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PT6A posted:Ultimately, I agree that politicians do need to be criticized and challenged constantly, but when that doesn't work out the way we might hope, I disagree that the answer is to run home and pout in the corner. When our attempts to sway the political discourse in the direction we want it to go fail, then we must make the best of what we have. Obama wasn't ideal, Clinton wasn't ideal, Sanders isn't ideal, Trudeau isn't ideal, no one is ideal and everyone sucks. Do you think leftists only want someone pure and perfect?
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Jun 25, 2018 04:48
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WampaLord posted:That sure looks like *canadian Conservative party bow tie spins electorally*
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Jun 25, 2018 04:48
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to me
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theCalamity posted:Do you think leftists only want someone pure and perfect? That's the strawman constructed so as to villainize people for just wanting better, yes.
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Jun 25, 2018 04:54
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Oh Snapple! posted:That's the strawman constructed so as to villainize people for just wanting better, yes. drat the left and their goddamn PURITY TESTS! Why won't they vote for racists like Manchin?!
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Jun 25, 2018 04:59
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theCalamity posted:Do you think leftists only want someone pure and perfect? It would certainly seem so. Evangelicals were like, "let's vote for the divorced orange whoremonger why not, we might get some poo poo we like out of it," whereas the left is busy attacking its own. WampaLord posted:That sure looks like No, my point is that we have to learn to put up with imperfection. No one is perfect, every candidate will do something you strongly disagree with. You have to choose whether it's a better idea to stand on principle and watch as someone worse gets elected, or put up with something that isn't your very favourite thing. quote:Well since you recently pointed out how Bernie isn't perfect, I think we're pretty square on that front. No, I'm worried that in every race, there will be an electorally significant portion of the left that will find something they don't like about the Democratic candidate and use that as a reason not to vote for them. I don't like Bernie's stance on ICE. I'd still vote for him against a republican, for any office, without even a second of hesitation. I would do everything I can to try and convince him to change his opinion on that issue, but failing that, I would still vote for him without an iota of regret if he were the nominee. That's the point -- that Bernie is a good candidate still, in spite of his imperfections. I can't imagine who in the Democratic party would not vote for Bernie against a Republican, but if such a person exists, they're the person you should be pissed off at, not me.
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Jun 25, 2018 05:00
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I enjoy that you continue to apply 0 actual context to those piddly "imperfections" of folks like Obama and Clinton to fit this bizarre framing that Bernie is exactly as bad as them due to This One Bad Thing and not a massive improvement over them on many, many other issues such that folks are willing to compromise by supporting him. And you didn't answer earlier: Why don't you feel this is something Bernie can be pushed to improve on?
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Jun 25, 2018 05:15
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90s Rememberer posted:reminder it was the centrists who nominated an unelectable slaveowner as the democratic nominee, not leftists please, she was a slave renter at best. the slaves came with the office of governor
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Jun 25, 2018 05:33
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PT6A posted:That's the point -- that Bernie is a good candidate still, in spite of his imperfections. bernie isn't a good candidate, he's the lesser evil
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Jun 25, 2018 05:59
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PT6A posted:bizarre ad hominem attacks like "you're openly anti-Semitic for criticizing Bernie," p sure that was to show how ridiculous you were to call people racists and sexists for disagreeing with imprisoning refugees fleeing war-torn countries, because a black guy and a woman supported it.
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Jun 25, 2018 06:03
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PT6A posted:Except it did happen -- everyone jumped straight to making weird, lovely excuses for Bernie like "well maybe old leftists don't need to like immigration???" and "oh, I'm disappointed, but I'm pretty sure he'll change his mind [despite no evidence]" and bizarre ad hominem attacks like "you're openly anti-Semitic for criticizing Bernie," so I think I made my point. I was literally the only poster to even suggest a defense for Bernie's position. "That sucks, I hope he improves" isn't a defense, and the third example was calling you out on your "hrmm seems racist to defend bernie but not obama" post.
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Jun 25, 2018 06:42
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slippery slope toward... treating nazis like poo poo all the time
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Jun 25, 2018 06:53
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Paradoxish posted:Edit- I mean, I think the reason you find the opinions of some people in this thread so baffling is that you don't get that the whole system breaks down if we just accept that politicians will have some bad opinions and that's okay. It's not okay. Allowing people in power to hold onto a few bad opinions is how you end up with politicians entrenched into increasingly secure positions and no ability for anyone to meaningfully change anything. Politicians should be challenged constantly, relentlessly, and viciously from their own side if they want to actually keep their jobs. That's the only way to get any kind of proper, functioning democracy out of the hellscape that is the American two party system. The one response I could see to this is that there's still a difference in the response to something like Sanders having this bad opinion (being directly opposed to the opinion and demanding change, but still thinking the politician is overall good in the context of American politics) and the response to other Democrats (flat-out thinking the politician is bad). I think this difference actually makes sense, in that there's a line where someone can be said to be an overall good force in American politics (that most Democrats don't cross*), but it's still a difference in the way failures are interpreted, even if it depends upon the magnitude of the failure. * Contrary to what most center-left/centrist types says, I don't think it's accurate to say that Democrats are definitely a force for good (even if they might not do as much good as we'd like). If you actually squared all the good and bad they do, I'm not so sure that it'd be a net positive. If you look at more than just the past few years (like going back to the 90s), I'm pretty sure the Democrats would be a net negative, and even if you only look at the Obama years it's still not clear if the good he did outweighed the harm of stuff like increased deportations and our wars abroad (and that's not even getting into the opportunity cost of postponing positive change). PT6A posted:I don't like Bernie's stance on ICE. I'd still vote for him against a republican, for any office, without even a second of hesitation. It's actually very revealing that folks like this always try to translate criticism/attacks into "a decision not to vote" - they're doing it because they don't actually have any other response to the criticism, so they have no choice but to boil it down to a pragmatic "lesser evil" voting argument (by basically converting every criticism into "so you're saying you would rather let the Republican win??"). At the end of the day, the reason why I feel confident making these kind of condescending posts is that there simply isn't a good explanation for the way these kinds of people discuss politics, especially if they're younger (and don't have all the socialism stereotypes internalized). There is no possible explanation for a person attacking the radical left far more frequently than the mainstream Democrats that doesn't boil down to either "they either disagree ideologically" or "they just don't care," so I'm not exactly worried that they secretly share my values or something. King of Solomon posted:Why don't you think Bernie would improve his position if called on it? The main reason I'm kinda doubting he will is that his response was almost identical to what is obviously the "standard Democratic response" to the issue. It didn't seem like him being caught off guard.
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Jun 25, 2018 06:54
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Ytlaya posted:The main reason I'm kinda doubting he will is that his response was almost identical to what is obviously the "standard Democratic response" to the issue. It didn't seem like him being caught off guard. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely possible that Bernie won't improve his position on the issue. I just think that it's not unreasonable to suggest he might improve with some pressure.
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Jun 25, 2018 07:15
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PT6A posted:It would certainly seem so. trump is not actually ideologically inconsistent for them, hth
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Jun 25, 2018 07:36
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PT6A posted:Except it did happen -- everyone jumped straight to making weird, lovely excuses for Bernie like "well maybe old leftists don't need to like immigration???" and "oh, I'm disappointed, but I'm pretty sure he'll change his mind [despite no evidence]" and bizarre ad hominem attacks like "you're openly anti-Semitic for criticizing Bernie," so I think I made my point. I made it explicit because I feared otherwise it would be overlooked entirely. PT6A posted:I see a guy who's way more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to an old white dude than a woman or person of colour.  E: PT6A posted:It's the exact opposite of "nothing matters." Everything matters at this point and that's why I believe it's so important that we don't allow the perfect to become the enemy of the good. Also look at this bullshit. Nothing is more important than beating Trump, which is why PT6A here has spent several pages attacking the guy who's objectively got the best shot at beating Trump for not openly endorsing what still is a fringe position. It's almost like he doesn't actually care even half as much about beating the fash as he does about punching left by way of performative wokeness. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 07:50
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PT6A posted:No, my point is that we have to learn to put up with imperfection. No one is perfect, every candidate will do something you strongly disagree with. You have to choose whether it's a better idea to stand on principle and watch as someone worse gets elected, or put up with something that isn't your very favourite thing. we already put up with imperfection. what you're really arguing is that all standards should be cast aside, and that we should vote for anyone with a D next to their name, regardless of their positions, or the circumstances of their nomination. personally, i'm not going to vote for racist trump supporters like manchin. you may wish to call that racism and trump support "imperfection", and try to cast that as being exactly the same as not fullthroatedly calling for ice to be dismantled and/or prosecuted, but you're just being disingenuous as hell Condiv fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 07:55
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I'm sure Bernie will improve his opinions when someone sits him down and tells him why this is bad. Like that time BLM reps had to tell him not all drug dealers were black people.
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Jun 25, 2018 07:56
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I'm sure Bernie will improve his opinions when someone sits him down and tells him why this is bad. Like that time BLM reps had to tell him not all drug dealers were black people. yes, bernie has improved his positions in response to criticism and feedback in the past. glad you noticed that. although, i'm not sure why you think failing to call for ice to be dismantled is equivalent to that example. edit: i'd also like to point out this is in stark contrast to dems like manchin, which when questioned on their lovely positions threw a gigantic tantrum in front of a large room of people and demanded that the people who were criticizing him beat him in an election. or hillary acting like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMegFe2GUp4 Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 07:58
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https://twitter.com/CNN/status/868289790453665792 wtf obama? you'd let your own child defend themselves in an immigration court? or are you really gonna pretend you loved those refugee children so much you tried to make them defend themselves without legal representation. quote:During a taped interview with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, Obama said that the children who have been streaming over the American border - mostly from Mexico and the Central American countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras - will only be provided care for as long as it’s legally mandated, and then will be sent back to their countries as soon as possible. not seeing the love here
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Jun 25, 2018 08:15
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Condiv posted:yes, bernie has improved his positions in response to criticism and feedback in the past. glad you noticed that. although, i'm not sure why you think failing to call for ice to be dismantled is equivalent to that example. Mostly frustration that he keeps having to be babied about these kinds of things. That he still keeps putting out incredibly dogwhistle-y statements about how cities are bad compared to his incredibly rural, old and white home-state. Yeah, yeah, he "didn't mean anything racist." Yeah, he'll "get better" about these things. Over and over. It'd be really nice if we didn't have to have these kinds of discussions in the first place. Edit: and one of these days he's going to have to face these criticisms on his own instead of pointing to a racist WV republican the dem establishment somehow has leverage on or Superpredators which I think can legally rent a car now. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 08:22
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Mostly frustration that he keeps having to be babied about these kinds of things. That he still keeps putting out incredibly dogwhistle-y statements about how cities are bad compared to his incredibly rural, old and white home-state. he doesn't point at hillary clinton or joe manchin. i did that. cause they're people who respond to criticism by throwing fits instead of, you know, changing. and superpredators wasn't the only racist poo poo hillary said. did you miss the 2008 election? did you miss her representing herself as the candidate of hardworking white people? but i get it der waffle mous. you think bernie is racist and that's why you feel comfortable stanning for a man who agrees with trump on whether football players should be able to protest the murder of black people by cops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W10i3o_IpA edit: lets throw this one in there too for good measure: https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/994320834289459203/video/1 here, have another: Joe Manchin on Sessions posted:‘It’s more what we know about a person than what people say about a person. ... I have not seen the things he’s been accused of or people talked about.’ Condiv fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 08:39
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I don't get what a living A Wyatt Mann cartoon has to do with my assertion Bernie's had too many racist grandpa moments than I'm comfortable with?
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Jun 25, 2018 09:00
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I don't get what a living A Wyatt Mann cartoon has to do with my assertion Bernie's had too many racist grandpa moments than I'm comfortable with? The fact that you felt the need to defend the aforementioned “A Wyatt Mann” cartoon speaks volumes. Apparently you can be comfortable defending that unrepentant racist, but feel a burning need to hold sanders to account for poo poo he’s apologized for and improved upon himself for.
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Jun 25, 2018 09:27
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Not to say that holding bernie to account for having bad positions is a bad thing. That’s how people get him to change after all. But when you reflexively defend manchin it brings into question your sincerity in this discussion
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Jun 25, 2018 09:30
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Is this what people they mean when they say "nice meltdown"?
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Jun 25, 2018 09:36
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Is this what people they mean when they say "nice meltdown"? No, not really. Just spelling things out for you der waffle mouse.
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Jun 25, 2018 09:43
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Condiv posted:No, not really. Just spelling things out for you der waffle mouse. Ok. Whatever you say. 
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Jun 25, 2018 09:51
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Ok. Whatever you say. Indeed. Seems our conversation is done if “nice meltdown!” Is the best you’ve got left 
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Jun 25, 2018 10:00
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Condiv posted:Indeed. Seems our conversation is done if “nice meltdown!” Is the best you’ve got left You shouldn't be so passionate, it's only politics!
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Jun 25, 2018 10:05
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Bernie Sanders, perhaps best known for always deflecting criticism on others.
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Jun 25, 2018 10:08
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Condiv posted:Indeed. Seems our conversation is done if “nice meltdown!” Is the best you’ve got left I'm reminded of this incident in college where a really obnoxious girl I knew was bragging about winning an argument in a politics class because she offered up a complete non sequitur that was barely related to the discussion at hand and her opponent left because they thought she was crazy and continuing was a waste of time. Anyway goodnight.
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Jun 25, 2018 10:09
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Ah, the Chewbacca defense.
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Jun 25, 2018 10:23
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I'm reminded of this incident in college where a really obnoxious girl I knew was bragging about winning an argument in a politics class because she offered up a complete non sequitur that was barely related to the discussion at hand and her opponent left because they thought she was crazy and continuing was a waste of time. "nice meltdown" being here the non sequitur obv
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Jun 25, 2018 10:35
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wow. someone's economically angry at me again why do centrists love giving people swastika avatars. do they love fascism that much? Condiv fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 10:41
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Centrist: Everything is fascism except actual fascism, which is fine.
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Jun 25, 2018 10:53
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Condiv posted:wow. someone's economically angry at me again Just... genuinely confused because the only person who's been talking about Manchin is you. Unless you're actually for real trying to pull some "MAYBE IT IS YOU WHO IS THE REAL RACIST?" schtick.
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Jun 25, 2018 11:04
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Condiv commited the crime of not wanting to support a fash enabler even though the fash enabler has a D next to his name, which is like super MAGA fascist or something.
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Jun 25, 2018 11:05
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TBF I also don't see how Condiv concluded that Waffle Maus was a Manchin defender from the conversation they had.
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Jun 25, 2018 11:12
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steinrokkan posted:TBF I also don't see how Condiv concluded that Waffle Maus was a Manchin defender from the conversation they had. quote:pointing to a racist WV republican the dem establishment somehow has leverage on "we can get manchin to vote with us sometimes!" is an extremely common defense of how absolutely lovely he is that i frequently hear from centrists
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Jun 25, 2018 11:21
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Condiv posted:wow. someone's economically angry at me again close your eyes and think of lowtax' healthcare bills
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Jun 25, 2018 11:21
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