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What's not clear to me is, how did we know what order the geysers were in? Assigning timings to names is one thing, but assigning names to the order they're encountered in is another. Seconding the suggestion to use Time magic here. Let's make like Fry and solve the problem in a matter of subjective seconds, except without the coffee hangover.
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Jun 25, 2018 16:56
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:What's not clear to me is, how did we know what order the geysers were in? Assigning timings to names is one thing, but assigning names to the order they're encountered in is another. It's already been mentioned in the clues: The three individual geyser combinations given to us must overlap because there is only five of them, and only one of the two possibilities to arrange them is correct. It is a clever logic puzzle, just that the context for it makes no sense whatsoever. I mean what is there is to stop us from crossing any of the geysers ASAP after they blow up since there is at least a minute of a safe window without convenient narrative bullshit happening to prevent us so.
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Jun 25, 2018 18:01
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I also tried to solve the geyser puzzle using a grid and, as mentioned, I just couldn't. As for the inn we could use Earth to starve the fire from oxygen. 
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Jun 25, 2018 19:03
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The inn is a lost cause. Let the fire run its course and then use spirit to interrogate the ghosts of the deceased 
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Jun 25, 2018 19:11
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I'll take the metaphorical bullet by going for the obvious water, just to see how entertaining the resulting death is.
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Jun 25, 2018 19:30
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also I want to cast spirit and take a good swig from it
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Jun 25, 2018 19:37
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The game's from 1989, so I can't be mad (heh) at the lack of Heart magic.
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Jun 25, 2018 19:45
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Wait for the inn to burn down and use lightning to pick off the survivors.
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Jun 26, 2018 00:14
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Join the bucket brigade. Why use magic when buckets work?
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Jun 26, 2018 00:20
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Ratoslov posted:Join the bucket brigade. Why use magic when buckets work? What kind of question is this?! Always use magic regardless of whether a more practical mundane solution presents itself. 
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Jun 26, 2018 00:29
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Come to think of it, if buckets work, then it's probably not a grease fire.
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Jun 26, 2018 00:50
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ManxomeBromide posted:Come to think of it, if buckets work, then it's probably not a grease fire. It's a really big grease fire, they need a lot of buckets to cover it.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:43
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Level Three: AirBnB In which we (eventually) get around to putting out that fire, then learn a crucial clue from an ancient source, without which our quest is surely doomed. Straight White Shark posted:What kind of question is this?! Always use magic regardless of whether a more practical mundane solution presents itself. 
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Jun 26, 2018 02:36
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On the plus side, Cold technically succeeded, and that's really what counts here. 
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Jun 26, 2018 02:47
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Nakar posted:Hell yes. We didn't pick up the Talisman of Chugotai to not use it at every opportunity, no matter how needless or dumb. We Have A Talisman And Wish To Use It.
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Jun 26, 2018 03:41
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So the tailsman is just the writer trolling us when he feels like it. Using Time can also freeze everyone but the fire while the magic also reverts you back to a time where you had never been born, and it will make just as much nonsense as the other bad choices.
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Jun 26, 2018 10:44
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Palladium posted:So the tailsman is just the writer trolling us when he feels like it.
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Jun 26, 2018 13:03
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Level Three: The Frozen Lands In which we explore a new and inhospitable land, climb a ladder, and find a vast sea, because MadMaze. Palladium posted:So the tailsman is just the writer trolling us when he feels like it. It's a plot device, and we don't know for which plot most of the time. Zereth posted:I get the feeling that the player character is basically doing the magical equivalent of choosing to push a one of nine buttons labeled "EARTH" "AIR" TIME" etc.
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Jun 26, 2018 15:50
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The letters look like R, E and D to me.
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Jun 26, 2018 16:08
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Nakar posted:I mean... that's exactly what it's doing, so it just having a bunch of buttons like some cheap electronic toy isn't far off.
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Jun 26, 2018 16:12
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Definitely RED.
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Jun 27, 2018 07:51
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Level Three: My Dad, The Whale In which we get in touch with nature, then kill and eat it. Quite a lot to do in the next couple of floors, both of which are technically accessible at this point. However, there is a very clear order in which things should be done, even if the game itself isn't clear about it, so we'll be dealing with that as we go. Coming up is that puzzle. The one I've been dreading. The one that puzzles me. Confuses me. The one that might not be properly solvable (even after cheating). But with your collective help, maybe we can find a way.
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Jun 27, 2018 15:11
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So I guess according to the giant stone head, we're a whale now?
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Jun 27, 2018 16:28
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I still can't get over how much of a dickhead this game will let us be. It's like someone played Ultima, then a Sierra adventure game, and thought: "Wow, I wish I could be as much of an antisocial dickhead as I was in Ultima to these characters."
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Jun 27, 2018 17:00
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I kind of hope that throughout the entire game air is always a correct answer as a spell to use, for increasingly convoluted reasons. Burning building? Use air! Language barrier? Air will fix it! Need to convince a Lady of Stars that you did not in fact murder her greatest friend the giant whale? Why not try air?
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Jun 27, 2018 17:50
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Level Three: Bears, Stars, And One Rat-Bastard Dragon In which we wander the tundra, see the sights both pretty and profound, gain Star Woman's favor despite that whole nuking Father Whale thing, and run into one of the worst puzzles in this game. I'll be honest: I have no idea whether this puzzle is fully solvable. Gridding helps, as does the "cheat" in the alternate solution section, and you should be able to narrow it down, but whether you can get the answer 100% without guessing is something I wasn't able to determine the last time I did this.
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Jun 28, 2018 00:40
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I'll give this my best shot once I'm in a better position to do so.
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Jun 28, 2018 01:19
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 At least 1 out of 3 polar bears will sniff the air while standing.
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Jun 28, 2018 01:21
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I haven't looked at the spoiler hint yet but I think it's definitely solvable with that hint. Trying to wrap my head around if it's doable without.
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Jun 28, 2018 01:24
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All right. The Dragon of the Forest has the golden hoard (it's not the youngest dragon, thus doesn't have a silver hoard, and it doesn't have the electrum hoard, since that belongs to its kid; thus it can only have the golden hoard left from metals); E isn't the Dragon of the Peaks (if I am parsing the fear of heights clue correctly). The hoards of gems belong to the Dragons of Ice and Fire. The Dragon of the Plains hates the dragon with the golden hoard... and we know that the dragon with the golden hoard is the Dragon of the Forest, who gets along with its family, which includes the electrum hoard. Since both the gem hoards belong to Ice and Fire, the Dragon of the Plains has the silver hoard. Then, we now know that the Dragon of the Plains is not B, C, or D. (It hates B, C is part of its enemy's family, and D is older than it.) This means the Dragon of the Plains is Alain, with the silver hoard. All right. C is either the Dragon of Ice or Fire (by age, it can't be any of the metal hoard dragons, and the gem hoards belong to the ice and fire dragons). E, D, and A cannot be the Dragon of Ice or Fire (E has a metal hoard, D is younger, we already know A is the Dragon of the Plains.) By elimination, this means B and C are the Dragons of Ice and Fire (in no particular order). The Dragon of the Peaks must be the child of the Dragon of the Forest, and I'm guessing it's not E. This leaves two dragons with metal hoards it could be, A or D, but we already know A is the Dragon of the Plains. Thus, the Dragon of the Peaks is Demout, with an electrum hoard. This only leaves Ebert to be the Forest Dragon, with a golden hoard. This, unfortunately, leaves us with no direct evidence of which of B or C the Dragons of Ice and Fire are. That said, I am willing to make a guess based on extrapolation, but this is getting beyond 'strict logic problem' reasoning and into real-world logic. The Dragon of Ice is plotting against the other dragons and doesn't appear to know the name of Demout, which makes it highly unlikely (in the real world) that it's Carange, who would presumably have decent information on its own family. I will thus guess that the Dragon of Ice is Balparaise and the Dragon of Fire is Carange. Not that it matters, but based on 'thematics', I'm guessing Balparaise has the hoard of diamonds and Carange the hoard of rubies. Still, irrelevant to true names of dragons, which is what we need to figure out. Unspoiled, give what Nakar's said about the puzzle! nweismuller fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 01:27
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Yeah I walked through it before moving onward with the thread and I can't work out any details on two of the dragons; I did take grid screenshots throughout because I figured "sure, why not" though so give me a minute and I'll at least put that up on lpix and edit it in here when I'm done. EDIT: It took me a bit because I completely hosed the order of some of my screenshots by missing one or two so I had to redo them all, and I wanted to expand my notes into proper sentences, but it's done. ArashiKurobara fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 01:36
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OK I lied, you can't get 100% of the way there even with the hint. Although if the game was merciful it should count anyway since the dragon already knows the part of the answer you're missing, so the part you can deduce logically should be enough to count as a solution  Forest cannot have Electrum, because its child has Electrum. Forest cannot have Silver, because Silver is the youngest and Forest has a child that's younger. Forest cannot have Rubies or Diamonds, because it has a metallic horde. Therefore Forest is Gold. Fire cannot have Gold, Silver, or Electrum, because it has a horde of gems. Ice cannot have Silver or Electrum, because those belong to younger dragons, and Gold is already taken. So Fire and Ice have Rubies/Diamonds between them, and Plains and Peaks have Silver/Electrum. Forest gets together from time to time with their Electrum-having offspring. But Forest (having gold) hates the dragon of the Plains and will not meet with them. So Peaks must have Electrum and Plains has silver. Carange cannot have Electrum; that is their child. They cannot have Gold; that is Forest, their mate. They cannot have Silver; they are a parent and cannot be the youngest. Therefore they must have Rubies or Diamonds. Therefore they must be Fire or Ice. Demout is younger than Fire and younger than Ice. Therefore they cannot have Rubies or Diamonds. We know that the three metal hordes belong to Alain, Ebert, and the Dragon of the Forest. Therefore Demout is Forest, which we already know is Gold. Ebert has a metallic horde. We know that Gold belongs to Demout, and we know that Electrum belongs to Peaks, which is not Ebert due to Ebert's fear of heights. Therefore Ebert is Silver; Alain, having the other metallic horde, is Electrum (Peaks.) Balparaise and Carange have Rubies and Diamonds between them, which we already know makes them Fire and Ice. At this point we know: Alain - Dragon of Peaks - Electrum Balparaise - Fire/Ice - Rubies/Diamonds Carange - Fire/Ice - Rubies/Diamonds Demout - Dragon of Forest - Gold Ebert - Dragon of Plains - Silver The only way forward I can find from this point is a leap of logic: we know that Carange has a family that they get along with, so presumably 1) Carange does not want to rob them and even if they did 2) Carange already has at least some knowledge of their family members that would give them a head start on the puzzle, so they would be less likely to be stumped than Balparaise. So it seems likely that the Dragon of Ice is Balparaise, which makes Carange Fire. With that assumption, peek at the ice dragon's horde and you should have all you need to know.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:14
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nweismuller posted:Then, we now know that the Dragon of the Plains is not B, C, or D. (It hates B, C is part of its enemy's family, and D is older than it.) This means the Dragon of the Plains is Alain, with the silver hoard. Why can't Plains be E? I too have nailed down hoards to dragon types, but I'm left with BC being Fire(Ruby)/Ice(Diamond), and AE being Plains(Silver)/Forest(Gold) Straight White Shark posted:
Yeah, now we're bring contradicted.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:21
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GuavaMoment posted:Why can't Plains be E? I too have nailed down hoards to dragon types, but I'm left with BC being Fire(Ruby)/Ice(Diamond), and AE being Plains(Silver)/Forest(Gold) There is a slight ambiguity in hint #1 depending on if you assume that "Alain, Ebert, and the Dragon of the Forest" refers to three different individuals. I interpreted it that way, which is how I got to my answer.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:25
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GuavaMoment posted:Why can't Plains be E? I too have nailed down hoards to dragon types, but I'm left with BC being Fire(Ruby)/Ice(Diamond), and AE being Plains(Silver)/Forest(Gold) OK, you're right, I slipped a gear there. Let me review my logic and Great White Shark's logic again and see which I think is more trustworthy. Edit: All right, we know the Dragon of the Plains is A or E. The Dragon of the Peaks is A or D. The Dragon of the Forest is A, D, or E. The only way to narrow this is to assume that the 'and' in clue one indicates the Dragon of the Forest is not A or E, which, yes, would make the Dragon of the Forest Demout, the Dragon of the Peaks Alain, and the Dragon of the Plains Ebert. That's what I get for rushing. Good work, Straight White Shark! nweismuller fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 02:29
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Straight White Shark posted:There is a slight ambiguity in hint #1 depending on if you assume that "Alain, Ebert, and the Dragon of the Forest" refers to three different individuals. I interpreted it that way, which is how I got to my answer. Ah, I did not assume that. If you assume they are all different, I believe your line of thinking works. Edit: Hmm, I thought I proved D was Peaks/Electrum from other principles but that can't be under your line of thinking. Not sure where I got that from and I'm unwilling to try again. This is a bit of a pain. GuavaMoment fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 02:31
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I ended up with our dragon being Carange instead of Balparaise, since we know Balparaise hates two others and "will never meet", while this guy wants to go beat all four. Of course, this is the same "not actually part of the logic problem" issue. Interestingly, our character is completely right when he says that Ice Dragon could solve it himself - but there seems no way for use to just truename Ice Dragon (which would make the problem irrelevant, go magic?) Also worth noting that the Wizard's robe is not red in that picture.
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Jun 28, 2018 02:40
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ArashiKurobara posted:EDIT: It took me a bit because I completely hosed the order of some of my screenshots by missing one or two so I had to redo them all, and I wanted to expand my notes into proper sentences, but it's done. mossyfisk posted:Also worth noting that the Wizard's robe is not red in that picture.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:18
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Nakar posted:This is pretty fantastic, by the way; the site is cool as well, I was wondering if there was a better way to do these things than in Excel or something. Can I just link to this in the next post? Go right ahead! And yeah it took me a bit of poking around Google but I figured someone out there had to have made something browser-based at some point for this stuff.
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Jun 28, 2018 03:49
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My answer and my logic is precisely the same as Straight White Shark. It may not be strictly solvable with the clues given, but it's a very short leap from where the clues can get you.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:27
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