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Serf posted:Zones are covered extensively in Forbidden Rules and they are essentially the same as Fate's zones. They honestly rule and Rob is right to wish they were core. I might have missed something, but how do zones work with stuff such as the Faun's "move 1 yard" ability? Just let them move one zone? Zones just make ancestry Speed differences irrelevant for combat, correct?
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Jun 20, 2018 10:44
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Azran posted:I might have missed something, but how do zones work with stuff such as the Faun's "move 1 yard" ability? Just let them move one zone? Zones just make ancestry Speed differences irrelevant for combat, correct? Correct. All that matters is the action economy. You can move freely within your zone, and melee attacks always work against enemies inside your zone. You can use a move action to move to an adjacent zone, or rush to move through 2 zones.
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Jun 20, 2018 11:27
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Serf posted:Correct. All that matters is the action economy. You can move freely within your zone, and melee attacks always work against enemies inside your zone. You can use a move action to move to an adjacent zone, or rush to move through 2 zones. That's actually really neat, thanks.
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Jun 20, 2018 12:29
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Still making level three peeps, so far I've got Gorga the Orc Skinchanger > Priest of the Horned King > Oracle, Hilda the Changeling > Magician > Wizard and Malifus the human Reventant > Veteran > Berserker. Any advice for making a level three person that's all about the punching? Juggernaut seems like the third level choice, just dunno what could lead in.
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Jun 20, 2018 13:44
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Cassa posted:Still making level three peeps, so far I've got Gorga the Orc Skinchanger > Priest of the Horned King > Oracle, Hilda the Changeling > Magician > Wizard and Malifus the human Reventant > Veteran > Berserker. If you want to go all-in on unarmed attacks, Adept into Mystic is probs the way to go.
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Jun 20, 2018 13:57
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Don’t forget Bred For Battle, it’s got f.ex. a Monk who gives some unarmed fighting buffs.
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Jun 20, 2018 14:05
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Azran posted:I might have missed something, but how do zones work with stuff such as the Faun's "move 1 yard" ability? Just let them move one zone? Zones just make ancestry Speed differences irrelevant for combat, correct? SotDL was written with yards in mind. Anything that has a smaller resolution than, say, 10 yards or so doesn't work that well with Zones. Not without tweaks anyways. (Which isn't to say I'd switch to a grid for the game. Zones are still the better option, given how huge an average SotDL grid would need to be with 1-yard squares.) Here's how I ended up implementing it, which looks more complicated than it works. A lot of this is taken from Forbidden Rules, but I added my own tweaks. ---- (0) Anything that is completely dumb will be adjudicated to make it less dumb. (1) The potential battlefield is divided into zones. There’s no definite size for these; they are just distinct areas, or portions of large areas. A large tavern would have probably 2-3 zones for the common room, 1 zone behind the bar, 1 for the kitchen, 1 for the street outside, 1 for the stairs up, and so on. Exact positioning within a zone is considered fluid, with people constantly shifting and jockeying for position. (2) Zones might have traits – like difficult terrain, hazards, or restrictions (like a narrow hallway can limit the number of combatants in melee). Smaller zones might have an occupancy limit. (3) You can make Melee or Touch attacks against anyone in the same zone, subject to reason. (For example, if you’re grabbed, your targets will be limited.) (4) A Move lets you move one zone for every 8 Speed your character has, rounded down, with a minimum of one. The Dash action allows you to move the number of zones you can normally move, plus one. For any other actions with movement attached to them, approximate the zones moved using 8yd = 1 zone, round down, with a minimum of zero.* (5) If you move out of an enemy-occupied zone without taking the Retreat action, 1d3-1 enemies can target you with free triggered attacks. This is rolled before you move; you can decide not to move, afterwards. (6) Ranges are simple. Short/5 yards = Same zone. Medium/20 yards can target in the same zone or an adjacent one. Long/100 yards can reach 3 zones away. Anything with Extreme range is basically “Do you have an unobstructed path?” Remember that there are no penalties or free attacks for using spells or ranged attacks while in melee. (7) General AoE Rules: Under normal circumstances, an AoE will target a number of creatures in a single zone, based on its size. a. Cone: Affects a number of creatures equal to its length in yards, minus 1 (minimum 1) b. Cylinder: The cylinder’s radius in yards. c. Line: The line’s width in yards, minus 1 (minimum 1) d. Sphere: The sphere’s radius in yards. (8) For normal AoE casting/attacking, you can pick the first target for your AoE just like for any attack. But after that, an AoE’s targets are determined randomly from among all possible targets in the zone, and the maximum number of targets will be affected, if available. (Friends don’t fireball near friends.) (9) If you want to make an AoE carefully and don’t want to risk harm to your allies, cut the number of targets in half (rounded down, minimum 1) and then randomly determine which enemies are affected. Casting this way, you can’t pick any of the targets. (10) AoE Exceptions: If there’s something obvious, like you’re tossing a fireball at 10 beastmen in a single hallway zone, all the beastmen get fried. And some AoEs might be bigger than small zones (like a closet), so the effect might expand from there. (11) Because of the fluidity of combat, Hiding is mainly dependent on the environment and the presence/absence of enemies in a zone. Hiding mid-combat is difficult – you must not be actively observed and must be in either a heavily obscured area, or an area with ¾ or greater cover. Hiding outside of combat is considerably easier, unless your enemies are on alert. You remain hidden until the conditions that let you hide no longer exist, or you do something to break it (such as making an attack, shouting, etc.). (* I ended up changing this to a minimum of 1 zone, because it made charging and withdrawal from combat really terrible.)
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Jun 20, 2018 15:57
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Serf posted:
 Good work, Rob. Keep it up.
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Jun 20, 2018 16:19
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Rip_Van_Winkle posted:
I will always follow the golden rule that TT RPG communities are full of idiots.
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Jun 21, 2018 00:32
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Serf posted:If you want to go all-in on unarmed attacks, Adept into Mystic is probs the way to go. Mystic for extra power point? What's the synergy there? Antilles posted:Don’t forget Bred For Battle, it’s got f.ex. a Monk who gives some unarmed fighting buffs. Ah I completely missed that. I'm bummed brawler isn't a pugilist. Might rename the monk class.
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Jun 21, 2018 00:53
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Cassa posted:Mystic for extra power point? What's the synergy there? I've played the bred for battle monk -> mystic recently. mystic has a bunch of buffs to unarmed combat and unarmored defense, the ability to meditate away Insanity 1 point per day, more Speed. No traditions to use your Power through, but i found buying a lot of rank 0 incantations let me have some very useful magic anyway
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Jun 21, 2018 00:58
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I think since the unarmed strike is on the weapons table it counts as a weapon attack, and if so you could just do f.ex. an unarmed Barbarian as angry punchmans Path.
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Jun 21, 2018 01:10
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other paths to very strongly consider for unarmed combat that are not necessarily unarmed combat specific are: The Spellguard Basic path from Bred for Battle-the power level is *very* high and it lets you do things like self-buff with the excellent unarmed spells from Primal without actually needing a real action to do so and benefit from most of the Warrior's strong combat bonuses. It'd be a good choice to pair with the Mystic, since you'll gain full benefit of the Mystic's unarmed damage upgrade at level 3 and full Power progression. One of the Spellguards few weaknesses is only having a single tradition early- strongly consider going Human so you get an extra tradition at level 4 (per Only Human- Battle is probably the best choice along with Primal since it lets you turn spell casts into additional unarmed strike and has useful low-level utility spells that provide mobility and self-healing)- Beast Within makes humanity's largest disadvantage (lack of darksight) a moot point anyway. The Fighter Expert path- Unarmed strikes are basic weapons so Fight With Anything applies and upgrades them to d6's. It's a good choice for a character who brawls, and the rest of the Fighter bonuses are as good as always and not contingent on doing things like avoiding wearing armor- the only minor downside is that if you do go for a strength-based character you'll only really be able to benefit from the Fight With Two-Weapons Fighter Talent while using your fists/feet (which isn't that restrictive). If you've got decent agility instead/additionally you can definitely do something like picking a feat to boost your ranged attacks at level 6 and build a two-fisted gunslinger/archer. It's a very strong alternative to Mystic at the Expert level if you're not planning to use magic- Mystic's defensive/mobility/damage bonuses are excellent, but it also doesn't provide any boons/accuracy, something the Fighter excels at (in addition to just being generally strong). If you are using magic I think the Spellbinder Expert path is also worth a potential look- full caster and big bonuses to melee attacks that can be applied to unarmed. I think this benefits ancestries that already have a decent unarmed attack via size or natural weapons the most, and it's not at its best combined with Mystic (since you definitely want the level 9 bonus from Mystic, but Spellbinder's level 9 Magic Weapon is also excellent). e: Antilles posted:I think since the unarmed strike is on the weapons table it counts as a weapon attack, and if so you could just do f.ex. an unarmed Barbarian as angry punchmans Path. e2: Also, if you're doing a hybrid build Rogue is usually a good/close substitute for Spellguard if it isn't allowed, but this is less true for unarmed builds than others I think, since many of the unarmed specific paths offer big damage bonuses but relatively few boons to unarmed attacks, which can be an issue if you want the damage bonuses from Trickery/Dirty Tricks (and you do). A Rogue->Mystic->Martial Artist is very unlikely to actually be able to benefit from those talents without either outside help or going out of their way to devote their very limited selection of spells to self-buffing accuracy, something a (say) Rogue->Spellbinder->Mage Knight using a rapier wouldn't need to worry about. LGD fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 01:38
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Can you apply Trickery twice to the same roll? How do Exploit Opportunity and Twain Self interact? e: Does the Dervish's Two Weapon Mastery replace the 2 bane penalty for attacking with two weapons with the 1 boon bonus, or does it just add one boon for a net total of 1 bane? Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 03:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Can you apply Trickery twice to the same roll? 1) Yes. 2) You each get your own set of #-per-round abilities, like Trickery and Exploit Opportunity.
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Jun 21, 2018 03:47
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Conspiratiorist posted:1) Yes. oh god it's even better than i thought
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Jun 21, 2018 03:49
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It's a level 4 spell with various drawbacks, it better be.
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Jun 21, 2018 03:58
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Cassa posted:Mystic for extra power point? What's the synergy there? Having looked at it closer, I now see that Antilles is right Antilles posted:Don’t forget Bred For Battle, it’s got f.ex. a Monk who gives some unarmed fighting buffs. Monk into Mystic is the way to go. Like if you wanted to be a fast and hard to hit unarmed fighter I would go with Goblin as your ancestry. As a Goblin Monk you use your character creation shift to move Strength to 9 and Intellect to 9, then at level 1 you boost Strength to 10 and Agility to 13, then at level 3 you bump them both again to 11 and 14 respectively. As you enter Expert, you'll have a base Defense of 19 (17 unarmored, plus 2 for Enlightened Defense [1 Power +1]). If you hold onto your Qi Focus, that bumps you to 20 Defense. And don't forget you're as fast as an orc at 12, and with Qi Focus that goes up to a crazy 16! Your unarmed strikes do a middling 2d6 damage (Unarmed Prowess + Iron Fist), but you can expend your Qi Focus to bump that to 3d6 if you want. From here if you go in Martial Artist, you've got 4d6 unarmed strikes, depending on how you use Unarmed Expertise/Mastery, with the ability to do 6d6, plus whatever nonsense you get from Martial Artist talents. You'll also have a base speed of 16, up to 20 with Qi Focus. And your Defense will jump up to 23 (+1 for Agility and +2 for Danger Sense). Another idea, as mentioned, is a Spellguard into Mystic. This is interesting, and probably creates a more well-rounded character.
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Jun 21, 2018 04:01
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I would be very interested if anyone could optimize this (very "bosskiller" / alpha strike-focused) build further: http://docdro.id/Ey1xgxY Four attacks per turn, 7d6 damage at +7 to hit plus two boons each -- and that's before limited-use buffs from the Battle tradition or sacrificing casts of Spellbound Weapon. Only lasts for six rounds (not counting the initial setup turn) and then you disappear for the next minute but hey, that's the price you pay. Also, your average result on an attack roll is about 21.47, so against any enemy with 16 or less defense you'll be taking an extra turn per round as often as not. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 04:05
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Can't find Word of Rob on it, but I'm pretty sure that the consensus (including moderators) is that the extra use of Trickery from Rogue Cunning needs to be applied to a different attack/challenge roll (though obviously the bonus from Dirty Tricks would apply to both) twain self does potentially get pretty nutty though, yeah
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Jun 21, 2018 04:10
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Pair it with the technomancy spell that does 5 attack rolls.
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Jun 21, 2018 04:12
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Thanks guys, I appreciate it. Anyone have any insight on the Dervish question? If the answer to that one is "the former" I think Dervish might be a better exit than Gunslinger.
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Jun 21, 2018 04:13
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unless it explicitly says otherwise boons/banes are always purely additive/subtractive, so (accounting for Dervish alone) it'd still be at a net 1 boon penalty e: also, that's a pretty fun gunslinger build (though without checking math I think you're missing your level 0 time spell/a couple other spells) e2: also I think your math on damage output is off, since you should have more than 2 boons (1 from Weapon Training (Spellguard 1), 1 from Spellbound Weapon (Spellbinder 1), 1 from Magic Weapon (Spellbinder 9), and 1 from Deadeye Shot (Gunslinger 10))- and if you're already accounting for using 2 boons to dual wield spellbound pistols your damage total is too low- it's actually 4 attacks at 8-10d6 each (2d6 pistol + 2d6 offhand pistol + 1d6 combat prowess + 1d6 spellguard mastery + 1d6 Magic Weapon + 1d6 deadye shot + 1d6 invest power [unless you really can't spare a triggered action to burn a level 0 spell at some point] + 1d6 spellguard expertise [unless casting a spell]) you also might as well include Battle Prowess in the calculations since you're almost certainly going to take it and it's not significantly more "limited use" than this whole nova setup in the first place in terms of further optimization it's a bit of a pity that your high level spell picks are so limited since a quick dip into Arcana for Harness Magic (and Arcane Armor) would be nice for the endurance of the build- instead you might want to do a similar small dip into Rune magic for Rune of Ice (+ Lasting Rune as your free level 0) since it'll provide a nice long-lasting damage bonus that can be applied to both guns if you're dual wielding and which can be achieved at an early level (4 I think, since you'll probably want to start with Battle) Scrimshaw of Battle (from the Freeport Companion) might also be worth picking up if no one else in your group has it, since it's a pretty solid group buff (though it's a pick that is probably suboptimal in a theoretical white-room maximization exercise) LGD fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jun 21, 2018 |
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Jun 21, 2018 04:20
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zeal posted:I've played the bred for battle monk -> mystic recently. mystic has a bunch of buffs to unarmed combat and unarmored defense, the ability to meditate away Insanity 1 point per day, more Speed. No traditions to use your Power through, but i found buying a lot of rank 0 incantations let me have some very useful magic anyway My current game features a monk/mystic but he is really wanting for damage and utility alongside the Centaur, the Adept, and the Paladin. I ended up letting him commission a pair of super duper monk gauntlets that give him an additional d3 with some benefits. now that I'm reading he can stack all those attacks I'm regretting it a little bit!
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Jun 21, 2018 04:52
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Azran posted:I might have missed something, but how do zones work with stuff such as the Faun's "move 1 yard" ability? Just let them move one zone? Zones just make ancestry Speed differences irrelevant for combat, correct? I generally just handle issues of distance or speed smaller than one zone by handing out boons/banes if it seems like the difference would be advantageous or a drawback. Being faster might give a boon on free attacks caused by an enemy leaving the zone or increase the benefit of the Defend action if there's room to dodge around, having a longer Reach weapon might impose a bane on attacks against you, etc.
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Jun 21, 2018 09:55
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LGD posted:unless it explicitly says otherwise boons/banes are always purely additive/subtractive, so (accounting for Dervish alone) it'd still be at a net 1 boon penalty Twain Self applies one bane, I'm taking that into account when I tally up the boons. My math also does not assume dual-wielding, since that would take me down to 0 boons and I'd lose the benefit of a lot of Rogue talents. With respect to level 0 spells, I was under the impression that only Magicians got free cantrips. I'll look into the rest when I get a minute to sit down and go over it; thanks for your insight!
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Jun 21, 2018 13:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:With respect to level 0 spells, I was under the impression that only Magicians got free cantrips. Magicians get an additional free rank 0 spell when picking a Tradition, everyone gets one free when they pick up a new Tradition.
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Jun 21, 2018 14:48
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Antilles posted:Magicians get an additional free rank 0 spell when picking a Tradition, everyone gets one free when they pick up a new Tradition. All the rules regarding magic are so unclearly written in comparison to how clear the rest of the book is. The "get a 0 rank spell when picking up a new a tradition" bit isn't even BOLDED.
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Jun 21, 2018 19:50
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Azran posted:All the rules regarding magic are so unclearly written in comparison to how clear the rest of the book is. The "get a 0 rank spell when picking up a new a tradition" bit isn't even BOLDED. I really dislike the whole "Discover a tradition" vs "Learn a new spell" language in the book, when I'm teaching it to new people I treat everything as "learn a new spell" and just tell them they need to choose a Level 0 one before they can choose any others in the same tradition.
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Jun 23, 2018 11:19
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The newer books do a better job of this. It is instead formatted as such:quote:Magic Choose one of the following options: Which is, imo, much more clear about the exact process of learning new magic. It doesn't help with the "you learn a level 0 spell when discovering a tradition" issue. In a theoretical 2nd edition (which Rob is adamant won't happen) I could see plenty of opportunity for clearing these things up.
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Jun 23, 2018 13:46
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Do triggered actions count as actions? More specifically, can a Spellguard / x / Mage Knight go: 1. Spend an action to attack, activating Spellguard Expertise; 2. Cast an attack spell off of Spellguard Expertise, activating Mage Knight Tactics; 3. Spend a triggered action to attack off of Mage Knight tactics, activating Spellguard Expertise; 4. Cast an attack spell off of Spellguard Expertise, at which point the combo ends because you've already used your triggered action. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Jun 24, 2018 |
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Jun 24, 2018 21:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Do triggered actions count as actions? No.
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Jun 24, 2018 23:59
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Okay; I'm honestly a little relieved, 6 attacks and 6 attack spells per turn would probably make the rest of the table want to kill you. 
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Jun 25, 2018 00:09
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If you wanted to use the system to run something a bit more like D&D that would strip out stuff like Corruption/Insanity, what would you do with the Will stat? Everything else basically works perfectly if you replace the fluff, but without those things it feels like a bit of a weak stat. Strength/Agility/Intellect get Health/Defense/Perception, so feels like Will needs something else now that you won't be using it to deal with those effects.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:28
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Razakai posted:If you wanted to use the system to run something a bit more like D&D that would strip out stuff like Corruption/Insanity, what would you do with the Will stat? Everything else basically works perfectly if you replace the fluff, but without those things it feels like a bit of a weak stat. Strength/Agility/Intellect get Health/Defense/Perception, so feels like Will needs something else now that you won't be using it to deal with those effects. I would reflavor Frightening/Horrifying and keep their effects, along with the Will roll because it is important to the math of the game. Also, Will is used in half the magic traditions and it serves as your stand-in for Charisma in some cases where force of personality needs to be considered.
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Jun 25, 2018 21:35
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Insanity is a pretty good mechanic, and a few abilities scale or trigger off of Corruption. I wouldn't throw them out, especially Insanity -- just present them in slightly less grimdark terms.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:11
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Do natural weapons (as, for instance, from the Transformation tradition) count as weapons, unarmed attacks, both, or neither? e: the core book lists unarmed attacks themselves as a weapon so i'm guessing that extends to natural attacks as well, but that still leaves the "are natural weapons unarmed attacks" part of the question e2: Is there any way to increase spell durations (for non-Rune spells) besides being a Sorcerer? e3: Nevermind, you don't retain your traits when transforming. Boooo. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 23:57
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Is there any particularly overpowered/underpowered ancestry I should be careful with? Or does it not even matter in comparison to Path choices.
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Jun 29, 2018 01:17
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Azran posted:Is there any particularly overpowered/underpowered ancestry I should be careful with? Or does it not even matter in comparison to Path choices. I think playing a robot is inherently a bit shittier than everyone else but otherwise its fine go nuts.
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Jun 29, 2018 01:30
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Azran posted:Is there any particularly overpowered/underpowered ancestry I should be careful with? Or does it not even matter in comparison to Path choices. If you're going to GM i'd suggest not allowing Gnome and maybe Jotun (not nearly as bad) because they both start out with some pretty stupid racial stuff, gnomes can just half all damage taken for a bit, and Jotuns start size 2 which is real strong.
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Jun 29, 2018 01:58
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