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CelticPredator posted:Luke can see the future all. It's idiotic to explain it away by energy field God trying to create "balance". This is what happens when nerds internalize quasi-morality from fiction.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:33
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Because a threat of violence or actions which would reasonably be taken as such are sufficient for an assault charge in many jurisdictions, Luke could be said to have committed assault with a deadly weapon despite not having swung. In this case, if I understand correctly, the fleeting nature of his intent is not relevant because he could reasonably be expected to know that Ben would understand his actions as a threat of violence. In England, for example: quote:Assault (or common assault) is committed if one intentionally or recklessly causes another person to apprehend immediate and unlawful personal violence. Violence in this context means any unlawful touching, though there is some debate over whether the touching must also be hostile. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 19:39
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I would have liked to see Ben sue Luke for tortious assault.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:40
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euphronius posted:I would have liked to see Ben sue Luke for tortious assault. Snoke shows him the unlimited legal power of "Tubal Cain."
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Jul 3, 2018 19:49
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CelticPredator posted:Luke will also use this in the court to show that yes, Ben Solo is a monster and must die. just a reminder that true canon consists of this and movies that have episode numbers
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Jul 3, 2018 19:50
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Ingmar terdman posted:just a reminder that true canon consists of this and movies that have episode numbers That's actually what Luke saw when he looked into Ben's heart.
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Jul 3, 2018 19:57
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Just wanted to pop in to mention Ahmed Best is a pro Twitter follow (he's not even verified!) and he's been talking pretty personally about his TPM experience and wants to do a one-man show. Also because Star War fans are trash he was almost driven to suicide https://twitter.com/ahmedbest/status/1014222723764162561 Best is good, TPM is good and Jar Jar is good.
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Jul 3, 2018 20:23
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No Mods No Masters posted:For the Luke did nothing wrong crowd, why then did he go into exile? Abandoning the republic, the Jedi, family and friends, the kid in your care who you just colossally hosed up mentally, etc. becomes even more reprehensible if there was basically no reason for him to do so. It's because he is a flawed character whose main issue has ALWAYS been pride and he hosed up huge. I don't see anyone saying he did nothing wrong.
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Jul 3, 2018 20:30
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Kazoo Reverb posted:I don't see anyone saying he did nothing wrong. Gonna have to agree to disagree with you on that one, on the last page alone.
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Jul 3, 2018 20:40
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No Mods No Masters posted:Gonna have to agree to disagree with you on that one, on the last page alone. I see a lot of stupid legal debate on a legal charge, but I don't see anyone saying none of his actions were wrong. I also see you accusing him of actual murder so....
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Jul 3, 2018 20:52
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Luke feels he did something wrong and could no longer be trusted. That's why he sent himself into exile.
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Jul 3, 2018 21:00
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Bongo Bill posted:Luke feels he did something wrong and could no longer be trusted. That's why he sent himself into exile. Pretty much this. "Luke didn't walk in there planning a murder" ≠ "Luke did nothing wrong". He hosed up, big time. But the people parroting "hurr durr Luke tried to kill his nephew" are absolutely 100% incorrect
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Jul 3, 2018 21:25
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I wonder if the "handful of students" Ren took with him are the guards in Snoaks throne room
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Jul 3, 2018 21:58
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Kazoo Reverb posted:I wonder if the "handful of students" Ren took with him are the guards in Snoaks throne room Rian Johnson has said that no, those are not the Knights of Ren. He said he didn't want to use the Knights, because he knew he would kill them.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:01
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Kazoo Reverb posted:I wonder if the "handful of students" Ren took with him are the guards in Snoaks throne room I had assumed the students were his Knights of Ren who Snoke mentions in Force Awakens but someone else in the thread mentioned that canonically they're just "some dudes."  Edit: Beaten like those guys everyone thought were the Knights of Ren.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:21
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What people don't comprehend is how bizarre Luke Skywalker's and Kylo Ren's arcs are in the might of the former planning to murder the latter. When they reunite on salt planet Kylo Ren is treated as a crazy man for wanting to kill Skywalker... Even though it's completely sensible for him to exact justice. Instead Skywalker them coolly owns him and then peaces out because he's the better man. Who tried to kill his nephew. jivjov posted:"hurr durr Luke tried to kill his nephew" Thank you for the ableist language. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 3, 2018 |
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Jul 3, 2018 22:28
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Ben is scared shitless of Luke, and with good reason; he's on the verge of panic throughout that scene. Luke is leaning hard into that because he is trying to intimidate him.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:35
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jivjov posted:Pretty much this. Luke did try to kill Ben.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:36
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I think if Luke had tried, he would have succeeded.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
...To serve the Emperor. The whole reason Vader tests the carbonite freezing chamber on Han is to make sure Luke would remain alive when it was used, so he can be given to the Emperor. The entire fight scene in RotJ is about Luke rejecting the Emperor's invitation to become his apprentice, and perhaps replace Vader. The Emperor and Vader are doing everything they can to goad Luke into giving into his anger and kill someone in a fit of rage, just as Anakin did with the sand people, so that Luke will turn to the dark side. I'm hoping we're just talking past one another here. quote:
quote:Correct. Vader succeeds where Anakin fails, freeing not only himself but the entire universe from The Force. Again, this happens before everything else. All the suit does is externalize what was already on the inside. Anakin's clothing darkens over the course of the three films, from the sandy tan of TPM, ending with him clad in full black of the Vader suit. Vader's transformation is played as nothing but a bathetic tragedy, hence the ease with which we mock his cry of "Noooooo!" upon learning of his wife and children's deaths. Viewing Vader as a liberating hero is simply not borne out by the text. At the end of RotS, he helps place the entire galaxy under the control of the master of the dark side of the force, who is about to construct the Death Star. At the end of RotJ, he has killed the Emperor, and given control to his son, the last of the Jedi, and we see how wonderfully that has worked out in the next two films. At no point has Vader freed the galaxy from the grip of the force. The powerful mutants are still in control.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:48
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In Empire, Vader tells Palpatine that he's got a great new idea: instead of killing Luke, I'll capture him to serve you. However, secretly, his plan was to recruit Luke so he'd have backup when he tried to usurp the Emperor. In Jedi, after Luke made it clear he's not joining up, Vader still has to keep up the appearance of the original proposal of bringing Luke to serve the Emperor. Luke offers him a counter-proposal: why don't you quit working for the Emperor and instead help the rebels kill him. Their two ideas have one thing in common: that Luke and Vader would team up to kill the Emperor. Where they disagree is in what comes after that, which is politics. Luke seems to want a new Republic, Vader wants a change of autocratic management. The prequels, and to a lesser extent the sequels, are critical of the idea of the Republic, demonstrating both that it was never as good as it was cracked up to be and that it contained the seeds of its own destruction. Not that it has anything better to say about the Empire. We can suppose either that Vader's Empire would've differed from Palpatine's in some substantial way, or that Vader's longing for a just and orderly Empire was doomed to be incapable of accomplishing anything more than propping up Palpatine's totalitarian oppression. In the sequel trilogy, the new Republic collapsed into Empire in one generation instead of in a thousand, a story we've seen before, only this time the echo of Vader successfully overthrew the echo of Palpatine. What JJ has Kylo Ren actually doing with the First Order now that he's in charge of it will be pretty significant.
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Jul 3, 2018 22:58
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That the galaxy essentially passed on in rule to Luke is a good point. Like, most of the questions about the First Order miss the point. The First Order is able to step in because Luke went away. Snoke appeared because Luke left a void a powerful Force Person could step into.
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Jul 3, 2018 23:00
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Bongo Bill posted:However, secretly, his plan was to recruit Luke so he'd have backup when he tried to usurp the Emperor. This is an interesting theory and I'd like to hear more about it. Can you back it up with some examples from the text? We have the speech that Vader gives to Luke in Cloud City about ruling the galaxy together as father and son, which may or may not be an attempt to deceive him, weighed against the events of Return of the Jedi. For example: quote:
This doesn't strike me as a dialogue about someone trying to convince his son to help him kill the Emperor. The two of them are alone, (if I recall properly, the only time it is just the two of them other than the Cloud City fight and Anakin's death scene), and Vader gives no indication that there's a secret plan for the two of them to usurp the Emperor. In fact, when Luke does try to kill the Emperor, Vader stops him, much to the Emperor's delight. quote:
Why save the Emperor's life, if it's Vader's plan to kill him all along? I'm interested in hearing more of the alternate theory, but right now, I'm not seeing it line up with the events in the film. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, though.
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Jul 4, 2018 00:08
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Toph Bei Fong posted:This is an interesting theory and I'd like to hear more about it. Can you back it up with some examples from the text? Vader gives up on the plan to usurp the Emperor between TESB and ROTJ (for not entirely clear reasons--I guess because Luke still believes in the Republic). I don't know how you can interpret Vader's dialogue in TESB as anything but "let's kill the Emperor and take over."
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Jul 4, 2018 00:30
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Bongo Bill posted:Ben is scared shitless of Luke, and with good reason; he's on the verge of panic throughout that scene. Luke is leaning hard into that because he is trying to intimidate him. This is true. Ben's terrified of Luke. Sounds pretty weird for a Jedi to go and trigger someone with obvious trauma when you think about it, though.
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Jul 4, 2018 00:37
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Toph Bei Fong posted:In fact, when Luke does try to kill the Emperor, Vader stops him, much to the Emperor's delight. You obviously don't understand that ol' Sheev isn't ever actually in danger. Vader stops Luke's killing blow because he has to. Otherwise, Sheev would probably kill Luke then kill Vader for betraying him. Like, Sheev isn't actually defenceless when he says he is.
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Jul 4, 2018 00:42
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I wonder if Disney will ever get desperate enough at some point in the future to bring Palpatine back from the dead.
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Jul 4, 2018 00:46
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Basebf555 posted:I wonder if Disney will ever get desperate enough at some point in the future to bring Palpatine back from the dead. The'll just make a new character, "Snoke II."
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Jul 4, 2018 00:50
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sponges posted:Luke did try to kill Ben. He literally explicitly doesn't.
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Jul 4, 2018 00:52
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jivjov posted:He literally explicitly doesn't. We see it happen on screen. He stops himself, but he literally explicitly does. He draws a weapon on an unaware target with the intent to kill.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:05
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Astribulus posted:We see it happen on screen. He stops himself, but he literally explicitly does. He draws a weapon on an unaware target with the intent to kill. He never swings. He never actually makes an attack. He has a temptation to kill, and doesn't do it. There's never an attempt made. Actually WATCH the film.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:07
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:What people don't comprehend is how bizarre Luke Skywalker's and Kylo Ren's arcs are in the might of the former planning to murder the latter. the last jedi really has no idea what it wants to be, it's a movie really at odds with itself. i initially chalked it up as 'rian johnson wanted to do his own thing but disney was holding him back from doing anything too out there' but i don't have any hard evidence and i doubt rian will be saying a bad word as long as that trilogy is still planned it's no wonder that it ended up so divisive, no matter what you feel about star wars as a whole there's stuff in there to either please you or piss you off
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Jul 4, 2018 01:11
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jivjov posted:He never swings. He never actually makes an attack. He has a temptation to kill, and doesn't do it. There's never an attempt made. Actually WATCH the film. It's a lightsaber. It doesn't take a swing. It takes lowering the blade roughly two feet to execute his nephew. We see how little force is required when a lightsaber later ignites directly through Snoke. I'd turn your argument right back at you, except its nonsense. Both of us have watched the film. You are just choosing to be extremely charitable in your interpretation of on-screen events.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:14
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would we be having this conversation if luke had a gun? 'yeah he pulled it out and pointed it at his sleeping nephew, but he didn't technically fire it'
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Jul 4, 2018 01:17
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I think that would make it even easier to see that no actual attempt to kill was made.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:22
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pointing a gun at someone whether or not you intend to fire is considered assault in many states in america, as it should be
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Jul 4, 2018 01:27
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Brother Entropy posted:would we be having this conversation if luke had a gun? 'yeah he pulled it out and pointed it at his sleeping nephew, but he didn't technically fire it' Likewise, if you were to describe the situation but not name the perp as Luke I bet most people would call the individual a lunatic who should be in a padded cell. Ultimately I can't really read Luke in star wars 8 as anything but some kind of apathetic narcissist/sociopath. Most of his actions seem to be motivated by the desire not to look bad, but in the laziest way possible. I'd hate to tell Han and Leia that I abused their child, better go hide from them for years while I wait for them to die off. Better die a hero, but too lazy to actually get off my rear end in the process. And so on.
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Jul 4, 2018 01:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4AQZMTkTQ Surprised no one bothered to post the scenes, handy that someone cut’em together. Luke's recollection of the memory is interesting for the story he tells himself. Initially he doesn't even remember having his weapon drawn, but it's only after Ben tells the truth about what happens that he alters his story. brawleh fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 01:28
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Love his little cry of "Ben, no!" at the end. As if Ben is the one being unreasonable in this situation
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Jul 4, 2018 01:33
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really the greatest problem with that whole scenario is the same problem with a lot of the ST so far: this really weird reluctance to show off or discuss the time period between ROTJ and TFA. all we have to go off of that ben was being seduced by snoke and the dark side was luke going 'hey i had a bad vibe' at the exact time period where we're supposed to be most skeptical of luke's pov(as noted by brawleh above). there's no scene of ben being too violent during lightsaber training or emotionally lashing out against luke or leia or a scene where luke finds a snoke fanzine and some tortured womp rats under ben's bed. it's weird and sloppy
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Jul 4, 2018 01:35
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