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I suspect we'll find out that mental states depend on many non-brain body parts and are therefore even harder to model than we now believe. I also feel like a hypothetical "restored" post-cryonic brain will be exposed to such a different environment that it will develop a completely different identity almost immediately, so it won't be you at all. And that's even if we grant the assumption of continuity of consciousness in a restoration / simulation to begin with.
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Jun 27, 2018 08:57
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there wolf posted:More than once in trans spaces I've come across people wondering why transhumanists have such a bad reputation and it's entirely because their image of a transhumanist is a gender-queer person wanting cool robot bodies and cyberpunk body mods. I'm down for cyberpunk body mods. pidan posted:I suspect we'll find out that mental states depend on many non-brain body parts and are therefore even harder to model than we now believe. I also feel like a hypothetical "restored" post-cryonic brain will be exposed to such a different environment that it will develop a completely different identity almost immediately, so it won't be you at all. And that's even if we grant the assumption of continuity of consciousness in a restoration / simulation to begin with. Read any Transmetropolitan? Even if we manage a 1:1 recreation of the brain's ideal body, chances are a future that has that level of tech will freak the returned consciousness into catatonia the same way dropping a 4th century peasant into Times Square on New Years' Eve would.
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Jun 27, 2018 09:09
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90s Cringe Rock posted:lol if your foom can't reconstruct the missing bits from your blog posts and reddit account That's the other approach. Take a cheap off-the-shelf-AI and program it to say "what?" and "where's the tea?" and "women are inherently less rational and less intelligent than men." Nobody would be able to tell the difference from the original person, and from a philosophical perspective isn't that the same as being identical?
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Jun 27, 2018 09:49
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please do not taint douglas adams' memory with rationalists
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Jun 27, 2018 10:09
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Liquid Communism posted:I'm down for cyberpunk body mods. I've never bought the argument about being shocked into a catatonic state by seeing a bunch of cars and people but maybe I'm just lacking imagination.
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Jun 27, 2018 11:51
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Frankly people are doing ancient people a disservice when they act like a Dark Ages peasant would die of shock in Times Square. If they could speak English they'd be fine. It's just moderns wanting to pretend they're special. VVVV edit I was just thinking about the Transmet reference specifically Relevant Tangent has a new favorite as of 12:05 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 11:59
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I don't think they'd die of shock, but their conception of their identity would change fundamentally in a very short time. This wouldn't necessarily hurt them in any measurable way, but it would make them a completely different person.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:02
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Cavelcade posted:I've never bought the argument about being shocked into a catatonic state by seeing a bunch of cars and people but maybe I'm just lacking imagination. I mean, being suddenly expected to live in the world of Transmetropolitan does feel like it would shock most people into a catatonic state, probably right around the time they see the column of Adolf Hitler sex dwarves trooping out of a Long Pig restaurant while in the advanced stages of cosmetic Ebola.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:03
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None of those things are even slightly inconceivable/incomprehensible. They're shocking but they're not going to make your brain stop. They're not outside basic human behavior. It's just foolish to think that humans of the future are going to behave in non-human ways. We don't.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:09
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Relevant Tangent posted:None of those things are even slightly inconceivable/incomprehensible. They're shocking but they're not going to make your brain stop. They're not outside basic human behavior. It's just foolish to think that humans of the future are going to behave in non-human ways. We don't. Things ‘not being outside basic human behaviour (assuming that you already have a baseline level of exposure to how bizarre and extreme human behaviour can get)’ is largely irrelevant to how alarming/horrifying/wearing you might find them to live with every day. I mean, immigrants in the real world experience disproportionately high stress and suicide rates even without a language barrier.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:21
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Qwertycoatl posted:Have you considered the possibility that in the future an AI god will read your forum posts and use them as a basis to resurrect you? Because they have. I know they believed it but I've never really thought about it and how is that even supposed to be comforting? Like there's obviously no continuity of consciousness let alone all the other problems with it, so unless that's one of the many 'AI god will foreverially torture fake-you unless you give money to my grift' justifications I don't get it.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:26
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Darth Walrus posted:Things ‘not being outside basic human behaviour (assuming that you already have a baseline level of exposure to how bizarre and extreme human behaviour can get)’ is largely irrelevant to how alarming/horrifying/wearing you might find them to live with every day. I mean, immigrants in the real world experience disproportionately high stress and suicide rates even without a language barrier. Oh, this element is much more believable but that's to do with complex social interactions and depends on the society they're coming from and going to and still represents a choice - bring unwilling to adapt to ask the madness is more believable than being unable to, which is how the rationalists always phrase it.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:26
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I'm pretty sure part of it, in Transmet, is revivals being unceremoniously dumped into a shelter at night and out on the street during the day. They've got nothing, and the people "looking after" them are just the revivals who're handling it better, while anyone who actually does just nod at culture shock stuff like ebola cola and "we don't actually really know what year it is" either gets out of there and lives a normal life, or tries to and fails because they've got gently caress-all resources and don't know anyone who can help. Wossname who Spider gives a camera winds up in a much better mental place fairly quickly, after all.
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Jun 27, 2018 12:28
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pidan posted:I don't get why some people are so obsessed with copying and preserving their brain state. They'll still be dead! I think many of them have a kind of dissociated narcissism, which is a bullshit phrase I just made up but it sure feels right. They already see themselves as objects, in a way, so they're not sure how an identical object is not also themselves. This would also explain their really tight bonding with other similar people-objects, and their propensity to be extremely tribal, horrifically egotistical, etc. Maybe they CAN see people as instances of the abstract 'people' object, and they can assuage their consciences by saying that they fully support the abstract people object the best possible way (i.e. effective altruism). This allows them so view themselves as a good and moral person-object as they strive to perfect their beautiful thought-garden intellects --- but the only kind of person-object they can truly understand, empathize with, or love, is their own.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:03
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90s Cringe Rock posted:I'm pretty sure part of it, in Transmet, is revivals being unceremoniously dumped into a shelter at night and out on the street during the day. They've got nothing, and the people "looking after" them are just the revivals who're handling it better, while anyone who actually does just nod at culture shock stuff like ebola cola and "we don't actually really know what year it is" either gets out of there and lives a normal life, or tries to and fails because they've got gently caress-all resources and don't know anyone who can help. Yeah, it's definitely not that the culture is too shocking it's that people are still assholes and they're coming into the situation as adults with zero resources. I mean, she recognizes the President, is aware that Spider might be interested, and is able to navigate the technology to get him the photos. I just think the idea that the people of the future are going to be incomprehensible is stupid. If you gave a Dark Ages peasant some time they'd be able to navigate the present. We're not fundamentally different from the people who existed thousands of years ago, never mind hundreds.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:17
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pidan posted:I don't get why some people are so obsessed with copying and preserving their brain state. They'll still be dead! And it's really unlikely that some 2018 rationalist's brain contains just the information the future needs for something important. They treat the brain like it's the soul and if they follow the right rituals and burial rights then one day when god comes down from the heavens they'll be resurrected and allowed into paradise while all the sinners will be judged and cast out.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:09
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Sax Solo posted:I think many of them have a kind of dissociated narcissism, which is a bullshit phrase I just made up but it sure feels right. I've said before that you need to have not a very strong sense of self to fall hard for the Basilisk and the "copies of you are also you".
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Jun 27, 2018 15:01
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pidan posted:I don't get why some people are so obsessed with copying and preserving their brain state. They'll still be dead! And it's really unlikely that some 2018 rationalist's brain contains just the information the future needs for something important. Don't worry they thought of this. See, you just memorize the answer to some puzzling riddle, or the secret map to get to a bunch of buried treasure, and let everyone know that you know it and you'll tell whoever revives you so they have incentive to thaw you out! Ignore that if we have the technology to do that we'd probably have the technology to just read your brain and take the information directly, that's cheating 
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Jun 27, 2018 15:05
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90s Cringe Rock posted:I'm pretty sure part of it, in Transmet, is revivals being unceremoniously dumped into a shelter at night and out on the street during the day. They've got nothing, and the people "looking after" them are just the revivals who're handling it better, while anyone who actually does just nod at culture shock stuff like ebola cola and "we don't actually really know what year it is" either gets out of there and lives a normal life, or tries to and fails because they've got gently caress-all resources and don't know anyone who can help. And it was written in the Thatcher/Reagan era when social services were gutted, state-funded mental hospitals emptied out into the streets. "Confused homeless person in an urban hellscape" was a growing social class/concern. If you imagine the revived person in Transmet is suffering from hallucinations and just thinks they're in the future then you could set it at any time after 1980 while changing almost nothing else. It's practically non-fiction. That's what happens. Relevant Tangent posted:We're not fundamentally different from the people who existed thousands of years ago, never mind hundreds. That's kinda the point, the future is going to be a lot like the present but more crowded and complex. I mean it's easy enough to take the standard "If I went back in time I'd be considered a god/brilliant inventor" and simply flip it around to see what horrors emerge, but you don't have to speculate, there are already millions of living real-world examples and they all have the benefit of not actually being in an entirely different historical era on top of all that. Most people now struggle to survive when you drop them off on another continent with no resources, no community, no way home, and a completely alien language and level of technology. Look at how we treat people like that, and have throughout history, and then imagine being in a tier below that.
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Jun 27, 2018 15:08
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Transmet was written in the late 90s, when the formerly left-wing parties had sold their souls to get elected after Reagan / Thatcher.
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Jun 27, 2018 15:13
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Transmet was written in the late 90s, when the formerly left-wing parties had sold their souls to get elected after Reagan / Thatcher. The Smiler, for instance, is mostly Tony Blair, although he does also have a fair few elements from Nixon (because gonzo homage).
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Jun 27, 2018 15:39
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divabot posted:I've said before that you need to have not a very strong sense of self to fall hard for the Basilisk and the "copies of you are also you". A huge factor is that "copies of you are also you" is one of the assumptions that makes Rationalist Immortality a possibility, so you have to believe it because if you don't you'll die. The same goes for a lot of the other insane stuff in the Yud canon like acausal trade. That's what makes the Basilisk so potent: there are plenty of obvious ways out of it, but taking any of them means giving up on the hope of eternal life. The Lone Badger posted:That's the other approach. Take a cheap off-the-shelf-AI and program it to say "what?" and "where's the tea?" and "women are inherently less rational and less intelligent than men." Nobody would be able to tell the difference from the original person, and from a philosophical perspective isn't that the same as being identical? 90s Cringe Rock posted:lol if your foom can't reconstruct the missing bits from your blog posts and reddit account https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg29TuWo0Yo
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Jun 27, 2018 15:44
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Wasn't a descent into endless nature-of-consciousness navelgazing what sunk the old LW mock thread?
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Jun 27, 2018 16:18
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I'm pretty sure it was that it was in GBS. Or possibly D&D. Might also have been that people who took it seriously got involved and poo poo it up. It was forever ago though.
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Jun 27, 2018 16:25
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That thread was just "let's re-explain Roko's Basilisk to each other for the hundredth time this week" by the end
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Jun 27, 2018 18:11
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Anil Dasharez0ne posted:I went to Jewish day school up until third grade and one of my best friends there was the son of a rabbi, and I can definitely understand how growing up in that environment could lead to someone like Yud. There's even a story in the Talmud about how you can defeat God if your arguments are good enough
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Jun 27, 2018 20:23
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pookel posted:This is the most Jewish thing I've heard in quite a while. Three thousand years of
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Jun 28, 2018 05:43
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pookel posted:This is the most Jewish thing I've heard in quite a while. I saw a post from a Jewish friend that said that being Jewish was a lot like constantly trying to rules-lawyer God. "But if you see here, I can symbolically declare this chunk of Manhattan a 'house' using an unbroken symbolic 'wall' for the purposes of maintaining the Sabbath, and then I can go outside and do some things while not technically violating the rules."
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Jun 28, 2018 05:44
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Commissar Kayla posted:I saw a post from a Jewish friend that said that being Jewish was a lot like constantly trying to rules-lawyer God. "But if you see here, I can symbolically declare this chunk of Manhattan a 'house' using an unbroken symbolic 'wall' for the purposes of maintaining the Sabbath, and then I can go outside and do some things while not technically violating the rules." Yeah I've heard the same thing, but also that God really likes it when you do that and rewards your cleverness.
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Jun 28, 2018 05:54
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Relevant Tangent posted:Frankly people are doing ancient people a disservice when they act like a Dark Ages peasant would die of shock in Times Square. If they could speak English they'd be fine. It's just moderns wanting to pretend they're special. 
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Jun 28, 2018 05:57
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The Vosgian Beast posted:That thread was just "let's re-explain Roko's Basilisk to each other for the hundredth time this week" by the end you know, I literally joined SA with the intention of posting in that thread ofc it was locked by the time i got there at least this is here. and the buttcoin thraeds
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Jun 28, 2018 08:11
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Anil Dasharez0ne posted:I went to Jewish day school up until third grade and one of my best friends there was the son of a rabbi, and I can definitely understand how growing up in that environment could lead to someone like Yud. There's even a story in the Talmud about how you can defeat God if your arguments are good enough, which somewhat fittingly concerns the excommunication of Rabbi Eliezer.
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Jun 28, 2018 08:37
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Terrible Opinions posted:Which story in particular is this anyways? Literally the one that just got linked there.
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Jun 28, 2018 09:41
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In my defense I am very stupid.
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Jun 28, 2018 10:19
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Terrible Opinions posted:In my defense I am very stupid. this would be the perfect username for me if only it were shorter
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Jun 29, 2018 16:07
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something differentquote:The Enlightenment was always a dark enlightenment. Viciousness and brutality in their most unmediated forms were still – and are – deemed appropriate for the colonies. Today, our everyday and surplus sadisms are inextricable from capitalism’s history of racist violence
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Jul 2, 2018 04:52
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The Vosgian Beast posted:That thread was just "let's re-explain Roko's Basilisk to each other for the hundredth time this week" by the end  "timeless decision theory" etc?I may or may not be a perfectly simulated consciousness running on a quantum hypercomputer in the distant future, and according to their scifi novel reasoning I almost certainly am since simulations outnumber reality. If I'm a simulation and I displease the computer, it will punish me harshly. Ergo, if I believe in this garbage, I should act in the computer's interests to avoid real punishment visited on myself immediately. Why do I need to care about whether other incarnations of myself are tortured? Is it just tied up in the mangled game theory of why the computer must and will follow through on its threats even though I'm long dead and I imagined those threats in the first place?
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Jul 2, 2018 05:38
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Pitch posted:Real question: why does the basilisk even need to be so complicated as to involve Because they need a reason why the incredibly unlikely ridiculously stupid preconditions for god-AI to be real and to do the exact things they want it to will happen with 100% certainty
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Jul 2, 2018 05:52
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I think this was from the old Roko threadSaeku posted:On the topic of simulation hypothesis: I met a Rationalist who said he tried his best to spend his life around influencers and great men. If outsiders are simulating this world to observe it, at some point they might turn off the boring parts of the simulation to save processing power, so he wanted to be in the interesting part. MizPiz posted:If the observers wanted to save processing power, wouldn't they delete the people leeching off the influencers and great men first? BioEnchanted posted:*Alt-righter is turned off while right in the middle of a conversation with Mark Twain and Steven Hawking*
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Jul 2, 2018 14:49
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ate all the Oreos posted:Because they need a reason why the incredibly unlikely ridiculously stupid preconditions for god-AI to be real and to do the exact things they want it to will happen with 100% certainty Alternatively, have you ever met someone where the minute they learn about something new they try to work it in everywhere, even places where it doesn't fit? That.
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Jul 2, 2018 14:56
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