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The most interesting part is how she sees it as a game of chance, where personal skill had no basis in "winning" (getting justice) and "the house" always wins. While it's her palace, is it clear that she thinks of herself as the beneficiary of this kind of broken justice system, or is she only starting to cynically accept it after years of being worn down by it all and seeing it all as a "game" she has to "win" but has no real reliable ability to influence? Of course, winning right now means essentially agreeing to frame someone, so it's pretty clear that she's gotten some real distorted desires to sort out.
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Jun 24, 2018 21:31
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GunnerJ posted:The most interesting part is how she sees it as a game of chance, where personal skill had no basis in "winning" (getting justice) and "the house" always wins. While it's her palace, is it clear that she thinks of herself as the beneficiary of this kind of broken justice system, or is she only starting to cynically accept it after years of being worn down by it all and seeing it all as a "game" she has to "win" but has no real reliable ability to influence? Of course, winning right now means essentially agreeing to frame someone, so it's pretty clear that she's gotten some real distorted desires to sort out. probably the latter, in that the constant stress and cutthroat nature of her job have caused her to completely decouple it from any kind of larger morality now she just views trials as games she has to win by any means necessary, with no care for the people she hurts to ensure her success
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Jun 24, 2018 21:34
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Oxxidation posted:probably the latter, in that the constant stress and cutthroat nature of her job have caused her to completely decouple it from any kind of larger morality This just in: Sae is Manfred von Karma. Someone needs to make art of this.
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Jun 24, 2018 21:36
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Epicmissingno posted:This just in: Sae is Manfred von Karma. I've read that the Ace Attourney games were sort of a biting commentary on how cutthroat and unfair the Japanese court system was so it's not surprising Sae would draw comparisons to the prosecutors from that game.
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Jun 24, 2018 21:46
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If Sae starts whipping someone, I'm out.
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Jun 24, 2018 22:08
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In the general Persona thread someone else said it best: I kind of imagine Joker going on a five minute tangent to Sae during the interrogation about how she could totally pull off the high-society gothic look if she wanted.
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Jun 24, 2018 22:23
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GunnerJ posted:The most interesting part is how she sees it as a game of chance, where personal skill had no basis in "winning" (getting justice) and "the house" always wins. While it's her palace, is it clear that she thinks of herself as the beneficiary of this kind of broken justice system, or is she only starting to cynically accept it after years of being worn down by it all and seeing it all as a "game" she has to "win" but has no real reliable ability to influence? Of course, winning right now means essentially agreeing to frame someone, so it's pretty clear that she's gotten some real distorted desires to sort out. Given that the treasure is in the manager's office, she see herself as "the house," doesn't she?
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Jun 24, 2018 22:52
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Clarste posted:Given that the treasure is in the manager's office, she see herself as "the house," doesn't she?
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Jun 24, 2018 23:40
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The only complication here is that Sae seems frustrated by her job. I would not have guessed based on all the stress her job gives her that she feels confident in winning.
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Jun 24, 2018 23:52
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Here's how I see it: Sae's not stressed about convicting the Phantom Thieves so much as catching them.
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Jun 25, 2018 00:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:I like how both the song and the signs around the Casino tell you everything you need to know about Sae's inner views. One is a place that is presented as fair and impartial where all are seen as equals, but in truth favors the privileged few at the expense of the many; where arcane structures and arbitrary rules remove all agency from those involved; and where, to the uninitiated, the outcome appears to be determined by the strings of fate instead of an individual's worth. The other is a casino. It may be cliché and on the nose, but drat does this Palace say a lot about how Sae views her world. I feel like Sae may have seen the court system as a rigged game for a while, but she saw her role as a passive experience. After all, the dealer at the table is not supposed to affect the outcome of the game. But the pressure of the Phantom Thieves case, both the pressure she puts on herself and now the mounting pressure coming from above, has distorted her outlook not just of the system but of herself. She's taking a more active approach in the investigation, more willing to use the system to bring an ending to this case. Her desire to bring the Phantom Thieves to justice has become corrupted into a desire to bring them down no matter what, and that corrupted desire has given rise to a Palace within her heart. I like how fitting and well thought out this Palace is looking.
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Jun 25, 2018 01:39
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Robert De Niro's going to take Goro into a back room and smash his hand with a sledgehammer, isn't he?
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Jun 25, 2018 01:54
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Akechi’s mask is stupid. That nose. Sheesh. And sooo many elements. I had a really hard time deciding which skills to keep and which to forget. And yes, Sae’s palace is great.
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Jun 25, 2018 03:35
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Oxxidation posted:probably the latter, in that the constant stress and cutthroat nature of her job have caused her to completely decouple it from any kind of larger morality Don't forget how the Japanese justice system focuses on having someone to blame for a crime and is especially harsh on people who don't seem to show any form of contrition at all, as they are big on public confessions and all that, as shown in this game. Shame based society and such. Also, they try to secure confessions of any sort before going to trial, trying to make the convictions a forgone conclusion. I know prosecutors everywhere pride themselves on their conviction rate and attempt to make it as high as possible, but from what I heard, Japanese ones take it to the next level and will straight not bring a case without trying to have everything lined up to convict a guy. EDIT: already mentioned above GhostStalker fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 8, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 04:56
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GhostStalker posted:Don't forget how the Japanese justice system focuses on having someone to blame for a crime and is especially harsh on people who don't seem to show any form of contrition at all, as they are big on public confessions and all that, as shown in this game. Shame based society and all that. Also, they try to secure confessions of any sort before going to trial, trying to make the convictions a forgone conclusion. Though not that point is is good to mention. As Japan's Prosecutors will actually throw out cases they feel they have a chance of losing, in order to avoid potentially getting a loss. Which results in them also making up evidence and forcing confessions.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:11
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MonsterEnvy posted:Though not that point is is good to mention. Yeah, that was implied. But yes, you think that the certain jurisdictions in the US have problems with false confessions and bad witness identifications leading to botched convictions? Japan gives a figurative shrug with regards to that kind of thing, they just want to see someone punished for a crime, and again will look down on a person even more if they don't show any form of contrition for "what they did", even if they proclaim innocence.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:25
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I imagine Sae has the most interesting Shadow because sweet lord there's probably an asston of stuff she never gets the chance to say.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:29
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MonsterEnvy posted:Though not that point is is good to mention. Phoenix Wright is public enemy #1.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:35
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I'm always thankful for people explaining all the problems with the legal system in Japan since I know very little about law, but what about the civil system? Any major problems there?
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Jun 25, 2018 05:36
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Glazius posted:I imagine Sae has the most interesting Shadow because sweet lord there's probably an asston of stuff she never gets the chance to say. I can easily imagine Sae coming from the same place as Makoto in regards to being inspired by her father and so taking it really badly when he died. Add that and the pressure coming from trying to support her sister and it shouldn't be to surprising that she could be pushed this far.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:42
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Sae's Cognitive Makoto is probably really awful.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:49
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Robindaybird posted:I think I'd like the eyeliner if it weren't so thick, but overall I am digging the Goth Noir look I think the ultra-thick eyeliner is kind of important for pushing her from normal-sexy into evil-sexy territory; she needs to look a little monstrous and inhuman to really look like a villain. Sae's definitely stylish as heck, though.
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Jun 25, 2018 06:07
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Also, isn't it the same design as Joker's mask?
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Jun 25, 2018 06:13
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The best poster in this dungeon is one that says "VICTORY ADDICTION" because it sounds like a sick band name. I really appreciate Sae's design because I think it really nails the same duality that Makoto expresses between the real world and the Metaverse. High School President/Biker Thug and Prosecutor/Crime Goth. For me at least, it makes me go "oh, these two really are sisters" in a way that their previous dialogue didn't really emphasize.
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Jun 25, 2018 07:04
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Mraagvpeine posted:I'm always thankful for people explaining all the problems with the legal system in Japan since I know very little about law, but what about the civil system? Any major problems there? You don't go to court because you don't want to rock the boat for your landlord/employer/contract partner and look like a huge wuss. Incidentally also why nobody takes the annual paid leave they're entitled to; they're passing up chances of promotion compared to the employees who work themselves to literal death, and not many are willing to sue companies for perpetuating that kind of company culture because... That's just how it is, man. Asian cultures aren't very lawsuit-happy compared to the rest of the world, and especially not the USA. There's more of a focus on mediation, compromise and arbitration rather than going to court.
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Jun 25, 2018 07:53
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It's gameplay semantics, but this is where the security system of Palaces make no sense; Shadow Sae is already aware we're there, so the security level in the palace makes no sense in-game.
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Jun 25, 2018 12:54
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Shadow Sae is treating it like a game, so the fact she has rules in place (that are coincidentally consistent with prior palaces!) makes sense. Please come up to the manager's office!* (*Terms and conditions apply. Offer not valid outside the metaverse, and in any jurisdiction where it is prohibited. You have to be 18 or over, or have the tacit permission of your coffee dad, to play. Participation may result in insomnia, drowsiness, uncontrollable rage states, death, and water retention. This is not an exhaustive list of side effects, ask your shady backstreet doctor if Shadow Sae's Palace of Justice and Gambling is right for you. Management reserves the right to end the contest for the day at its discretion, including if you gently caress up and get caught too often. Contest expires on 11/20/20XX.)
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Jun 25, 2018 13:57
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's gameplay semantics, but this is where the security system of Palaces make no sense; Shadow Sae is already aware we're there, so the security level in the palace makes no sense in-game. Except well, just because it's her palace doesn't mean she's in charge now does it. She's the Manager of the Casino but that still implies Owners and whatnot, manifestations of her bosses and so on.
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Jun 25, 2018 14:55
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Funky Valentine posted:Sae's Cognitive Makoto is probably really awful. oh jesus i didn't even think about the fact that we're probably going to run into her not looking forward to that poo poo
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Jun 25, 2018 16:31
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Lord_Magmar posted:Except well, just because it's her palace doesn't mean she's in charge now does it. She's the Manager of the Casino but that still implies Owners and whatnot, manifestations of her bosses and so on. that's a good point, given Futaba's - while the Shadow was techincally in charged, it's all fueled by the fear and guilt caused by her Mother's Cognitive, so it's not the first time we see a shadow not having full control of themselves.
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Jun 25, 2018 16:51
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ApplesandOranges posted:It's gameplay semantics, but this is where the security system of Palaces make no sense; Shadow Sae is already aware we're there, so the security level in the palace makes no sense in-game. Sae's shadow views this as all a game so why would she raise the alert level?
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Jun 25, 2018 16:53
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We also met Okumura and Kaneshiro and Kamoshida and Madarame shadows during the palace. It’s got nothing to do with them knowing you’re there. I think it’s more like how much of a threat their real world selves think you are, which is why the cognition changes. Same with the reporter’s articles I think. And if you run away from their shadow minions, it just means you’re slippery and more likely to reach the treasure.
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Jun 25, 2018 17:24
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Deltasquid posted:You don't go to court because you don't want to rock the boat for your landlord/employer/contract partner and look like a huge wuss. Incidentally also why nobody takes the annual paid leave they're entitled to; they're passing up chances of promotion compared to the employees who work themselves to literal death, and not many are willing to sue companies for perpetuating that kind of company culture because... That's just how it is, man. I mean, from reading the "Working in IT" thread that's pretty much how stuff is in the USA as far as I can tell. Being an employee in say, Texas, it sounds like you have basically no rights at all.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:54
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Gort posted:I mean, from reading the "Working in IT" thread that's pretty much how stuff is in the USA as far as I can tell. Being an employee in say, Texas, it sounds like you have basically no rights at all. Yeah, but in Texas they don’t include a standard line item in the budget for “flowers sent to the families of people that we worked to death”.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:51
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Gort posted:I mean, from reading the "Working in IT" thread that's pretty much how stuff is in the USA as far as I can tell. Being an employee in say, Texas, it sounds like you have basically no rights at all. The techbro and IT sector are probably a good equivalent, yeah.
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Jun 25, 2018 22:53
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GhostStalker posted:Yeah, that was implied. This is what's happening to the Phantom Thieves right now. They're the most visible suspects for Okamura's death, so to hell with determining guilt. They're going down, and now even Sae's getting caught up in the frenzy. Persona 4 fans will remember something similar with the kid that killed the homeroom teacher. He confessed to all the murders, and it looked like only Naoto and possibly Dojima gave a drat that he was lying to puff himself up. The game made it sound like the whole rest of the department was just happy to close the case. Naoto couldn't stand by that, and that's why she went as insanely far as she did to prove the case wasn't over. quote:and again will look down on a person even more if they don't show any form of contrition for "what they did", even if they proclaim innocence. For your homework tonight, take this thought back to the beginning of the game and look at how Maaku is treated by his classmates. Or hell, everyone.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:09
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So basically, Edgeworth's whole "Everyone is guilty of something, so I just say gently caress it and try to convict everyone" fatalism in Ace Attorney is a societally accepted mentality? Because that's pretty terrifying.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:20
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Makoto hasn't told the others about how Sae sometimes comes home from work angrily muttering about the foolish fools at the foolish courthouse and the biggest fools of all, that foolish defense attorney and his foolish proteges
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Jun 26, 2018 01:33
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All in all being a defense attorney sounds like a rough gig in Japan.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:43
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It's all worth it on the days you get to cross-examine a parrot or an orca, though.
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Jun 26, 2018 02:07
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