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DoctorWhat posted:binro was right, motherfucker ;_; Key to Time is my favorite T-Bakes season, hands down no questions. Just so fun from start to finish -- Kroll and the finale are a little lesser, but i still like 'em, and the rest are solid gold. Also, Romana I, woof (i adore Lalla Ward but Mary Tamm was gone too soon) After The War posted:Vicki getting the automated system to grant her the power to bring the world revolution I see what you did here and I approve
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Jun 29, 2018 23:22
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The best thing about Romana I is that she was the Doctor’s equal in a lot of ways but he understood how the universe works better than she, so they were the classic odd couple perfect pair. There was also much more a professional appreciation for each other rather than an attraction. I liked Lala Ward but they made her more of a companion than an equal. And yes, I like brunettes with big eyes better. Which all is a big reason I like Clara so much as well ...  Oh and if you haven’t already, totally get the Big Finish season with Tom and Mary. It really feels like the next season after the Key to Time. They do a great job. Even if you can tell she’s getting weaker toward the end... and the tribute to her... ahem. I have something in my eye again.... excuse me. 
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Jun 29, 2018 23:56
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Romana I/Mary Tamm was my first crush when I was a kid, and I've had a thing for snarky ice queens ever since. Pertwee's first year was a highpoint despite the overlong stories, because it played everything as straight as if it was a drama despite basically being about Jason King fighting space aliens. Not constantly winking at the audience and feeling the need to have every dialogue exchange include a joke would be something the show could benefit from now. Although Tom's first year probably beats it for sheer entertainment (and then the Key series for the aforementioned Romana I and its first four stories).
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Jun 30, 2018 00:08
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Pertwee's year really is great. Plus it brought us The Ambassadors.... ....OF DEATH!
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Jun 30, 2018 00:10
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Got bitten by the Who bug recently so I thought I'd check out Davison's original run since mostly I had not seen much outside of Tom Baker's stuff back when I was a kid, but in recent years I really enjoyed Davison and Colin Baker's Big Finish stuff and since Colin's TV run isn't well regarded I figured I'd start with Davison. My partner isn't big on older television (even early 2000 can be too old sometimes, given when we've tried to watch Kamen Rider from that time) so I kind of have to watch this stuff solo and then don't really have anyone to discuss it with, so I wanted to write down my thoughts here. Starting with Castrovalva. I'm going to spoil the poo poo out of this 40 year serial. First off, it's a little rough jumping into what's essentially the 2nd part of a two-part story. The Master and The Doctor have just had some sort of tussle and The Doctor has just regenerated. The special effects for the change sort of caught me off guard because while I wasn't exactly expecting wacky inflatable noodle arms of light, I also didn't expect the paper mache mummy transition. The older special effects in general are sort of charming. The spliced in image of The Master's TARDIS floating in the air like a piece of clipart was especially amusing. Speaking of, I sort of expected something a little flashier for The Master than a nondescript pillar that didn't look like it even had a door or could fit more than a single person inside. I know they're bigger on the inside, but at least the The Doctor's TARDIS exterior looks like an entryway to something bigger. I guess the pillar could've been some sort of camouflage from the previous episode, but again I was missing the context not having watched the previous serial. The first episode mostly deals with setting up the stakes. There's something maybe wrong with the Doctor's regeneration, but it's kind of unclear what exactly is wrong or how anyone knows that something is wrong. Certainly there's something wrong with Adric because we see him spend what might as well be an eternity in a time machine, acting a bit robotic as he's let go (or escapes?) from The Master's TARDIS. Tegan and Nyssa kind of bumble around in a way that makes me wonder just what level of competency these two women are supposed to have. Between The Doctor calling everyone the wrong name and having consumed a lot of Who media out of order, I wasn't actually sure at first who the two women were exactly. Nyssa's dialogue is a bit rough, as a lot of the time she's given a lot of technobabble and proper science facts to spout, but then needs Tegan's help figuring out how to find an index file to search a database. Speaking of, Tegan's little speech on "If" comes off as really awkward and would've been forgettable if Nyssa didn't bring it up every episode for the rest of the serial as "When you taught me about 'If'." It was really quite annoying. As shaky as things seemed at first, the two women are pretty much the stars of the show. With Adric being mostly a robot or gone and The Doctor either stumbling about or confined to a wheelchair they're the ones dealing with all the issues of trying to make sure the TARDIS isn't going to crash and that The Doctor's regeneration completes correctly. Finally I thought The Doctor's coat and hat just sitting out in the hall was a bit weird. I guess the TARDIS just set it out for him to wear, but I guess I really just expected a closet or something. Perhaps in that cricket locker room type area would've been more appropriate, since he at least put on some of his clothes on in there. The second episode is very transitory, going from the TARDIS interior sets to the exterior of Castrovalva. It's cool that Tegan finally manages to land the TARDIS, even if later there's a line near the finale of the serial where Adric is said to have programmed everything beforehand so she didn't really do anything at all! Wah waaaaah. Still, not much to say here. I liked that the sonic screwdriver showed up and was used specifically as a screwdriver. Also the explanation for why the Zero Cabinet was going to be moved about as if it were an empty box was also cute. I'm a little confused on how Adric's powers of calculations/mathematics allows him to send out psychic clones and-- do whatever it is that he does that causes Castrovalva to exist in the first place, but I just sort of rolled with it because obviously this isn't supposed to be the audience's introduction to the character. The third episode is where the serial feels like it's actually starting. Everything is set up and they're finally at the titular location and now we get to meet the non-permanent characters and discover the mysteries of the setting. There's a lot of what seems like sexism coming from the men of Castrovalva that's a little confusing if it's just the general sexism of the early 80s or if there's some sort of plot point here. All the women we see in Castrovalva are either washing clothes or serving food and there's an obvious disdain once the two "super men" who scaled the cliff to the castle are revealed to be women, but it doesn't seem to really go anywhere after that. Considering how much the show was making me question Nyssa and Tegan's competence in the first episode, I'm going to chalk it up to the casual sexism of the times. With the exception of the Adric/Master plotline and the existence of the Zero Cabinet, you probably could almost just jump right into the third episode as the start of the story. I do liked how it wasn't really clear if anything sinister was actually going on or if any of the characters residing in Castrovalva were villains of a sort. Certainly they tried to subvert expectations that the fur and mask hunters ended up being gentlemen for the most part, but I found it almost refreshing that there wasn't a clear sinister villain in Castrovalva and that while it was clear the cast of the castle had their own plottings none of it appeared to be evil for evil's sake. Of course, we have The Master for that. As the third episode closes and the fourth opens we have a very clear danger. The Master's 2nd trap, some sort of recursion-based time trap, is revealed! The Doctor bounces back and forth between the characters in Castrovalva and pretty much outs every character is a decent chap at heart-- except the kindly old man turns out to be The Master in disguise! This caught me by surprise, I admit. The kindly portreeve was the only one who seemed to be without a sinister plot and I guess I'm not quite paranoid enough to have immediately have suspected him because of it. The map drawing sequence and the hint that books 500 years old chronicled up to the current day were entertaining and I was kind of sad that in the end the entire place and its people were all just-- Adric's psychic constructs or something. Also, thinking about the final lines how Adric programmed the TARDIS to fly to Castrovalva beforehand on The Master's orders makes me wonder why The Master had been gloating beforehand to Adric when it looked like the Big Bang was going to kill The Doctor about not needing his second trap. Surly he would've known then that the TARDIS was going to fly to Castrovalva. It's kind of confusing and in the end I think I'm just not going to think too hard on it. In the end I think the back half of the serial was really interesting and fun to watch. The first half took a bit too long and it felt like it took forever before Davison got to start playing The Doctor proper. The threat of the regeneration going wrong never felt real in any way and maybe things like the trail of blood would've been more suspenseful if I was waiting a week between episodes rather than a couple hours/a day between them. Though there was some shakey stuff there was enough solid entertainment in the second half that I'm going to definitely keep watching.
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Jun 30, 2018 00:25
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Gynovore posted:Two reasons why not: The Power of Kroll is unfairly maligned  It's got a Robert Holmes script, some decent location work, actual integration of the Key to Time into the story, and one of Tom Baker's best grins. You could do a lot worse (eg the following story).
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Jun 30, 2018 00:30
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Potsticker posted:Starting with Castrovalva. I'm going to spoil the poo poo out of this 40 year serial. There's actually a lot of carryover from the previous couple episodes for Classic Who. The big thing was the concept of "Block Transfer Mathematics" which was using math to affect reality and create matter... somehow. There was a planet of people who were keeping the universe an open system to prevent entropy, and the Master obviously wanted some of that poo poo. His TARDIS is stuck in the form it took when he arrived on that planet. Essentially, the Master has created Castrovalva using Block Transfer Mathematics, powered by Adric in the Web of Boners.
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Jun 30, 2018 01:06
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Doctor Zero posted:The best season is the Key to Time. Period. "OOOOOH, MARY"
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Jun 30, 2018 01:27
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After The War posted:like the Doctor figuring out the controls in "Tomb" Tomb has two, no three, of my favorite moments in all of Doctor Who, and this is one of them. The Doctor getting so excited at having solved the puzzle and then remembering "Oh wait no you shouldn't actually go in- you shouldn't go- you're going in aren't you?" (The other two are the Doctor's very sweet conversation with Victoria about family and loss and Jamie and Klieg's "He's lucky, I spared him!" "You mean you missed him!" exchange.)
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Jun 30, 2018 01:28
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Trin Tragula posted:The best year of Doctor Who in terms of sustained quality is clearly Pertwee's first year, fight me It is. 5 is also very strong, as is 26; 14 is comparable to 13.
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Jun 30, 2018 01:30
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Castrovalva is a really peculiar episode from a really peculiar time in the classic show's history, so I'm glad it seems you ultimately enjoyed it. It's really treated as a continuation of the previous story - Baker's last - and the obvious assumption by the people making the show that anybody watching it was of course intimately familiar with everything going on. There's a lot to really like about the story for a longtime viewer, but even with that context it's an uneven and sometimes confusing story. Just as an example:Potsticker posted:The special effects for the change sort of caught me off guard because while I wasn't exactly expecting wacky inflatable noodle arms of light, I also didn't expect the paper mache mummy transition. In general regeneration had been shown (for 1 and 3, 2 was off-screen) as a simply transition between one face and another while the Doctor lay dying/dead. However, at the end of 3's run he had encountered his former Time Lord Mentor and discovered that he'd reached a stage of semi-enlightenment (there was a strong Buddhist influence) and was capable of projecting his own future regeneration in physical form to the present day to interact and communicate with others INCLUDING his prior regeneration. At the end of 4's very long run (7 years), in the story immediately preceding this one, the Doctor spots a mysterious figure watching him and eventually confronts and talks with him and learns (we don't till later in the episode) that it is the chrysalis form of his own future regeneration, and he is projecting it in a manner similar to his old mentor. None of this stuff about his mentor and his abilities is ever explicitly referenced, and it's based on a story from 7 years earlier so there is certainly a level of confusion for people watching at the time. Now consider you're watching it decades later, without having watched any of 4's stuff, I can see why the "paper mache mummy transition" is a bit of a headscratcher! Unfortunately Davison's run is a mixed bag (in my opinon). He's great, but the TARDIS feels a bit overstuffed at times, the stories often didn't quite live up to their potential, and his absolute best story is his last one. He straight up said that if prior scripts had been as good as his last, he would have stuck around more than 3 years in the role.
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Jun 30, 2018 01:36
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MrL_JaKiri posted:It is. I'd be extremely tempted by 26 if I could put Greatest Show in there and ideally just stuff Battlefield down the back of the sofa or something, I swear that the worst thing about the loss of received wisdom is all the young people and their freaky friends these days who seem to want to stick up for it 14 has a much stronger shout for me than 13, which is clearly let down badly by
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Jun 30, 2018 02:40
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The Power of Kroll is unfairly maligned Kroll wasn't horrible, it was just slow and bland. You could have squeezed it down to two episodes without losing anything. Also the special effects were bad even by EDIT: also someone gave the Doctor a cup of coffee and he put it in his pocket. Gynovore fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jun 30, 2018 |
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Jun 30, 2018 02:41
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The worst part about Kroll is that they hired Philip Madoc... to play some random background dude who doesn't do anything. I mean, the guy they cast as the villain was well-cast and did a very good job with a pretty poor script.... but why would you hire Philip Madoc and NOT make him your villain?
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Jun 30, 2018 02:46
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After The War posted:Essentially, the Master has created Castrovalva using Block Transfer Mathematics, powered by Adric in the Web of Boners. Ah, I see! It was a little unclear if what was going on there was a continuation of the plot from the previous episode or something new. Especially since I know Who can just make up things for a new episode regardless of previous continuity. Jerusalem posted:None of this stuff about his mentor and his abilities is ever explicitly referenced, and it's based on a story from 7 years earlier so there is certainly a level of confusion for people watching at the time. Now consider you're watching it decades later, without having watched any of 4's stuff, I can see why the "paper mache mummy transition" is a bit of a headscratcher! There is a bit just at the beginning that shows a shot of this. That there's some character who turned out to be The Doctor's future self who then merges with The Doctor just before he regenerates. It's just interesting to see how the special effects for the regeneration were handled at the time. In some way I almost prefer it like this. If Matt Smith had just nodded his head into Capaldi without the whole laser light show of destroying the Dalek fleet first I feel like that would've been pretty fantastic. Jerusalem posted:Unfortunately Davison's run is a mixed bag (in my opinon). He's great, but the TARDIS feels a bit overstuffed at times, the stories often didn't quite live up to their potential, and his absolute best story is his last one. He straight up said that if prior scripts had been as good as his last, he would have stuck around more than 3 years in the role. I'm excited to watch more. And hearing that the last story might be the best one is a good motivator to maybe get through any bits that might drag me down.
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Jun 30, 2018 04:34
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sinepost posted:Sounds like Underworld - it's about halfway through Tom's run. The little musical tune that plays when they use the gravity elevator will be lodged in your brain forever.
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Jun 30, 2018 04:50
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Potsticker posted:I'm excited to watch more. And hearing that the last story might be the best one is a good motivator to maybe get through any bits that might drag me down. I'l gush (and gush, and gush...) about "Caves" when we get there, but you do get more out of it for having seen the rest of Davison's run first - both in-universe (the Doctor's need to save his companion at any cost stems directly from how two of his original three leave) and off-camera (Robert Holmes nailed the tone and structure that Saward had been trying for his entire run, and with writing that played to Davison's strengths in a way that hadn't been done previously). There are plenty of cool moments between here and there, though, and you'll see some ambitious, imaginative stuff that's unique to this era, as well.
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Jun 30, 2018 05:03
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Caves is just Power of Kroll with some rewrites 
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Jun 30, 2018 05:06
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The man knew what worked!
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Jun 30, 2018 05:19
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Jerusalem posted:Pertwee's year really is great. Plus it brought us The Ambassadors....
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Jun 30, 2018 07:30
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Jerusalem posted:Unfortunately Davison's run is a mixed bag (in my opinon). He's great, but the TARDIS feels a bit overstuffed at times, the stories often didn't quite live up to their potential, and his absolute best story is his last one. He straight up said that if prior scripts had been as good as his last, he would have stuck around more than 3 years in the role. This is why I laugh more than I should at Turlough's injured dignity upon being asked to make the sandwiches by 1. It sums up all the problems with 5's era. Nothing will replace Mary Tamm. I was just thinking how with Romana I, we had a sense that maybe all Time Lords have an ironic relationship with the universe, and that Tom's levity was actually a Time Lord trait. This was never sustained with later Time Lords (imho the big failing with Romana II), but I like to think it's their way of keeping everyone else guessing instead of being just a madperson in a box.
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Jun 30, 2018 11:53
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Jerusalem posted:The worst part about Kroll is that they hired Philip Madoc... to play some random background dude who doesn't do anything. This! I knew Philip Madoc and he was lovely. An absolute gentleman.
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Jun 30, 2018 12:00
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Started the Lives of Captain Jack set tonight and really enjoyed that the first story is Jack, in the aftermath of the events on the game station, embracing "eat the rich. Fully automated luxury gay space communism now"  (Seriously though, solid story exploring Jack and his feelings after that first revival and the state of the world after the Daleks, with some fun side characters)
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Jun 30, 2018 12:43
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Jerusalem posted:I mean, the guy they cast as the villain was well-cast and did a very good job with a pretty poor script.... but why would you hire Philip Madoc and NOT make him your villain? HopperUK posted:This! I knew Philip Madoc and he was lovely. An absolute gentleman. I am taking notes. And your names will go on the List. 
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Jun 30, 2018 16:41
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Man I am SO ready for the new series. I've adored Jodie since Attack the Block and I'm fuckin giddy in anticipation of what she's going to bring to the role. Do we have anything resembling a premier date yet?
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Jun 30, 2018 19:11
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One scene that for some reason invaded my consciousness recently was the 'classic ballad scene' from End Of The World. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJEyX1On_b0 Obviously Softcell and Britney Speirs won't be respected classical artists in a billion years team, I would happily lay money on it. I like Softcell but cannot stand Speirs. This was a case of RTD choosing songs he liked, or songs he thought would go down well. What two songs would you choose to represent Earth 'classics'?
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Jul 1, 2018 14:04
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Hey Jude for pop, Ode to Joy for classical.
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Jul 1, 2018 14:15
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Or maybe it was just a joke that pop songs would be considered classical works of art in 5 apple/26 years from now? 
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Jul 1, 2018 14:29
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Sad King Billy posted:This was a case of RTD choosing songs he liked, or songs he thought would go down well. Also, it’s funny? Calling it ‘a traditional Earth ballad’, and then Toxic, the epitome of catchy, light pop plays? That’s meant to be a joke. I’m sure he likes it as a song, too. I remember putting together a vaguely Doctor Who-y playlist for a party (regular songs, interspersed with ELO, Rogue Traders, etc), and it was only when Toxic came on people were all ‘nope, next track’.
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Jul 1, 2018 14:34
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toxic is a great song your friends are terrible
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Jul 1, 2018 14:38
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RTD had a bit of a thing for jokingly referencing modern pop culture in the future. He even does it in the near-future; there's a poster for a greatest hits tour by some flash-in-the-pan, already on his way out pop star in Fear Her. I always forget who, though. I always found that trend endearing, though, it's just a bit of fun. For what's going to survive long enough to be misinterpreted by aliens: I'm going to say Daft Punk. I'm not sure how, though; they'll either be remembered as robots or cyborgs with their relics being primarily from Homework and Discovery, or they'll gently caress up the time frame and the singles from Random Access Memories will be considered a classic of the 70s.
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Jul 1, 2018 14:45
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Astroman posted:Or maybe it was just a joke that pop songs would be considered classical works of art in 5 apple/26 years from now? It is a hackneyed joke, every Sci Fi show set in the future has done something similar.
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Jul 1, 2018 15:07
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Sad King Billy posted:It is a hackneyed joke, every Sci Fi show set in the future has done something similar. It's going to be impossible to beat Star Trek Beyond's version of it.
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Jul 1, 2018 15:11
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's going to be impossible to beat Star Trek Beyond's version of it. I still say instead of the Beastie Boys, it should've been that song that the "punk" was blaring from his boombox for The Voyage Home
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Jul 1, 2018 15:13
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Doctor Spaceman posted:It's going to be impossible to beat Star Trek Beyond's version of it. "Is that classical music?"
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Jul 1, 2018 15:38
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Futurama is my go-to https://youtu.be/C52MXbkhepQ
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Jul 1, 2018 16:28
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Sad King Billy posted:It is a hackneyed joke, every Sci Fi show set in the future has done something similar. I mean Doctor Who did it very well in 1965
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Jul 1, 2018 17:34
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I bought Time Flight on DVD the other day. An unfairly maligned classic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB2yqeD0Nus
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Jul 1, 2018 17:44
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even the bad stories have good commentary tracks so the dvds are still good
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Jul 1, 2018 17:57
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I also bought Power of the Daleks and Arc of Infinity but it was Time Flight I really wanted.
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Jul 1, 2018 18:09
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