doing it
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Jun 21, 2018 18:04
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large adult son posted:except you're AGAIN looking only one move ahead The amazing thing about "well we're not building as many child cages" is that it sure as gently caress didn't get support from the sensible moderate Republicans the wonk class is telling us we needed to pander to by imprisoning a sensible number of children. Every Republican called Obama a gangster-loving terrorist abetting a Hispanic invasion of America anyway, and now his ""sensible"" policies are being used as a justification for what Republicans are doing. Can anyone tell me what political advantage, exactly, we gained by triangulating on the "be assholes to refugees so they'll leave versus be decent human beings" issue? Like even from a cold amoral realpolitik perspective it made no sense.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:07
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"We can get democrats elected AND fight against democrats" is an inherently asinine position, basically. The reality is that for democrats to change they must be in peril, and that will always lead to short term suffering. A democrat that is gaining ground is not a democrat that will change their views or be threatened by a contender who does not have the support of the party. The reason we're even talking about the very idea of democrats changing is because they lost an election. We saw what supporting dems while fighting dems does; it gets Tim Manchin the full backing of the party over his challenger.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:08
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https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/1009845539570159616 I hate my senator soooooooo much.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:10
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It's similar to Democrats being drug warriors supporting mass incarceration, or busting unions. Destroying and disenfranchising the communities who support you in order to pander to people who will always hate you, whoops now there's no one to fundraise or vote for us how did that happen.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:12
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PT6A posted:Aaaand I think that's about enough of engaging in this discussion. I honestly am trying to understand y'all's world view, but it's just so bizarre to me that it doesn't make any sense to me at all, and I don't think either of us are ever going to convince the other. PT6A posted:I've admitted I was wrong about that. It was a different time, I was a dumber person, and I've grown a lot since then. PT6A posted:Out of curiosity, where were all you Pure Leftists during the Obama administration when it came to immigrants? What did you do to bring attention to the issue and drive the necessary changes?
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Jun 21, 2018 18:13
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Yeah, that's basically why I posted what I did. You'd think most people would have the humility not to challenge others with "Well, what were you doing while this was going on?!" when they themselves were advocating the sort of things PT6A was advocating during that time. He's really not in a position to point any fingers, now or then.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:31
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There's also a pretty well documented left-wing opposition to Obama era immigration policies so idk what he's even trying to say.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:32
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kidkissinger posted:There's also a pretty well documented left-wing opposition to Obama era immigration policies so idk what he's even trying to say. Standard ad hom, it's not intended to be consistent, just to provide a rationalization for ignoring uncomfortable arguments by disparaging the character of the messenger.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:42
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VitalSigns posted:Standard ad hom, it's not intended to be consistent, just to provide a rationalization for ignoring uncomfortable arguments by disparaging the character of the messenger. Also, let's remember that the response to these protests was basically the same responses we get to any criticism of Obama now.
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Jun 21, 2018 18:45
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The Muppets On PCP posted:kucinich is just smart enough to recognize that anyone who dares go against the lion assad is struck down like the lowly dog they are This joke didn’t get the respect it deserved imo. Matt Zerella posted:I hate my senator soooooooo much. I do too and it’s really stark how that line of thinking (“the wall is bad, we need smarter border security  “) is disconnected from the reality on the ground. This morning we had a group of about 400 people protesting in front of an ICE building. We had a ton of white people, Hispanic people, black people, a white Presbyterian minister got rounds of applause for “human beings aren’t illegal,” a black minister got rounds of applause for “until America stops mistreating those in need, I reject my American heritage; I am an immigrant.” We had lines of cars coming past to honk and wave in support and the police just sat and sulked in a corner. Normal people are ready for way better politics than we’ve been given.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:05
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Has there really been a multi page discussion of Dennis Kucinich of all people? For some reason I thought he was an anti-vaxxer but I can't find anything in a google search except "just asking questions" stuff from the early 2000's.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has there really been a multi page discussion of Dennis Kucinich of all people? Really it was a multipage discussion about confirmation bias and how partisanship drives people to create a narrative that exonerates people considered to be on their team while looking for reasons to demonize anyone who criticizes the team. The most interesting and revealing example was Paracaidas' "omg he praised Trump's inaugural address!" Trump's speech was vague pablum about putting American workers first, rebuilding infrastructure, and defeating ISIS. Something that no politician could possibly disagree with, and indeed they all rushed to praise and agree with it because no American politician is going to say "well gently caress the American worker, let the infrastructure crumble, and also I'm now joining ISIS!" But because the partisan believes in a narrative that anyone who criticizes liberal interventionist ideology is pro-Trump, he immediately went searching for evidence of Kucinich praising something that Trump did, said "a ha, here he is agreeing with vague pro-worker pap from Trump's speech, I was right all along, leftists like Kucinich love Trump and here's the proof", without doing the basic critical thinking that someone actually intellectually curious about Kucinich's position would do. He didn't look at what exactly Kucinich liked about the speech, how that speech was received anywhere else, or what mainstream Democrats said about it, and embarrassingly it turned out that the House Minority Leader praised the exact same lines in the speech Kucinich did in pretty much the same words he used. It's a cogent demonstration of how partisanship encourages us to craft narratives that reinforce our team allegiances and go looking for evidence to support the narrative, rather than forming our opinions based upon the body of evidence.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:30
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has there really been a multi page discussion of Dennis Kucinich of all people? DK was ahead of his time.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:34
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Matt Zerella posted:DK was ahead of his time. He has no style He has no grace This Dem has a funny face
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Jun 21, 2018 19:37
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One of my biggest internal arguments I have with myself is I wish Bernie had emerged as a candidate earlier than 2016.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:37
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Really the only good point made in the last several pages was that Kucinich's wife is hot.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:38
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Really the only good point made in the last several pages was that Kucinich's wife is hot. This is probably the worst I've seen in the last ten pages at least.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:43
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I’d rather we kept slapfighting about people who aren’t running anymore than be weird about judging how their wives look tbh. https://twitter.com/ocasio2018/status/1009834342519070721?s=21
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Jun 21, 2018 19:46
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Lightning Knight posted:I’d rather we kept slapfighting about people who aren’t running anymore than be weird about judging how their wives look tbh. She bitchslapped him last time and she'll do it again and I'm so hype to vote for her in 6 freakin days! NY politics are back baby awoooooo (wolf howl)
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Jun 21, 2018 19:47
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I will be pleasantly surprised if New York manages to not be awful. Sadly there is no hope for my state, because it is full of New Yorkers.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:50
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I will be pleasantly surprised if New York manages to not be awful. Keep an eye on Salazar in Brooklyn too (though she's not federal). Man if a progressive OurRev/DSA backed candidate knocks off the #3 dem in the house that would be one hell of a shot across the bow to Pelosi & Co
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Jun 21, 2018 19:52
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This is completely unrelated to what I talk about below, but this is a very good episode of Citations Needed: https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-37-black-lives-matter-dreamers-and-the-problem-of-the-perfect-victim Basically it focuses on the harm associated with the (often well-meaning) desire to highlight how victims of oppression (like black people or immigrants) were straight-A students with no crime record, etc. There's a strong tendency for the media and politicians to only focus on injustice against people who have the right sort of image, and ignore or excuse injustice against anyone who doesn't fit that mold. The problem with focusing on how good of a person a victim was is that it carries the implication that it would have been less bad if the victim, say, had a criminal record (or bad grades or whatever). twodot posted:This is you totally failing to understand any of that. You are transparently not applying any sort of consistent analysis of people who disagree with you. You have clearly already arrived at a conclusion, and are just reflexively defending that conclusion without pausing to think "Is it bad we murder children?". At its core, the difference seems to be that folks like him view politics as a war of personalities, rather than actually looking at specific ideas and their outcomes. When he argues against leftists, he isn't really arguing against their ideology; he's arguing against the specific type of person he imagines them to be (someone who is irrational and obsessed with purity and inherently can't be taken seriously). That's probably the biggest thing that frustrates me with these discussions. The left is always focusing their attacks on the specific things Democrats are doing or not doing, while the liberals arguing with them instead make attacks based off of the type of person they perceive leftists to be. There is always a default assumption on their part that the Democratic Party is acting in good faith, and a very high (and sometimes impossible) burden of proof is required to get them to turn against them (a burden that is notably absent when it comes to attacking either leftists or Republicans). When a Democrat does something, they will always assume it's being done with positive goals (unless explicitly stated otherwise), but leftists (or left-aligned politicians like Bernie Sanders) don't share in that benefit of the doubt. They will never go out of their way to attack a mainstream Democrat unless the person in question is also being attacked by other Democratic politicians/media, but they'll jump at the chance to smear a leftist. The obvious counter to what I said above would be to point out that many leftists don't devote as much attention to Republicans, but the key difference here is something that I mentioned before - negative attention towards Trump/Republicans from the left is not in short supply and is heavily supported by the mainstream media. But there is a distinct lack of mainstream voices calling for the Democratic Party to address various injustices, so it's important to magnify that signal (both for the purposes of addressing those injustices and for beating Republicans, which will be far easier with a better Democratic Party). VitalSigns posted:It's a cogent demonstration of how partisanship encourages us to craft narratives that reinforce our team allegiances and go looking for evidence to support the narrative, rather than forming our opinions based upon the body of evidence. Honestly, in cases like the guy you mentioned, I'm not sure how much of it is partisanship as opposed to just "really loving hating leftists." Some of these folks just absolutely can't stand the mental image they have of leftists. It's like they imagine some neckbeard with a Che shirt sitting behind the keyboard typing the posts and cannot let that stand. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 20:07
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https://twitter.com/KilloughCNN/status/1009817477767925760 gently caress our leadership also, i am not shocked at all that the visiting centrists are pro-deep state and anti-kucinich
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Jun 21, 2018 20:18
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Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/KilloughCNN/status/1009817477767925760 Onlty the FBI can save us, haven't you heard? In fact, no one but the FBI MUST save us, because once you empower the plebs they will start demanding unseemly things such as education, health care, or that foreign hospitals not be turned to gore-soaked rubble!
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Jun 21, 2018 20:24
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Sephyr posted:Onlty the FBI can save us, haven't you heard? In fact, no one but the FBI MUST save us, because once you empower the plebs they will start demanding unseemly things such as education, health care, or that foreign hospitals not be turned to gore-soaked rubble! Also we're gonna nominate troops and cops but with a D next to their name. You're gonna love it folks, trust me. E: https://twitter.com/inthesedeserts/status/1009863449915031552 Matt Zerella fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 20:26
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Gotta watch out for the pro-Trump left tho
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Jun 21, 2018 21:18
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Ytlaya posted:When he argues against leftists, he isn't really arguing against their ideology; he's arguing against the specific type of person he imagines them to be (someone who is irrational and obsessed with purity and inherently can't be taken seriously). Ytlaya posted:When a Democrat does something, they will always assume it's being done with positive goals (unless explicitly stated otherwise), but leftists (or left-aligned politicians like Bernie Sanders) don't share in that benefit of the doubt. For example, praising Trump's blandly positive inaugural address. It was unremarkable when Pelosi praised it, because of course agreeing with platitudes and appearing to reach across the aisle to accomplish common goals is smart politics. But Kucinich saying the same things she did ah ha! he must be an evil racesexist Trumper just as I suspected all along!
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Jun 21, 2018 21:24
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Lightning Knight posted:I’d rather we kept slapfighting about people who aren’t running anymore than be weird about judging how their wives look tbh. let's do both! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-Ehchdje0&t=184s
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Jun 21, 2018 22:03
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Ytlaya posted:At its core, the difference seems to be that folks like him view politics as a war of personalities, rather than actually looking at specific ideas and their outcomes. When he argues against leftists, he isn't really arguing against their ideology; he's arguing against the specific type of person he imagines them to be (someone who is irrational and obsessed with purity and inherently can't be taken seriously). This is exactly how nearly every one of my attempts to argue with my anti-left liberal FB friends goes. It's infuriating. I wish there were a way to get these people to actually disagree with me on substance instead of throwing around ad hominem smears like "purity test," but I'm all but convinced that there isn't.
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Jun 21, 2018 22:14
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Barry Convex posted:This is exactly how nearly every one of my attempts to argue with my anti-left liberal FB friends goes. It's infuriating. They've always been like that. Mainstream liberals love hiding behind things like IDPOL and intersectionalism and either not truly understanding what those things are/mean or do it intentionally. They just use new terms all the time. Purity test was primaries and election. Now it's whataboutism. Your friends just haven't heard the daily show use the term yet. E: also don't argue politics on Facebook.
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Jun 21, 2018 22:20
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Generally it's either (1) your friends aren't well informed politically and are just relying on cultural identification, liberals are "smart", "sensible", "realistic" and "tolerant" whereas leftists are stupid, over-idealistic, impractical, shrill SJWs, etc. Or (2) your friends are well informed, and do have substantive policy differences that they don't want to admit, so they profess to have the same goals but because leftists have all the bad character flaws from (1) above, the best way to achieve the leftists' goals is to support liberal politicians who oppose all those goals but are supposedly more electable and competent because they're smart, sensible, realistic, etc. This is characteristic of most of the informed anti-left liberals in D&D. See the endless "well I want single-payer/an NHS as much as you, but see the advocates for it are stupid and their policy wouldn't work, probably, because they're just so dumb; I'm afraid we have to support industry-bought politicians who relentlessly oppose it and will do anything to keep it from happening because they've got all the smarts and will consult the sensible conservatives and austerity folks at the Center for American Progress who can write a good solid conservative UHC plan like VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 22:30
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A poster on another board tried to use his sexuality as a defense for Manchins bad record on LGBT rights. Kept saying that he’s gay and alright with Manchin declining to vote to repeal DADT and supporting DOMA. I had to reveal that I was bisexual and he finally stopped. And let’s not forget a white woman telling a black woman to get to know black people.
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Jun 21, 2018 22:44
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There are concentration camps in Texas. https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/954047176417701890
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Jun 21, 2018 22:56
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BUILD THAT WALL TRUMP! https://twitter.com/senschumer/status/954047176417701890 Uh wait... EDIT: haha whoops Seriously though Schumer was picked entirely on the idea that Clinton was going to win and he would have to do nothing except push stuff forward. Now he's expected to resist a fascist regime and he's absolutely unqualified. 
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 23:17
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Herr Hitler there is no need for this barbarity in Dachau, I have a bill right here authorizing deportation of the Jewish menace to Madagascar, it's time to take ja for an answer.
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 23:24
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VitalSigns posted:Herr Hitler there is no need for this barbarity in Dachau, I have a bill right here authorizing deportation of the Jewish menace to Madagascar, it's time to take ja for an answer. Im not really an expert in german history. Were german jews ACTUALLY foreigners like our southern question is? I assumed they'd lived in central europe for generations or more.
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Jun 21, 2018 23:38
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theCalamity posted:A poster on another board tried to use his sexuality as a defense for Manchins bad record on LGBT rights. Kept saying that he’s gay and alright with Manchin declining to vote to repeal DADT and supporting DOMA. I had to reveal that I was bisexual and he finally stopped. It's 'cause they know they can't win the argument on its own merits, so instead they try to make it about who you are, which coupled with the establishment liberal assumption that they must be the most virtuous motherfucker on planet earth makes trying to actually have a debate on actual issues an exercise in futility.
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Jun 21, 2018 23:48
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