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I just don't get it lmfao. If I wrote a story with a mystery that was slowly teased out and had plenty of hints for the viewer to figure it out ahead of time, I'd be proud my work was noticed and that the people paying attention figured it out. I wouldn't be salty that people solved the clues I put in the loving show in the first place. They seem to have such a weird relationship with that part of the fanbase. 'Oh we're really happy you 'get' it but also we're pissed you 'got' it so well that you 'ruined' it for people who know full well reading about a show on the internet might spoil them'. Like ... if you don't want people to know William is MiB/in a diff timeline by episode 3 maybe don't put a bunch of super obvious clues in the first three episodes? Or did you want people to know?? I don't get ittttt Also whoever said above that they were under the impression Nolan and Joy said this season would be more straightforward (which tbf it was, it just had a really loving convoluted framing device and tried to obfsucate poo poo despite how simple the season was) with less twists and reveals, I'm pretty sure I read an interview or two about that as well and lmfao I'd like to see that season instead of what we got.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:01
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It's like everytime a TV sci fi or fantasy show goes "I have a great story to tell, it's already planned and it's all so awesome" it always fizzles out because TV writers are generally liars and if they don't have books to rely on then there's no loving way they've planned anything ahead for more than one season and the writing process generally revoles around the concept of "wouldn't it be cool if X thing happened? It would be such a mind gently caress!". Except for Babylon 5. Incidentally that's how GOT manages to be the ultimate troll show, it had books and now it doesn't. The Expanse is our only hope.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:13
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Sockser posted:Why does this season get dumber every day
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Jun 27, 2018 19:14
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I had the a-ha moment last season around episode 8 and it made the last few episodes more enjoyable. I'd rather that than a bog standard murder-mystery serial setup where you'll never figure it out until they give you the missing piece in the penultimate scene (a la any number of British crime mysteries). On the other hand, I don't remember thinking I should be looking for 'clues' early on in S1. It was more subtle than this season at least. One of the things Lost did right in (at least in S1 & S2) was give the impression that if you paid close enough attention, you'd be able to figure out some of the mysteries before they were revealed. I used to post on some Lost forum during S2 & S3 and after every episode, the subforum for theorizing was always overflowing with screenshots, discussion, research into the esoteric imagery they were using on the show, ARG tie-ins, etc. It wasn't until later that it became undeniable that there was no logic or consistency behind it; that it was all nonsense and there was no point trying to figure it out before they spoon-fed it to you.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:14
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I'm just impressed that future software can ignore things like shattered bones and torn muscles. The answer is nanobots isn't it.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:20
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It's like everytime a TV sci fi or fantasy show goes "I have a great story to tell, it's already planned and it's all so awesome" it always fizzles out because TV writers are generally liars and if they don't have books to rely on then there's no loving way they've planned anything ahead for more than one season and the writing process generally revoles around the concept of "wouldn't it be cool if X thing happened? It would be such a mind gently caress!". Except for Babylon 5. The guy who created Supernatural said “I have a plan for five seasons”, then did his five season plan and left. The show is in its, what, 13th or 14th season now, but the first five seasons will always be there as a self-complete story.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:22
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The Wire was p much all written out ahead of time too, wasn't it? (tho not a fantasy/sci fi show obvs) Some shows can plan ahead to varying degrees of detail and pull it off really well w/o changing much during production. Most shows which claim to can't, I think, due to either changing opinions of the writers once production is underway or looking at fan feedback and tweaking from there.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:24
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esperterra posted:The Wire was p much all written out ahead of time too, wasn't it? (tho not a fantasy/sci fi show obvs) I think, I could be wrong, but I think each season of The Wire was plotted out beforehand, but not the whole thing.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:26
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esperterra posted:The Wire was p much all written out ahead of time too, wasn't it? (tho not a fantasy/sci fi show obvs) I think the key is needing an actual plan for the major arc/theme of the show. Like I mentioned Breaking Bad because I've listened to the podcasts with the writers/directors and they admit they were writing themselves out of corners they had written themselves into, but they were able to pull it off because they knew the overall vision/plan for the show was "Take Mr. Chips and make him Scarface" and they just kept true to that vision. I have no idea what Westworld's vision is. There's half a dozen themes kicking around, fighting to be the central theme, but nothing truly wins out like it does in something with a more coherent vision.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:28
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I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. Like, what would have made you happy?
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Jun 27, 2018 19:30
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WampaLord posted:I think the key is needing an actual plan for the major arc/theme of the show. Yeah, Breaking Bad handled writing by the seat of their pants really well. It had some stinkers but they were always upfront about the fact they enjoyed writing the characters into corners and figuring out how those characters would claw their way out of them. Meanwhile Nolan & Joy claim to have 5 seasons planned yet still decide arbitrarily to turn a character who has been on the show since the pilot into a host the night before filming lmfao. Also didn't they admit they haven't decided who Dolores took out of the park yet? I'm pretty sure them having 'planned' the whole show is just them going 'we want this big thing to happen in this season and we know how it ends but we don't know how to get there or who will be there at the end'.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:33
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. Consistency. In season 2 itself but also consistency with the things it laid out in the season before it. The writing itself isn't that bad (beyond hammy/awkward dialogue, which S1 had) but the way they frame things to obfsucate stuff, or decide to change things in ways that reflect badly on the season that came before, leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. I still love the show but it's a hot loving mess and I'm mostly here for the actors at this point.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:35
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Accretionist posted:I'm betting William and his daughter will be a sentimental tale. He rebuilds his daughter. She rebuilds him. I'm bookmarking this so I can quote it next season when this exact thing happens...
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Jun 27, 2018 19:43
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. Google westworld reviews *or read this thread Preferably the first one
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Jun 27, 2018 19:46
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Man the funniest thing about Stubbs being a host is it could have fixed one of my major issues with the shady editing of S1 they employed to hide the two timelines: Stubbs flagging Dolores w/ behaviour and sending someone to retrieve her in the present, then that plot point being dropped entirely after we see a Delos employee approach her in the past. At first I was like, oh, cool, Stubbs being a host now means he must have only pretended to flag her w/ behaviour last year or gone back and undone the order afterward so nobody would bring her i-- oh, he was never planned to be a host from the start and it was just a spur of the moment decision night before filming, so that's still just a plothole as dumb as Dolores magically finding the same change of clothes in both timelines? o-okay ... S2 was just a season full of that weird shady editing that rubbed me the wrong way.
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Jun 27, 2018 19:46
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An Ounce of Gold posted:This show's writing went SOUTH so fast it should be retitled to Bad Writing World... Wait I had something here. wankworld
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Jun 27, 2018 19:47
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. Actually having some poo poo planned out would help. See: basically every twist this season, including poo poo that retroactively made s1 look worse like Abernathy's brain data. When things aren't consistent from season to season(or sometimes episode to episode), it gets real dire. Don't just have twists for the sake of twists.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:10
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To be fair... (skip to 1:38) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LahfTsySCZc I'm not saying that makes this season good, but the moments of brilliance were still there. (Although I am struck by the show's ability to include these moments of brilliance amongst the mess that is season 2.)
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Jun 27, 2018 20:13
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esperterra posted:They seem to have such a weird relationship with that part of the fanbase. 'Oh we're really happy you 'get' it but also we're pissed you 'got' it so well that you 'ruined' it for people who know full well reading about a show on the internet might spoil them'. Like ... if you don't want people to know William is MiB/in a diff timeline by episode 3 maybe don't put a bunch of super obvious clues in the first three episodes? Or did you want people to know?? I don't get ittttt It's doubly weird because a good twist is the kind of thing you watch again and see that all the signs were right in front of you the whole time (like The Sixth Sense and not like the Stubbs reveal) Of course in the internet age with tons of people pouring over every frame, someone's gonna figure it out- but again, that's the sign it was a good twist... The really sad thing is that Reddit actually came up with some better ideas than what the writers had. They were looking at the mix-ups with what hosts where shot and in what order in ep1 and thinking that Stubbs & Co found out Bernie was a host and were running him through a "wake up on the beach" loop to figure out what he knew. Turns out they were simple continuity errors...
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Jun 27, 2018 20:14
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How are u posted:Like, what would have made you happy? I would have been happy if they would have used the talent and money at their disposal to actually tell stories instead of doing a circle jerk in the writers room
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Jun 27, 2018 20:16
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Oh also whoever else it was who noticed the mansion Dolores and Bernard approach looking like Sophie-Ann's mansion in True Blood: tis indeed the same place. Now I just wish they'd let ERW chew as much scenery as Wyatt as she did in TB.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:35
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Fried Watermelon posted:So everything we've ever seen of MiB could be considered a simulation? Yea I thought this for the last couple episodes. But I didn't think they were going to do a real one and a simulated one cut together. Ugh. That trick is getting tedious. I mean poo poo, the MIB stuff being a simulation explains how he walks through the door and is suddenly on a train in the second episode of the series. All the scenes with young william in the park could have been simulations. Maybe MIB is eternally running through his whole life that he spent in the park. Maybe the hosts are looking for something in there?
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Jun 27, 2018 20:35
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I don't really care for stories that are all out of order, chronologically. I barely tolerated it in season 1, but at least the point of that was a reveal that two characters were the same. And it was bugging me through season 2.... but then it made sense by the end, because it was reflecting Bernard's timestamp-wiped mind. Ok. Ok. I guess that makes it interesting. I hope S3 is a bit more of a straight-forward story, not relying on chronological fuckery.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:37
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. I think the first season is brilliant and episodes 4, 8, and 9 of S2 were brilliant and they were mostly not central to the main plot. I wanted a season that at least feels like it was written by the same team the way those standout episodes did.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:39
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Huh, ok. I guess my standards are just a lot lower than some of youse guys.  I suppose its not a bad thing to be so easily entertained!
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Jun 27, 2018 20:51
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I think my main issue is the divide between the writers acting as if they're making super smart television and not delivering. If they weren't so up their asses about it, it wouldn't bug me quite as much.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:56
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How are u posted:Huh, ok. I guess my standards are just a lot lower than some of youse guys. Season 1 gave a lot of us high standards because it was actually written well. I mean if you enjoy just not thinking about the show and watching it for shooty bang bangs, you do you, but the show itself constantly invites us to think deeply about it.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:58
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WampaLord posted:Season 1 gave a lot of us high standards because it was actually written well. Except most of the bang-bang scenes this season were pretty dumb too
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Jun 27, 2018 21:05
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WampaLord posted:Season 1 gave a lot of us high standards because it was actually written well. Perhaps you should try getting into reading Philosophy, because the only show that I've ever seen that actually delivered on the depth and nuance you (guys in general) seem to expect was The Wire. And that's a once-in-a-generation piece of art. Are there some examples of other shows that demonstrate the level of quality that you guys are looking for?
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Jun 27, 2018 21:11
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. I still liked it, enjoyed the hell out of it when it aired. It's only after when I think "why were the confederados even there? Dolores could have just pushed on to the Mesa without them..." Or "why were Hale and the creepy tech dude trying to get the encryption key out of Abernathy's head when they could have just popped a pearl-extraction helmet on him, grabbed his pearl and fled as soon as the hosts started attacking..." Or even "why did Delos need to get the key out of the park in the first place, and why not just walk out with the pearl like Haleores did at the end?" Or how in ShogunWorld they mourn the death of Clem's doppelganger, even though Maeve and the techs could just wake her back up... they end up showing that even shooting a host in the head doesn't kill them. (which kills any dramatic tension for the characters...) It did feel like a lot of filler, the ShogunWorld episode was cool, but they coulda just cut it and it wouldn't have really affected the plot any. But there were good episodes too, the Akecheta episode was fantastic and heartbreaking. I feel like they simply need to sit down and think things through for next season, instead of winging it so much. Like they started the Abernathy passenger plot-line without really having any idea what he was smuggling out and why. I loved Lost, but they had the same problem of making cool mysteries without really putting any thought into what the answers were.
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Jun 27, 2018 21:14
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How are u posted:Are there some examples of other shows that demonstrate the level of quality that you guys are looking for? I've mentioned Breaking Bad like 3 times now. Early Game of Thrones, like until Season 4 or so, also works.
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Jun 27, 2018 21:14
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WampaLord posted:I've mentioned Breaking Bad like 3 times now. Hey those are good points. I'm not a Breaking Bad fanboy but I watched it and enjoyed most of it (dragged in parts). Game o' Thrones' first few seasons were top notch, that's a fact. I'd agree that those are both a step up from Westworld, though for me personally I wouldn't say a tremendously big one. Like, if somebody asked me if they should watch BB, GoT, or Westworld I would tell them to go for it because they're all enjoyable. I think I understand now that many of y'all are a little grumpy because you believe that Westworld had the opportunity to be something much better and isn't. To which I can say I get where you're coming from, but also don't care because I'm still personally enjoying it a lot for what it is. Look at all these stupid words I typed on the internet about nothing important 
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Jun 27, 2018 21:28
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How are u posted:I think I understand now that many of y'all are a little grumpy because you believe that Westworld had the opportunity to be something much better and isn't. Bingo. It's the missed potential that stings the most.
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Jun 27, 2018 21:30
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I'm grumpy because I'm annoyed with the whole 'epic fiction' device of constructing the narrative around a cascade of mindfucks that are allegedly all supposed to connect to one another but then it turns out that they totally don't and that none of them actually matters.
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Jun 27, 2018 22:06
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KoRMaK posted:Yea I thought this for the last couple episodes. But I didn't think they were going to do a real one and a simulated one cut together. Ugh. That trick is getting tedious. Quick, hide that Assassins Creed game from Jon Nolan.
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Jun 27, 2018 22:11
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Firebert posted:That was...terrible i'm with this guy
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Jun 27, 2018 22:16
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I started this show 2 weeks ago and just finished s2 today so everything is really fresh. S1 was nearly perfect and then they go and absolutely bottle it. They were trying to go for some deeper philosophical underpinnings than the "what does it mean to be human?" Stuff from S1 and it just never turned into anything. The characters were all just standing in place for most of the season and everyone felt like cardboard cutouts outside of like Maeve and William. Everything was either really stupid or really predictable. The show became a parody of itself and the stakes becoming real didnt matter when every non protagonist was just transformed into stoemtroopers so there wasn't ever any tension. Like seriously, the loving Delos QA teams being so incompetent is out of a syfy original movie and got old extremely quick. The showrunners were really yearning for some deep meditation on the soul moments and it all fell flat.
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Jun 27, 2018 22:18
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Just trust me, this will all be explained succinctly in season 3...
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Jun 27, 2018 22:20
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How are u posted:I'm curious as to what all of y'all who keep harping on about the show's writing being a huge failure and dogshit and basically the holocaust on TV etc etc are actually looking for. I legit liked S2 in that I was very entertained the whole way and am looking forward to S3. But it was a disaster from a storytelling standpoint. I just want some internal consistency. S2 was so full of macguffins and random cool sci-fi poo poo that was there for the sake of being sci-fi poo poo that it ruined the story, and worse made much of S1 pointless or illogical. Cradle, encryption key, forge, fidelity, who cares if it's all not in service to a well-told story? I also feel that S1 had an extremely strong sense of place - Sweetwater and the buried church town in particular. S2 was a bunch of sci-fi setpieces with no love put into them. Oh and Shogunworld cuz why not? I love nonlinear storytelling and unreliable narration, but they have to be there for a good reason. 'To stump Reddit' is not a good reason. S2 would have suffered nothing if it was told linearly with flashbacks and it probably would have been better. Plus the pacing was really weird and it somehow felt both rushed and overly drawn out. Ok that's more my list of complaints than what I wanted to see, but that's simple - a well-told story that explored the themes introduced in S1 and didn't sacrifice story for cool visuals and dumb nonsensical puzzles.
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Jun 27, 2018 23:09
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Here's my fan fiction: season 3 episode 1 starts where we left off with Bernard going out into the world. He notices inconsistencies like no mention anywhere of Westworld or what happened there. The episode ends with Bernard waking up in the Forge. The MiB has stopped the countdown. Dolores is still plugged in. We learn that everything that happened after Bernard shot Dolores was a simulation triggered by the Forge attempting to make a copy of a host instead of a guest, creating something analogous to a dream in which Bernard was living. Dolores is in her own dream, maybe it's one where Bernard joins her and they conquer the world or some bullshit, it doesn't matter. Bernard's dream was one in which he gets to undo a mistake AND position himself as the Ying to a powerful creator-figure's Yang a la Arnold and Ford, which is what matters. It's like poetry, it rhymes. The MiB explains that The Door was a failsafe to identify and deal with Hosts who became aware of a world outside their own. The rest of the season proceeds to actually deal with the morality and consequences of making digital clones of real people. If we do leave the park, we enter a world that acknowledges the implications of technology such as Westworld's actually existing. Like the Forge has been operational for years so maybe S3 deals with the paranoia of finding out the whole world has been imperceptibly altered by Delos. i'll take a producer credit HBO your'e welcome just another fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 23:09
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