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Blocking regiments were to round up people deserting from battle, not men with guns loving shooting people in the back like in Warhammer 40k. Most caught would be disciplined and returned to the front.
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Jun 24, 2018 19:21
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Citation needed. Antony Beevor gives the number of 10,000 Soviet soldiers executed during Stalingrad in Stalingrad, that's roughly the size of a Soviet infantry division at the time.
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Jun 24, 2018 19:39
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Antony Beevor gives the number of 10,000 Soviet soldiers executed during Stalingrad in Stalingrad, that's roughly the size of a Soviet infantry division at the time. What's Beevor's citation point to?
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Jun 24, 2018 19:43
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Beevor is OK but I know in the past he's had his knuckles rapped for overlooking stuff or taking second hand sources a little too uncritically. He writes good history, but he's not infallible and I don't know that i'd lean on him as the final arbiter for things like statistics or precise figures.
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Jun 24, 2018 19:47
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Some light google-grade research has that number being pretty contested. Here's an english language article on it from Der Spiegel - http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/frank-interviews-with-red-army-soldiers-shed-new-light-on-stalingard-a-863229.html Apparently the Soviet archives only offer evidence of 300 executions in that area through October 42. Now, what percentage of field executions for cowardice would enter into the official record is open to debate. That said, I would also really need to see where Beevor is getting his figure from, as if he wasn't using Soviet archives then having such a precise figure becomes kind of problematic.
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Jun 24, 2018 19:52
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Cyrano4747 posted:What's Beevor's citation point to? I don't know, I can't find my copy and google books won't let me see the page with the source. If you search for "13,500 or "executed" it brings up the page numbers. https://books.google.com/books?id=7n1WnhX17GkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=13%2C500&f=false
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Jun 24, 2018 19:53
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Yeah, it's not like I disbelieve the Soviets shot a bunch of their own guys, but I don't think it was anywhere near 10,000 during a couple months in a single city.
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Jun 24, 2018 19:54
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I can see 10000 across the entirety of the war during that period, but not just in Stalingrad.
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Jun 24, 2018 20:31
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Hey. If I've understood correctly, volley fire tactics were invented only well after the introduction of the matchlock arquebus. How'd crossbowmen fight before guns became a thing in the first place?
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Jun 24, 2018 20:40
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Speaking of matchlocks, Matt Easton just posted a video of a demonstration about 15th-century firearms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6cAIFsJV_E Now since these things often tend to feature as many misconceptions as truths, is anything about this iffy? In particular, the first guy demonstrating the loading procedure holds the burning match right next to the barrel and pan as he's reloading, which as far as I can remember is kind of a no-no?
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Jun 24, 2018 20:55
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Siivola posted:Hey. If I've understood correctly, volley fire tactics were invented only well after the introduction of the matchlock arquebus. Are you sure? Massed volleys have a psychological effect no matter what the weapon. I'm pretty sure they were a thing with longbows for instance.
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Jun 24, 2018 20:59
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No, it's just something I read on Wikipedia after watching the video above.  The rain of arrows we see in the movies is a myth, though. Edit: Actually. Is there a good book on battlefield tactics around 1400 or so? I haven't the faintest clue about how medieval warfare actually works even though I pretend to know about sword combat. 
Siivola fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jun 24, 2018 |
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Jun 24, 2018 21:21
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The story I heard about that Stalingrad number was that they did hand out a bunch of death sentences for desertion, but deferred them on the basis of needing every warm body for the meatgrinder, and threw them back into the battle instead. Not sure where I got this from though.
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Jun 24, 2018 21:36
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feedmegin posted:Are you sure? Massed volleys have a psychological effect no matter what the weapon. I'm pretty sure they were a thing with longbows for instance. I'm pretty sure they knew about volleys but crossbowmen worked in teams of 2-3 and had a division of labor between shooting and loading which had an effect similar to the ranked fire drills of the older tercios- sustained fire.
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Jun 24, 2018 22:52
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these articles are extremely cool because they're about my research interests: violence, subcultures, social networks, and forms of living that combine greatness of soul with the pathetic and sordid https://www.salon.com/2018/06/24/lessons-from-the-fall-of-the-calabrian-mafia-organized-crime-is-global-and-flourishing/ https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/01/22/the-women-who-took-on-the-mafia
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Jun 25, 2018 00:46
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Ken Burns' The Vietnam War is up on Netflix now
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Jun 25, 2018 03:37
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Oh sweet Odin yesFangz posted:The story I heard about that Stalingrad number was that they did hand out a bunch of death sentences for desertion, but deferred them on the basis of needing every warm body for the meatgrinder, and threw them back into the battle instead. Stalingrad saw some of the first deployments of the penal battalions, so that makes sense. Soviet recruitment was a massive clusterfuck at this point, because troops from the western territories were considered too unreliable (christians, former capitalists who didn't grew up in the soviet system, nationalist ideas etc etc) for many duties, and up until that point the main initiatives to restore the defense were recruiting more politruks and telling them to tell troops the war was going fine - and death penalties for desertions real and imagined.
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Jun 25, 2018 11:05
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Given the archives are closed again we'll probably not know (I don't think 10-12k executions or constructive execution through penal battalion over the course of the Stalingrad campaign is totally outlandish given the total Soviet casualties suffered and that this is the period of Order 227). But you could write a book called 'interesting ways to lose a division' and fill it with things the STAVKA did during the war.
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Jun 25, 2018 11:53
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Which archives closed? As far as I know you can still get casualty lists per unit. Those include executions.
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Jun 25, 2018 15:43
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In my very cursory research into Red Army "not one step backwards" policy a couple months ago there were very, very few examples of formal justice and most of those that did occur were regimental or division commanders/staffs who chose to retreat instead of being annihilated. There is very little evidence about informal stuff. Summary executions didn't seem to be that common, but other forms of punishment, like ordering a battalion that misbehaved in some manner to do something quasi-suicidal, seemed to happen pretty regularly. You could say that it was an intelligent way of mass punishment: you get the same deterrent effect, and you might accomplish something tactically useful at the same time.
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Jun 25, 2018 15:48
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I don't think Meridale mentioned 10k executions in Stalingrad, and she would have hardly missed a thing like that. On a related topic, what can you tell me about penal units in other WWII armies?
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Jun 25, 2018 16:06
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JcDent posted:I don't think Meridale mentioned 10k executions in Stalingrad, and she would have hardly missed a thing like that. The Germans had their own penal units, for generally the same reasons. Convicts, deserters, etc. would have to spend a certain amount of time in a penal unit based on their crime. As one can imagine, these units did the dirtier work/were used as cannon fodder. Can't speak much about the extent of it all, but I did pick up a book on the subject that I've been slowly making my way towards.
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Jun 25, 2018 17:23
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Also, Stalin came up with the idea because he heard about the German penal units, or at least he mentions their efficacy in the order.
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Jun 25, 2018 17:41
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Great! Any famous works or names of German units considered penal? Did allies, Italians or Japanese have any? When did penal units vanish in modern warfare? In particular, it seemed really strange that Battlefield: Bad Company featured penal company in the modern US Army.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:01
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JcDent posted:When did penal units vanish in modern warfare? In particular, it seemed really strange that Battlefield: Bad Company featured penal company in the modern US Army. Penal units seem to be a wartime matter of expediency used when you are desperate for manpower and don't care about PR. There still are - and yes, I'm stretching the term - punishment units in the military. These are generally more like conventional prisons. Think "Leavenworth," or the infamous Long Binh Jail of the Vietnam war. There are also short-term punishment units. The USMC used to have something called "CC" - Correctional Custody - up to the mid-80's, and I believe that they either have or soon will reinstate it. It's for offenses less than a court-martial, and from all accounts is pretty miserable. Think "boot camp" combined with "chain gang." The Marines in it aren't sent into combat to "redeem themselves," but we aren't in a huge war of attrition... Edit: Brief article on CC here, count the euphemisms! Cessna fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 21:14
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JcDent posted:Great! Any famous works or names of German units considered penal? The infamous Dirlewanger brigade was one, no?
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Jun 25, 2018 21:27
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Fangz posted:The infamous Dirlewanger brigade was one, no? There's also the 500th SS Parachute Battalion: half volunteer, half "penal." Infamous for trying to kill Tito via a raid, which failed.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:35
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Ooo, that reminds me: I'll be writing a medium-length CYOA about the Vietnam War in Games. It's not going to be strictly historical, but if anyone can point me towards a resource of Vietnam memoirs (particularly US Army), it'd be much appreciated!
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Jun 25, 2018 21:38
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JcDent posted:Great! Any famous works or names of German units considered penal? Looking at the table of contents we have -Parole Units -Second Class Soldiers -Probation Units -999 Units -Field Custody Detachments -Punishment Trains -Field Special Battalions -Field Police -Wehrmacht Prisons Then, less broadly -SS Parachute Battalions --500th SS Parachute Battalion quote:Adolf Hitler supposedly got the idea in September 1943, after Operation Eiche ("Oak"). Operation Eiche was launched on 12 September and included an airborne raid on Gran Sasso. The operation was planned by Kurt Student. During this raid, a group of German parachutists freed deposed Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. Otto Skorzeny took part in the raid by command of German dictator Adolf Hitler. The raid included a daring military-based assault on the Campo Imperatore Hotel at Gran Sasso and managed to rescue Mussolini, only firing a single shot. --600th SS Parachute Battalion quote:The second Budapest mission, Operation Panzerfaust, can be said to have been, officially, the 600's first mission although the new battalion was not formally mustered until 9 November 1944 in Neu-Strelitz, their garrison town. The soldiers of the 500th who survived long enough to see the formation of the 600 were also given back their previous ranks and the right to wear the sig rune on 9 November 1944. --36th Waffen SS Grenadier Division quote:ed in some of World War II's most notorious campaigns of terror in Belarus, where it carved out a reputation within the Waffen-SS for committing atrocities. Numerous Army and SS commanders attempted to remove Dirlewanger from the SS and disband the unit, although he had patrons within the Nazi apparatus who intervened on his behalf. His unit took part in the destruction of Warsaw, and the massacre of ~100,000 of the city's population during the Warsaw Uprising; and participating in the brutal suppression of the Slovak National Uprising in 1944. Dirlewanger's formation generated fear throughout Waffen-SS organizations including the SS-Führungshauptamt (SS Command Headquarters) and earned notoriety as the most criminal and heinous SS unit in Hitler's war machine. --440th Sturm Division Rhodos quote:On 8 September 1943, the Italian garrison on the island of Kastelorizo surrendered to a British detachment, which was reinforced during the following days by ships of the Allied navies. The next day a British delegation, headed by Lord Jellicoe, was dropped by parachute on Rhodes, in order to persuade the Italian commander, Admiral Inigo Campioni, to join the Allies. This was followed by the immediate reaction of the most important German force in the Dodecanese, the 7,500-strong Assault Division "Rhodes" (Sturm-Division Rhodos) commanded by Generalleutnant Ulrich Kleemann, and stationed on the administrative center of the Dodecanese Islands, the Island of Rhodes. Without waiting for the Italians to decide, Kleemann attacked the 40,000-strong Italian garrison on 9 September, and forced it to surrender by 11 September. This successful operation earned him the Oakleaves to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. --502nd SS Light Infantry Battalion quote:Formed in June 1943, the unit was commanded by Otto Skorzeny and was based at Schloß (chateau) Friedenthal just north of Berlin in Sachsenhausen by Oranienburg, consisting originally of the three hundred members of the former (Provisional Special Unit Friedenthal) SS-Sonderverband z.b.V. Friedenthal (this was their official name until April 1944, then it was SS-Jäger-Bataillon 502 ) and Sonderlehrgang z.b.V. Oranienburg. After an unsuccessful attempt to train members of an SS penal facility, Skorzeny obtained permission to recruit volunteers from the Wehrmacht, and 100 SS personnel, 50 Luftwaffe and 150 Army personnel were admitted, allowing the formation of a headquarters company and two line companies. An intensive training programme was instituted. --999th Light Africa Division quote:The 999th Afrika Brigade was a German Army unit created in October 1942 as a penal military unit. It was later expanded into the 999th Light Afrika Division and began deploying to Tunisia in early 1943. However, this was interrupted by the surrender of Axis forces in that theater. Those elements that made it to Africa before the collapse fought as independent units rather than as a division, and were lost in the general collapse. The remainder were sent to Greece for garrison and anti-partisan duty,[1] where a number of those forced into service because of their anti-Nazi activities continued them, such as Falk Harnack, who deserted and formed the Anti-Fascist Committee for a Free Germany[2] with other soldiers. During the only fight many of the political prisoners in the division went over to the US troops or retreated, the US Army taking their positions without any heavy fighting. -Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe units After I'm done reading "Combat Over Spain" I could take a look at a chapter or two for more specifics, if you want.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:44
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JcDent posted:Great! Any famous works or names of German units considered penal? The most infamous German penal brigade was the probably the Dirlewanger Brigade, which was made up mostly of convicted murderers, rapists, and thieves. The brigade had a reputation among the Waffen-SS for sadism and cruelty (I'll let that sink in for a minute ), and a bunch of SS commanders tried to get them disbanded, but Himmler liked them, so...
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Jun 25, 2018 21:47
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Tias posted:It's not going to be strictly historical, but if anyone can point me towards a resource of Vietnam memoirs (particularly US Army), it'd be much appreciated! I recommend: Chickenhawk, by Mason, an army Helo pilot. Rumor of War, by Caputo, a junior USMC officer. No, not army, but a very good memoir. And if you're okay with "new journalism" try Dispatches by Herr.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:49
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Thanks a lot! I already ate my way through Matterhorn (3 times!) and Low Level Hell, both are really interesting perspectives IMO
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Jun 25, 2018 21:52
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Cessna posted:I recommend:
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Jun 25, 2018 21:57
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Depending on how you want to define "penal unit" you could also probably lump in the German POWs that were put to work after the war clearing minefields. There was a not insubstantial casualty rate doing that, and they were specifically used for the task due to a lot of people not wanting to get their own troops blown up post-war dealing with that BS.
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Jun 25, 2018 22:06
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Tias posted:Ooo, that reminds me: I'll be writing a medium-length CYOA about the Vietnam War in Games. It's not going to be strictly historical, but if anyone can point me towards a resource of Vietnam memoirs (particularly US Army), it'd be much appreciated! Vietnam: The definitive oral history by Christian G Appy. Has a huge array of short histories ranging from vietnamese peasants to William Westmoreland (He regrets nothing)
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Jun 25, 2018 22:09
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Thanks!Cyrano4747 posted:Depending on how you want to define "penal unit" you could also probably lump in the German POWs that were put to work after the war clearing minefields. There was a not insubstantial casualty rate doing that, and they were specifically used for the task due to a lot of people not wanting to get their own troops blown up post-war dealing with that BS. in fact, a Danish film ('under the sand') was recently made about just this, describing how we used teenage POWs to clear mines from our west berm, with predictably tragic results.
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Jun 25, 2018 22:10
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If you want oral histories, check out Al Santoli's Everything We Had and To Bear Any Burden. If you're willing to get outside of US soldier's accounts, for a woman civilian's point of view try Le Ly Hayslip's When Heaven and Earth Changed Places. Be warned, it's pretty grim. Also consider Last Night I Dreamed of Peace by Dang Thuy Tram, a posthumously published account from a Vietnamese woman doctor. These might be a bit much for a CYOA game, but they might help. (Finally, talking about a war I can recommend books on...)
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Jun 25, 2018 22:16
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Seconding Rumor of War. It's a very good memoir.
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Jun 25, 2018 22:23
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Night10194 posted:Seconding Rumor of War. It's a very good memoir. One of the reasons it really hits home with me is the brief bit of the book that takes place before he deploys to Vietnam with the initial landings at Da Nang. He's stationed at Camp Schwab, Okinawa, a small USMC base on the north part of the island. I did two tours there in the late 80's/early 90s (yeah, I'm old) and his descriptions were spot-on.
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Jun 25, 2018 22:29
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JcDent posted:On a related topic, what can you tell me about penal units in other WWII armies? I think the British called theirs the "Canadian" Corps.
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Jun 26, 2018 00:02
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