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Noir89 posted:I have nothing against points but manually promoting/converting/moving pops sounds tedious af.
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Jun 25, 2018 17:24
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Johan is openly saying you won't like Paradox games if you don't want Mana based systems, so thems the breaks, anyway.
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Jun 25, 2018 17:46
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if paradox ever make a grand strategy fantasy game where you're a mighty wizard i promise i'll refer to MP as monarch points
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Jun 25, 2018 17:51
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Noir89 posted:I have nothing against points but manually promoting/converting/moving pops sounds tedious af.
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Jun 25, 2018 18:03
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As soon as anyone uses the word "mana" unironically I immediately disregard what they have to say because it's always bad.
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Jun 25, 2018 18:12
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Prav posted:if paradox ever make a grand strategy fantasy game where you're a mighty wizard i promise i'll refer to MP as monarch points
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Jun 25, 2018 18:12
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ExtraNoise posted:As soon as anyone uses the word "mana" unironically I immediately disregard what they have to say because it's always bad.
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Jun 25, 2018 18:20
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Look, given that you exist as the true power behind supposed rulers and are clearly hundreds of years old by the end of each game, what do these people think you are if NOT a wizard?
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Jun 25, 2018 18:23
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I use "mana" sometimes because points as a word by itself could confuse newbies as to your score or something and "mana" make it explicitly clear I'm referring to generalized points. Though as in my previous post I always point out they're called points. I could use monarch points but that's offensive to republics you loving legislophobic fuckwads.
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Jun 25, 2018 18:29
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Jazerus posted:because during large parts of this time period the majority of roman subjects were not citizens and we know so little about the societal structure of other contemporary states that imposing the roman model on everyone is much easier than any alternative
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Jun 25, 2018 18:55
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As long as I can depopulate entire regions into ash wastes I will be satisfied. Especially Carthage. 
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Jun 25, 2018 18:57
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AtomikKrab posted:As long as I can depopulate entire regions into ash wastes I will be satisfied.
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Jun 25, 2018 19:06
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AtomikKrab posted:As long as I can depopulate entire regions into ash wastes I will be satisfied.
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Jun 25, 2018 19:53
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AtomikKrab posted:As long as I can sacrifice entire cities to the great rain god Tlaloc and build holy pyramids on the mass graves I will be satisfied.
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Jun 25, 2018 19:58
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Redeye Flight posted:Look, given that you exist as the true power behind supposed rulers and are clearly hundreds of years old by the end of each game, what do these people think you are if NOT a wizard? So what if you play CK2 and take the Scholarship lifestyle and join the Hermetic Society? What are you, like, a double wizard?
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Jun 25, 2018 20:03
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To be honest it really sounds like Dominions would be more your jam, here
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Jun 25, 2018 20:17
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Mana is fine and a useful abstraction. What's not fine and a useful abstraction is having nine thousand different kinds of mana that don't interact with each other in any way. IMO when most people say they hate mana they mean they hate EUIV's bars-filling bloat and how the DLC model means all the systems feel really tacked on, which is entirely fair but OTOH is a criticism of EUIV and no other current paradox game. I guess there's more SLIIIDEEEERS  types on the forums though.Like I like pops but Development would be fine if it wasn't just a mana points sink and in some way reacted to things like trade and war, which it doesn't, because it's a DLC feature that's got to remain static for all eternity. spectralent fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 20:36
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ExtraNoise posted:As soon as anyone uses the word "mana" unironically I immediately disregard what they have to say because it's always bad. Yep this 100%, it's never too late to go post on reddit or paradoxplaza where this biting commentary (lol mana kebab lol) will be welcome
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Jun 25, 2018 20:38
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spectralent posted:Mana is fine and a useful abstraction. Yeah I’m surprised EU4 does so well because while Vicky and HoI are more my speed I still like CK2 and even Stellaris nowadays but I don’t think I’ve ever made it to 1500 in an EU4 game. It’s just so... bland
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Jun 25, 2018 20:38
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Shark Sandwich posted:Yeah I’m surprised EU4 does so well because while Vicky and HoI are more my speed I still like CK2 and even Stellaris nowadays but I don’t think I’ve ever made it to 1500 in an EU4 game. It’s just so... bland I dunno, EUIV's good for war but there's no game outside conquering everything. Which is kinda true of HOI I guess but that's lots more in depth and has tanks.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:40
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imperator might be the game that finally unleashes my inner pedant paradox forums-goer. "Citizen" being distinguished from plebs is gonna make me burst a blood vessel
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Jun 25, 2018 20:43
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Shark Sandwich posted:Yeah I'm surprised EU4 does so well because while Vicky and HoI are more my speed I still like CK2 and even Stellaris nowadays but I don’t think I’ve ever made it to 1500 in an EU4 game. It’s just so... bland It does flat country-country play the best out of any Paradox game. CK2 is characters, Vicky is internal development, HOI is war. They all overlap to some degree of course but EU4 has the best geo-political diplomatic etc gameplay out of all of them, and there's really not any other game that does it. The period in world history with an ever expanding world and so on is really suitable for the kind of game it is too. Plus the countries and historical context fill in a lot of the gaps and stop it from being bland for a lot of people; I think if there was a game with the same mechanics (or even significantly better ones!) but in a made up world it wouldn't do anywhere near as well. spectralent posted:IMO when most people say they hate mana they mean they hate EUIV's bars-filling bloat and how the DLC model means all the systems feel really tacked on Honestly I don't think that's true, at least for the most vocal people. On the Paradox forums they really do just hate the abstraction of it; people are even oddly insistent on stuff like precise population numbers, which seems super odd to me as something to get hung up on and yet it's a consistent complaint. In Total War titles too.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:45
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Koramei posted:Honestly I don't think that's true, at least for the most vocal people. On the Paradox forums they really do just hate the abstraction of it; people are even oddly insistent on stuff like precise population numbers, which seems super odd to me as something to get hung up on and yet it's a consistent complaint. In Total War titles too. I guess those people just like being wrong 
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Jun 25, 2018 20:46
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Koramei posted:It does flat country-country play the best out of any Paradox game. CK2 is characters, Vicky is internal development, HOI is war. They all overlap to some degree of course but EU4 has the best geo-political diplomatic etc gameplay out of all of them, and there's really not any other game that does it. The period in world history with an ever expanding world and so on is really suitable for the kind of game it is too. Plus the countries and historical context fill in a lot of the gaps and stop it from being bland for a lot of people; I think if there was a game with the same mechanics (or even significantly better ones!) but in a made up world it wouldn't do anywhere near as well. Yeah I think my problem is Vicky 2 and DH Kaiserreich were the first two Paradox games I played so the lack of internal stuff sticks out to me in EU4. It just feels like if you’re not at war you’re just waiting around
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Jun 25, 2018 20:47
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spectralent posted:Like I like pops but Development would be fine if it wasn't just a mana points sink and in some way reacted to things like trade and war, which it doesn't, because it's a DLC feature that's got to remain static for all eternity. They've been very heavily teasing that this may no longer be the case after Dharma which would be cool. But yeah agreed the only thing I inherently prefer about pops over development is allowing provinces to not be monolithic blocks of the same culture and religion.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:49
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What issues do people actually have with monarch points, anyway? You need some kind of way of limiting the player's ability to take actions and make them wait until they can do stuff again, and monarch points fill that need well.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:50
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Noir89 posted:I have nothing against points but manually promoting/converting/moving pops sounds tedious af. Yeah
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Jun 25, 2018 20:52
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spectralent posted:Like I like pops but Development would be fine if it wasn't just a mana points sink and in some way reacted to things like trade and war, which it doesn't, because it's a DLC feature that's got to remain static for all eternity. Development itself is not a DLC feature and it is tied into most of the game's core systems. It does react to stuff like war, especially when it comes to hordes razing towns. It's probably good that there aren't too many things that lower it, tbh. That could get frustrating fast. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 20:55
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RabidWeasel posted:But yeah agreed the only thing I inherently prefer about pops over development is allowing provinces to not be monolithic blocks of the same culture and religion. Seeing some persistence in a pop that's migrating from one province to another would be a pretty big thing, especially in this period. Honestly I don't love it but I'm mostly ambivalent to manual promotion/conversion (not like this was a period noted for its social mobility), but if you have to move them manually too then that's a huge knock against one of the most interesting parts of the system.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:57
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Development itself is not a DLC feature and it is tied into most of the game's core systems. I'm not sure how pedantic this is at first glance. Like yes, provinces have a development level regardless, but you can't interact with it in any without the dlc Also development being completely static without MP investment is lame. I won't call for full on population details like someone mentioned earlier but manpower if nothing else should fluctuate through the course of a game
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Jun 25, 2018 20:57
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Funky Valentine posted:As long as I can sacrifice entire cities to the great rain god Tlaloc and build holy pyramids on the mass graves I will be satisfied. I'm already working on a Imperator total conversion mod that takes place in post-apoc North America and one of the religions is Mexicayotl, which I believe brings back the Azteca pantheon. So... hopefully you'll be able to legit do this. I kind of want people to be able to do this.
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Jun 25, 2018 20:58
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Jackie D posted:I'm not sure how pedantic this is at first glance. Like yes, provinces have a development level regardless, but you can't interact with it in any without the dlc The ability to interact with it is largely useless beyond the ability to seed institutions, though. I agree that not letting people interact with development unless they have Common Sense is dumb, but the ability to do so isn't actually useful for much, and I'm not sure the game would be better if development was more dynamic. I sort of prefer my provinces being largely static in value. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 21:00
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Jackie D posted:I'm not sure how pedantic this is at first glance. Like yes, provinces have a development level regardless, but you can't interact with it in any without the dlc you can't manually add development points to it without the DLC. them adding systems that dynamically affect the values themselves wouldn't have to be related to that.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:00
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Gort posted:What issues do people actually have with monarch points, anyway? You need some kind of way of limiting the player's ability to take actions and make them wait until they can do stuff again, and monarch points fill that need well. imo there are two somewhat reasonable complaints regarding monarch points. One is that leaving it up to rng to determine your mp income can be an obnoxious pain, but I think that's sufficiently mitigated by letting you abdicate/disinherit/hire advisors/set point focus. Historically it's not unreasonable to say that the aptitude of the state's chief executive (ie, the monarch) was one of the most important determinants of success and failure, and it helps vary the pace of a very long campaign. the other complaint, I guess, is that there are just too many instances where you use monarch points, and that it can be kind of lazy mechanically or just bland. Sometimes the game might actually be better served by being willing to dip its toe into a more simulationist framework. I'm more sympathetic to this angle. MEIOU's estate and development mechanics, for instance, are awkward and jury-rigged because of how much they're trying to do, but I actually think they are genuinely more interesting and more flavorful than vanilla and if they had paradox's dev polish I'd prefer it in a heartbeat
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Jun 25, 2018 21:00
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Development itself is not a DLC feature and it is tied into most of the game's core systems. Okay, sure, development isn't DLC, but the only way the game lets you meaningfully interact with development is a DLC feature, so it can't meaningfully change due to the DLC model. Like, if another DLC or update was going to make development change with trade power, or something, it'd be altering a DLC feature. I don't think I've had horde razing come up in 90% of EUIV games I've played, so I feel like in spirit development changes end up being another orphan mechanic. I feel like it'd obviously be better for immersion and a degree of historical accuracy if development changed. It feels kind of insane that, unless you want to waste a bunch of mana, you can dominate world trade in multiple goods and have undisputed hegemony of the world and your capital is probably still poo poo. spectralent fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 21:12
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Sky Shadowing posted:I have a feeling they're flipping their poo poo about the introduction of points/"mana" ala EU4, right? Obviously Vic3 will have pop points where pops have their own pool of points which can be used for various activities such as building factories, supporting insurgencies, or joining political parties. The caveat here is that the player can't direct how the pops will spend their points at all, just influence it at best. Just have to fix that annoying bug where the capitalists keep trying to elect a 0/0/0 Fascist just because the liberal party does a social reform. 
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Jun 25, 2018 21:30
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Gort posted:What issues do people actually have with monarch points, anyway? You need some kind of way of limiting the player's ability to take actions and make them wait until they can do stuff again, and monarch points fill that need well. It used to be worse when you had no way of manipulating or changing it, it was just an arbitrary income you had no way of influencing. It's..okay, now, but as others have said, it's morphed into kind of a lazy catch-all abstraction. Honestly, more kinds of mana is probably preferable to figuring out why reducing autonomy doesn't cost admin but coring does, or why it's diplo to reduce war exhaustion but admin to raise stability. EDIT: People who shut down when they unironically hear "mana" are just really bad at discussing games and have no opinions with depth, hth.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:14
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Beamed posted:EDIT: People who shut down when they unironically hear "mana" are just really bad at discussing games and have no opinions with depth, hth. No, you are choosing to assign a dumb pejorative term and consider it clever and you expect people to engage in discourse while being ridiculous, it's not going to happen You can call it fart poopy points because you're so mad at them and I'm going to call you ridiculous when I read you call them fart poopy points and assume that you are not worth talking to because your brain thinks "lmao, fart poopy points, this will make Johan realize how dumb he is" dude, mana, just like final fantasy, wow paradox is console trash for kiddies  , what biting commentary thanks for this.
Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 23:23
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I don't mind mana. What I don't like is the approach to mana Paradox took in EU4 DLC. They want all the DLC to be modular because they don't want you to have to buy ALL the DLC to enjoy the game, so they don't hook all the systems together too tightly. But the result of this is a thousand different point pools that only do one thing each and barely interact with each other.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:28
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Ham Sandwiches posted:No, you are choosing to assign a dumb pejorative term and consider it clever and you expect people to engage in discourse while being ridiculous, it's not going to happen nice meltdown
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Jun 25, 2018 23:29
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