Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

Well, rationally,

# ? May 30, 2018 13:30

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# ? May 17, 2024 14:22

divabot: Jun 17, 2015; A polite little mouse!

Tiggum posted:

Somehow I doubt that torturing the people who work for you for the slightest failure is actually a great way to get them to give you their best efforts and unwavering loyalty.

I'm sure (Yudkowsky would never have torture as his go-to trope how dare you)/(torture was clearly the rational choice in this situation) *

* delete according to whichever works best related to the previous sentence, and never mind any previous sentences, context or common loving sense.

# ? May 30, 2018 17:16

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Tiggum posted:

Somehow I doubt that torturing the people who work for you for the slightest failure is actually a great way to get them to give you their best efforts and unwavering loyalty.

Disproportionate punishment of failure is a great way to ensure that when your underlings fail, they'll never tell you about it if it can at all be avoided. Good luck running anything, whether it be a corporation or a group of magical terrorists, when you can never be sure whether any mission or work assignment you gave then was actually ever completed.

# ? May 30, 2018 17:16

Butter Activities: May 4, 2018

Cardiovorax posted:

Disproportionate punishment of failure is a great way to ensure that when your underlings fail, they'll never tell you about it if it can at all be avoided. Good luck running anything, whether it be a corporation or a group of magical terrorists, when you can never be sure whether any mission or work assignment you gave then was actually ever completed.

Or even better they'll try to set someone else up for failure, leading to a wonderful work culture.

I saw this all the time in the Navy's surface fleet, "hey new guy I hear you're really ambitious how about you take over this thing that we irreparably hosed up a week before some major inspection or certification will happen that you don't know about?"

# ? Jun 2, 2018 21:27

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 93: Roles, Pt 4

quote:

Harry had walked into the Great Hall, looked around only once, grabbed enough calories to sustain himself, walked out, put on his Cloak again and found a small random corner in which to eat. Seeing the students at their tables -

Feeling revulsion when you look at other humans is not a good sign, Hufflepuff said. It's not reasonable to blame them for having not had your opportunities to learn what you've learned. Inaction in emergencies has nothing to do with people being selfish. Normalcy bias, like that plane crash in Tener-something where a few people ran out and escaped but most people just sat in their seats not moving while their plane was literally on fire. Look at how long you took to really start moving.

It serves no useful purpose to hate, said Gryffindor. It's just going to damage your altruism.

Try to figure out a training method you could use to prevent this from happening next time, said Ravenclaw.

I'll go ahead and register the experimental prediction, said Slytherin, that we'll always observe exactly what would be predicted on the hypothesis that people cannot be saved, cannot be taught, and will never help us with anything important. Also, we need some way of keeping track of all the times I'm right.

quote:

The first letter said, in script handwriting that required a careful focus for Harry to read,

The two most important things I have to tell you are this. First, son, I have every confidence in your ability to stay on the Light Side of the Force so long as you choose to, and I have every confidence that you will choose to. If there's some evil spirit whispering horrible suggestions in your ears, just ignore the suggestions. I do feel the need to emphasize that you should exercise special caution to ignore this evil spirit even if it is suggesting what seem like wonderful creative ideas and I hope I do not need to remind you about the Incident with the Science Project which would, I admit, make a deal more sense if you were struggling with demonic possession.

The second thing I have to say is that you do not need to fear that Mum or I are going to abandon you because of your 'dark side'.

This would be more effective if the Evans-Potters weren't written as such terrible assholes. Or if the author ever realized that he wrote them as terrible assholes.

quote:

Professor Minerva McGonagall rose from her chair, straightened the worn point on her hat, walked slowly to the lectern before the Head Table.

The sounds in the Great Hall, already muted, fell away entirely as all students turned to look at her.

"By now you have all heard," she said, her voice not quite steady. That Hermione Granger is dead. She didn't say those words aloud, since they had all heard. "Somehow, a troll was infiltrated into the castle Hogwarts without alarm from our ancient wards. Somehow this troll succeeded in injuring a student, without alarm from the wards until the point of her death. Investigations are underway to determine how this has occurred. The Board of Governors is meeting to determine how Hogwarts will respond. In due time justice shall be served. Meanwhile there is another matter of justice, which must be handled at once. George Weasley, Fred Weasley, please come forward to stand before us all."

The Weasley twins exchanged glances where they sat at the Gryffindor table, and then stood up and walked toward her, slowly, reluctantly; and Minerva realized then that the Weasley twins thought that they were to be expelled.

They honestly thought that she would expel them.

That was what the picture of Professor McGonagall who lived in her head had wrought.

...

Fred Weasley, George Weasley," she said. "The two of you have not always done what is right. The path of wisdom does not lie in flagrant and needless defiance of authority. And yet today you proved to be the last of our House to survive my mistakes. Because it was the right thing to do, you defied a threat of expulsion and risked your lives to face a mountain troll. For your astounding courage that honors your House to have you, I award each of you two hundred points for Gryffindor."

Again the look of shock on their faces, again the pain like a knife through her heart.

She turned to face the other students.

"I will not award any points to Ravenclaw," she said. "I suspect that Mr. Potter would not want them. If I am wrong, he may correct me and take as many House points as he pleases. But for whatever it is worth, Mr. Potter, I am," her voice faltered, "I am sorry -"

"Stop! " Harry screamed, and then, again, "Stop." The word sticking in his throat. "You don't have to, Professor." Something inside him was twisting, threatening to split him open, like a giant's hands wrenching at him to tear him in half. "And, and you shouldn't forget Susan Bones, and Ron Weasley - they also helped, they should get House points too -"

....

Harry looked and saw that Susan Bones had stepped forward, wiping at her own eyes, and the Hufflepuff girl said, "Actually - Professor McGonagall - General Potter didn't see it - but Captain Weasley and I weren't the only ones who tried to get in Mr. Hagrid's way, after he ran out. Before some of the older students stopped us. But we managed to slow Mr. Hagrid down a minute, so General Potter could get away."

"You've got to give them points too," said Ron Weasley from the Gryffindor table. "Or I won't take any."

"Who else?" said Professor McGonagall, her voice a bit unsteady.

Seven other children stood up.

What was that our Slytherin side was saying about predicting nothing would ever work? said Hufflepuff.

Something in Harry cracked, so that he had to exert all his force to hold himself together.

When all had been said, and all had been done, Minerva went to where Harry Potter stood. Though it was not her greatest skill she cast a ward about them to blur vision, and muffled sounds with another thought.

"You, you didn't have to -" said Harry Potter. "You shouldn't have said -" He sounded like he was choking. "P-Professor, everything I said to you was hurtful, and hateful, and wrong -"

"I already knew that, Harry," she said. "Even so, I wished to do better." There was a feeling of lightness in her chest, much as one might experience after stepping off a cliff, when your legs no longer had to hold your body upright. She wasn't sure she could do this, she did not know the way; and yet for the first time it seemed possible that Hogwarts wouldn't become a sad ghost of its former self, when she became its Headmistress.

Harry stared at her, then made a odd noise that sounded like it had been forced from his throat, and covered his face in his hands.

So she knelt down, and hugged him. It might go wrong, but it might also go right, and she would not let that uncertainty stop her; it was time she began to learn a Gryffindor's courage, so that she could teach it in turn.

"I had a sister once," she whispered. Just that, and nothing more.

Just to make sure, said some part of Harry, while the rest of him sobbed into Professor McGonagall's arms, this doesn't mean we've accepted Hermione's death, right?

NO said all the rest of him, every part of his mind in unanimous agreement, warmth and cold and a hidden place of steel. Never, ever, forever.

And an ancient wizard to whom that ward meant nothing gazed upon them both, the witch and the weeping young wizard. Albus Dumbledore was smiling with a strange sad look in his eyes, like someone who has taken one more step toward a foreseen destination.

The Defense Professor watched them both, the woman and the crying boy. His eyes were very cold, and very calculating.

He did not think that this would be enough.

It wasn't until the next morning that it was discovered that Hermione Granger's body was missing.

I guess I'm not enough of a sociopath to put myself into the head of what Yud would think of as a master manipulator, so I have no idea what Quirrelmort is trying to do here. This seems conter-productive to turning Harriezer to the dark side.

Also, HPMOR McGonagall sucks even more than usual when slobbering over Harry's cock.

# ? Jun 10, 2018 10:33

Samovar: Jun 4, 2011; I'm 😤 not a 🦸🏻‍♂️hero...🧜🏻

Apparently something utterly bonkers has been happening with the LessWrong community?

# ? Jun 21, 2018 19:05

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

Samovar posted:

Apparently something utterly bonkers has been happening with the LessWrong community?

The medium post linked by this tweet has Kathy Forth's suicide note. It's extensive, and identifies a lot of issues in the rationalist/EA community while still being written by someone so deep in she couldn't see a way out. The twitter thread is also long and worth reading. There's some discussion of it in the dark enlightenment thread, and sneer club.

# ? Jun 21, 2018 19:29

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 94: Roles, Pt 5

quote:

"Harry," the Headmaster said without preamble, "before I say what I must say next, I tell you that Hermione Granger did truly die. The wards recorded it and informed me. The very stones spoke that a witch had died. I tested her body where it lay and those were Hermione Granger's true mortal remains, not any doll or likeness. There is no way known to wizardry by which death may be undone. All this being said, Hermione Granger's remains are now missing from the storeroom where they were placed, and where you guarded them. Did you take them, Harry Potter?"

"No," Harry said, narrowing his eyes. A glance showed him that Severus was watching him intently.

Dumbledore's gaze was also keen, though not unfriendly. "Is Hermione Granger's body in your possession?"

"No."

"Do you know where it is?"

"No."

"Do you know who took it?"

"No," Harry said, then hesitated. "Besides the obvious probabilistic speculations which are not based upon any specific knowledge of mine."

...

Severus," said the old wizard, and the Potions Master moved forward. "Check his trunk as well, every compartment."

"My trunk has wards."

Severus Snape grinned mirthlessly and strode into the green flame.

Dumbledore took out his long dark-grey wand and began to wave it close around Harry's hair, looking like a Muggle using a metal-detector. Before he had reached as far as Harry's neck, Dumbledore stopped.

"The gem upon your ring," Dumbledore said. "It is no longer a clear diamond. It is brown, the color of Hermione Granger's eyes, and the color of her hair."

A sudden tension filled the room.

"That's my father's rock," Harry said. "Transfigured the same as before. I just did it to remember Hermione -"

"I must be sure. Take off that ring, Harry, and place it upon my desk."

Slowly, Harry did so, removing the gem and setting the ring off to the other side of the desk.

quote:

Dumbledore resumed his examination. Harry had to remove his left shoe, and take off the toe-ring that was his emergency portkey if someone kidnapped him and took him outside the wards of Hogwarts (and didn't put up anti-Apparition, anti-portkey, anti-phoenix, and anti-time-looping wards, which Severus had warned Harry that any inner-circle Death Eater would certainly do)

Ahaha. Of course that's a thing. If your heroes have a bunch of bullshit powers and are determined to exploit them to the fullest, then you have to at least pretend their enemies will have some way to answer that - even though the basic ability not to trip and abra-kedabra all your allies was the only qualification for the "inner circle" in the cannon.

quote:

"There is other news, but I shall be brief. The wards of Hogwarts record that no foreign creature has entered, and that it was the Defense Professor who killed Hermione Granger."

"Um," Harry said.

Thought 1: But I saw the troll kill Hermione.

Thought 2: Professor Quirrell Memory-Charmed me and set up the scene that Dumbledore saw when he arrived.

Thought 3: Professor Quirrell can't do that, his magic can't touch mine. I saw that in Azkaban -

Thought 4: Can I trust those memories?

Thought 5: There was clearly some sort of debacle at Azkaban, we wouldn't have needed a rocket if Professor Quirrell hadn't fallen unconscious, and why'd he be unconscious if not -

Thought 6: Did I ever actually go to Azkaban at all?

Thought 7: I clearly practiced controlling Dementors at some point before I scared that Dementor in the Wizengamot. And that was in the newspapers.

Thought 8: Am I accurately remembering the newspapers?

"Um," Harry said again. "That spell seriously ought to be Unforgiveable. You think Professor Quirrell could have Memory-Charmed -"

"No. I went back through time and placed certain instruments to record Hermione's last battle, which I could not quite bear to watch in my own person." The old wizard looked very grim indeed. "Your guess was right, Harry Potter. Voldemort sabotaged everything we gave Hermione to protect her. Her broomstick lay dead in her hands. Her invisibility cloak did not conceal her. The troll walked in the sunlight unharmed; it was no stray creature, but a weapon pure and aimed. And it was indeed the troll who killed her, with strength alone, so that my wards and webs to detect hostile magics went for naught. The Defense Professor never crossed her path."

...

Under standard literary convention... the enemy wasn't supposed to look over what you'd done, sabotage the magic items you'd handed out, and then send out a troll rendered undetectable by some means the heroes couldn't figure out even after the fact, so that you might as well have not defended yourself at all. In a book, the point-of-view usually stayed on the main characters. Having the enemy just bypass all the protagonists' work, as a result of planning and actions taken out of literary sight, would be a diabolus ex machina, and dramatically unsatisfying.

No. No, you loving idiot. As you are busily demonstrating throughout this fanfic, it's VERY HARD to write to write a struggle between two powerfull and clever individuals, particularly if ~~you only recognize one type of intelligence as valid~~ they're both clever in the same way. You need to be highly talented and dedicated (spoiler alert - for all the posing Yud does, his Voldy is really just as utterly incompetent as the original)

Neville gets sent away to... ??? which is apparently more secure than Hogswarts for some reason?

quote:

"You? You ran right out after her. I'm the one who tried to stop you. It's my fault if it's anyone's," Neville said bitterly.

The empty air went silent at this for a while.

"Wow," the empty air finally said. "Wow. That puts a pretty different perspective on things, I have to say. I'm going to remember this the next time I feel an impulse to blame myself for something. Neville, the term in the literature for this is 'egocentric bias', it means that you experience everything about your own life but you don't get to experience everything else that happens in the world. There was way, way more going on than you running in front of me. You're going to spend weeks remembering that thing you did there for six seconds, I can tell, but nobody else is going to bother thinking about it. Other people spend a lot less time thinking about your past mistakes than you do, just because you're not the center of their worlds. I guarantee to you that nobody except you has even considered blaming Neville Longbottom for what happened to Hermione. Not for a fraction of a second. You are being, if you will pardon the phrase, a silly-dilly. Now shut up and say goodbye."

"I don't want to say goodbye," Neville said. His voice was trembling, but he managed not to cry. "I want to stay here and fight with you against - against whatever's happening."

# ? Jun 27, 2018 06:41

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

Thinking about security, why does the wizarding world even bother with physical locks when every twelve-year-old who paid attention in class for half an hour can unlock them? The only non-magical locks should be like those push buttons on a bathroom door that can be opened with a paperclip, where it's just to keep somebody from accidentally opening the door while you've got your pants down.

Edit: This is totally unrelated to Big Yud, it was just on my mind.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 06:51

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

Ahaha. Of course that's a thing. If your heroes have a bunch of bullshit powers and are determined to exploit them to the fullest, then you have to at least pretend their enemies will have some way to answer that - even though the basic ability not to trip and abra-kedabra all your allies was the only qualification for the "inner circle" in the cannon.

It's fairly reasonable, if you're going to give your protagonists powerful abilities, to give their antagonists ways of getting around them. The problem here is that these are the least creative and most stifling of potential methods. They're the sort of thing a child comes up with in a game of make-believe. "I shoot you with my freeze ray" "well I'm wearing freeze-proof armour". You can't just have the solution to every problem be "well they'd know about that possibility and just magically prevent it from working".

You've got four different tools here (three if you count apparating and portkeys as basically the same thing) but the solution to all of them is just "wards placed in advance". There's nothing interesting or clever about that so it doesn't make for a good story. It doesn't let the villains show off their cleverness and it doesn't give the protagonists a way to outmanoeuvre the villains, other than to say "i knew that you'd create wards so I prepared a counterspell", which is, again, not interesting or clever.

In both cases the solution comes before the problem and therefore involves no reaction or interaction. Instead of using a problem as a way to generate interesting plot and characterisation he's using it to prevent that from happening. He identified a potential plot hole (why don't they just teleport away if they get caught?) and instead of exploring the possibilities and implications of that he just wrote a quick and simple solution to close the hole. But if you're not going to do anything with it then there was no reason to bring it up in the first place, other than to prevent nitpickers from complaining about you not mentioning it.

Roadie posted:

Thinking about security, why does the wizarding world even bother with physical locks when every twelve-year-old who paid attention in class for half an hour can unlock them?

So, just like the real world then? Only it's a YouTube video instead of a class. Locks don't prevent people from getting into places, they just make it less convenient and put up a psychological barrier

# ? Jun 27, 2018 07:05

Roadie: Jun 30, 2013

Tiggum posted:

So, just like the real world then? Only it's a YouTube video instead of a class. Locks don't prevent people from getting into places, they just make it less convenient and put up a psychological barrier

This analogy would apply if muggles were universally taught lockpicking in grade school and all carried around lockpicking sets with them at all times, and also nobody bothered to even try to use locks that were hard to lockpick.

It's not that it's physically impossible, it's that literally nobody including the Ministry of Magic bothers to use something more secure than what they were themselves taught to magically open as teenagers.

Tiggum posted:

He identified a potential plot hole (why don't they just teleport away if they get caught?) and instead of exploring the possibilities and implications of that he just wrote a quick and simple solution to close the hole.

Even D&D did a more interesting version of this, in 2005.

Roadie fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jun 27, 2018

# ? Jun 27, 2018 07:08

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

90s Cringe Rock posted:

The medium post linked by this tweet has Kathy Forth's suicide note. It's extensive, and identifies a lot of issues in the rationalist/EA community while still being written by someone so deep in she couldn't see a way out. The twitter thread is also long and worth reading. There's some discussion of it in the dark enlightenment thread, and sneer club.

Wow. That note is a hall of a thing, and the crazy LW moon logic and biotruths are strong even in someone desperate to get away.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 07:56

Argue: Sep 29, 2005; I represent the Philippines

HP20 updated! After only 6 months this time! Author also says his goal is to get out one chapter a month for the time being. https://m.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/73/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20

# ? Jun 29, 2018 18:41

90s Cringe Rock: Nov 29, 2006

So did Strangers at Drakeshaugh. It's been a good day for not entirely trash Harry Potter fic.

# ? Jun 29, 2018 20:46

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

So that effortpost I made about Dumbledore�s Army and the Year of Darkness way back in the thread�s history suddenly became a lot more relevant, huh? :stare:

Goddamnit, fanfiction cults, why you gotta do this?

# ? Jun 29, 2018 21:05

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 95: Roles, Pt 6

quote:

On the edges of the permitted woods Harry walked, his feet never straying near the beaten path where he might be more easily found, never leaving sight of Hogwarts's windows. Harry had set the alarm upon his mechanical watch to tell him when it was lunchtime, since he couldn't actually look at his wrist, being invisible and all that. It raised the question of how his eyeglasses worked while he was wearing the Cloak. For that matter the Law of the Excluded Middle seemed to imply that either the rhodopsin complexes in his retina were absorbing photons and transducing them to neural spikes, or alternatively, those photons were going straight through his body and out the other side, but not both. It really did seem increasingly likely that invisibility cloaks let you see outward while being invisible yourself because, on some fundamental level, that was how the caster had - not wanted - but implicitly believed - that invisibility should work.

We've been going over this series for years now, so it's entirely possible I actually forgot some points that were raised (though I'm pretty sure I wouldn't forget a genuine definitive answer) - but for a series that ostensibly starts out with the notion of applying scientific principles to magic, it's amazing how little of that we get.

Harriezer absolutely refuses to trust or consult wizardly authorities AS definitive authorities on how magic works, for some goddamned reason. Yet he poses no viable alternative, his half-assed empirical investigations succeed only in disproving the hypothesis' he pulled directly from his rear end. A more self-aware series would use this to make a point about self-described self-taught geniuses who disregard established authorities and are actually charismatic enough to sucker people into thinking they have a point... only to utterly poo poo themselves when it comes to any results.

See the confusion in the paragraph above. Most of the way through the book, Harriezer still hasn't grasped the basic notion that magic doesn't have to abide by the laws of physics. And yet, he uses that confusion to jump right to a theory about how magic REALLY works and trumps the laws of physics, which also has 0 actual evidence, isn't based on scientific reasoning, and... is hella dumb.

...

Quirrel finds Harry under his cloak, and they have a conversation while Harriezer is invisible, because that's how you treat literally the only person you respect.

quote:

The most likely prospect for disaster is a powerful wizard who, for whatever reason, cannot bring himself to halt as warning signs appear. Though he may speak much and loudly of caution, he will not be able to bring himself actually to halt. I wonder, Mr. Potter, have you thought of trying anything which Hermione Granger herself would have told you not to do?"

"All right, point taken," said Harry. "Professor, I am well aware that if I save Hermione at the price of two other people's lives, I've lost on total points from a utilitarian standpoint. I am extremely aware that Hermione would not want me to risk destroying a whole country just to save her. That's just common sense."

And then they start talking about sheeple not actually searching for immortality nearly as hard as Yud would have liked:

quote:

"As you say, Mr. Potter. Certainly I myself would consider their lives pointless and without a shred of value. Perhaps, somewhere in their hidden hearts, they also believe that my opinion of them is the correct one."

Harry shook his head, and then, in annoyance, cast back the hood of his Cloak, and shook his head again. "That seems like a rather contrived view of the world, Professor," said the dim-lit head of a boy, floating unsupported on a circle of dark grass amid stars. "Trying to invent a resurrection spell just isn't something normal people would think of, so you can't deduce anything from their not taking the option."

quote:

"Such tales are also told among wizardkind. There is the story of the Elric brothers. The tale of Dora Kent, who was protected by her son Saul. There is Ronald Mallett and his doomed challenge to Time. In Sicily before its fall, the drama of Precia Testarossa. In Nippon they tell of Akemi Homura and her lost love. What these stories have in common, Mr. Potter, is that they are all fiction. Real-life wizards do not attempt the same, even though the notion is clearly not beyond their imagination."

So... anime, cranks, and outright terrible people. k.

quote:

The Defense Professor's voice rose in pitch. "If it were you who had been killed by that troll, it would not even occur to Hermione Granger to do as you are doing for her! It would not occur to Draco Malfoy, nor to Neville Longbottom, nor to McGonagall or any of your precious friends! There is not one person in this world who would return to you the care that you are showing her! So why? Why do it, Mr. Potter?" There was a strange, wild desperation in that voice. "Why be the only one in the world who goes to such lengths to keep up the pretense, when none of them will ever do the same for you?"

"I believe you are factually mistaken, Professor," Harry returned evenly. "About a number of things, in fact. At the very least, your model of my emotions is flawed. Because you don't understand me the tiniest bit, if you think that it would stop me if everything you said was true. Everything in the world has to start somewhere, every event that happens has to happen for a first time. Life on Earth had to start with some little self-replicating molecule in a pool of mud. And if I were the first person in the world, no -"

Harry's hand swept out, to indicate the terribly distant points of light.

"- if I were the first person in the universe who ever really cared about someone else, which I'm not by the way, then I'd be honored to be that person, and I'd try to do it justice."

Expertly crafted to be someone's signature. And to solicit donations to a cryonics facility.

# ? Jul 4, 2018 10:00

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Yudkowsky posted:

In Nippon

If someone wants to make the point that it's weird and dumb that we call countries different names in English to the names they use themselves, I agree. But saying "Nippon" instead of "Japan" when you're speaking English is even dumber. :rolleyes:

Edit: Especially when you just used the name Sicily instead of Sicilia.

Tiggum fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jul 4, 2018

# ? Jul 4, 2018 10:26

Deptfordx: Dec 23, 2013

Argue posted:

HP20 updated! After only 6 months this time! Author also says his goal is to get out one chapter a month for the time being. https://m.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/73/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20

Thanks for the heads up there.

# ? Jul 4, 2018 14:13

Cavelcade: Dec 9, 2015; I'm actually a boy!

Tiggum posted:

If someone wants to make the point that it's weird and dumb that we call countries different names in English to the names they use themselves, I agree. But saying "Nippon" instead of "Japan" when you're speaking English is even dumber.

Edit: Especially when you just used the name Sicily instead of Sicilia.

I wonder did anyone point that out to him and how he reacted?

# ? Jul 4, 2018 14:39

Dalris Othaine: Oct 14, 2013; I think, therefore I am inevitable.

Tiggum posted:

It's fairly reasonable, if you're going to give your protagonists powerful abilities, to give their antagonists ways of getting around them. The problem here is that these are the least creative and most stifling of potential methods. They're the sort of thing a child comes up with in a game of make-believe. "I shoot you with my freeze ray" "well I'm wearing freeze-proof armour". You can't just have the solution to every problem be "well they'd know about that possibility and just magically prevent it from working".

if you give frodo a lightsaber you have to give sauron the death star :goonsay:

# ? Jul 4, 2018 22:28

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

Under standard literary convention... the enemy wasn't supposed to look over what you'd done, sabotage the magic items you'd handed out, and then send out a troll rendered undetectable by some means the heroes couldn't figure out even after the fact, so that you might as well have not defended yourself at all. In a book, the point-of-view usually stayed on the main characters. Having the enemy just bypass all the protagonists' work, as a result of planning and actions taken out of literary sight, would be a diabolus ex machina, and dramatically unsatisfying.

I think this may just be the smartest thing that Yudkowsky has ever written in this turd of a story, because everything about this statement is perfectly correct and good writing advice.

He just forgot about thing: doing a bad writing thing intentionally doesn't make it not be bad writing.

quote:

It's fairly reasonable, if you're going to give your protagonists powerful abilities, to give their antagonists ways of getting around them. The problem here is that these are the least creative and most stifling of potential methods. They're the sort of thing a child comes up with in a game of make-believe. "I shoot you with my freeze ray" "well I'm wearing freeze-proof armour". You can't just have the solution to every problem be "well they'd know about that possibility and just magically prevent it from working".

As a general rule, the better solution to an overwhelming power or advantage on either the protagonist's or antagonist's side is to put them in a position where that power simply isn't applicable because it can't fix the problem they're facing. If the bad/good guy has a freeze ray, don't give them a problem that is immune to freezing but rather a situation where freezing someone or something wouldn't actually make a difference at all.

# ? Jul 5, 2018 23:54

Grace Baiting: Jul 20, 2012; Audi famam illius;
Cucurrit quaeque
Tetigit destruens.

Cardiovorax posted:

I think this may just be the smartest thing that Yudkowsky has ever written in this turd of a story, because everything about this statement is perfectly correct and good writing advice.

He just forgot about thing: doing a bad writing thing intentionally doesn't make it not be bad writing.

Well actually if you just 👏HANG👏A👏LAMPSHADE👏ON👏IT :tvtropes:

then your standard literary audience will definitely recognize your superior authorial intellect and therefore optimally min-maxed storycrafting. Honestly, it's like you're not even a self-proclaimed 140+ IQ internet MENSA member.

# ? Jul 6, 2018 00:28

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Grace Baiting posted:

Honestly, it's like you're not even a self-proclaimed 140+ IQ internet MENSA member.

Of course not.

I'm way overqualified for Mensa. :smuggo:

# ? Jul 6, 2018 01:09

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 96: Roles, Pt 7

quote:

For someone whose best friend had died yesterday, Harry Potter seemed strangely composed, though not in any way reminiscent of unfeelingness, or normality. I don't wish to talk about that, the boy had said, with you or anyone. Saying 'wish' and not 'want', as though to emphasize that he was able to use grownup words and make grownup decisions. There had been only one thing Remus Lupin had thought of that might help, after he'd received the owls from Professor McGonagall and that strange man Quirinus Quirrell.

...

Harry walked beside Mr. Lupin toward the black marble obelisk, thinking silently. It seemed to Harry that this adventure was essentially misguided; he had no use for grief counseling, that was not Harry's chosen path. So far as Harry was concerned, the five stages of grief were Rage, Remorse, Resolve, Research, and Resurrection. (Not that the usual 'five stages of grief' had any experimental evidence whatsoever that Harry had ever heard about.)

I mean... it's something that is commonly observed by professionals in the field. Unless you intend to kill a statistically significant number of spouses and family members... oh wait, that IS exactly what Yud would think. Carry on.

quote:

"When Lily and James died," Harry said, "did you think at all of whether there might be some magical way to get them back? Like Orpheus and Eurydice? Or the, what was it, Elrin brothers?"

"There is no magic which can undo death," Mr. Lupin said quietly. "There are some mysteries which wizardry cannot touch."

"Did you do a mental check of what you thought you knew, how you thought you knew it, and how high the probability was of that conclusion?"

"What?" said Mr. Lupin. "Could you repeat that, Harry?"

"I'm saying, did you think about it anyway?"

Mr. Lupin shook his head.

"Why not?"

"Because it was already done, and over," Remus Lupin said gently. "Because wherever James and Lily are now, they would wish me to act for the sake of the living, not the dead."

Harry nodded silently. He'd been pretty sure of the answer to that question before he'd asked. He'd already read that script. But he'd asked anyway, just in case Mr. Lupin had spent a week obsessing about it, because Harry could have been wrong.

quote:

"What is this?" Harry whispered. "Who... who wrote this? "

...

"Wrote what?" said Mr. Lupin, puzzled.

...

"This! " Harry cried. "The inscription! " There were tears welling up in Harry's eyes, at the brightness out of place and unexplained, the touch of grace where no grace should have been, the mysterious blessing, tears welling up at

THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH

"That?" Mr. Lupin said. "That's the... motto, I suppose you could call it, of the Potters. Though I don't think it was ever something as formal as that. Just a saying handed down from long, long ago..."

"This - that -" Harry scrambled down to kneel beside the grave, touched the inscription with a trembling hand. "How? Things like that can't just be, be genetic -"

Then Harry saw what tears had blurred, the faint carving of a line, within a circle, within a triangle.

The symbol of the Deathly Hallows.

And Harry understood.

"They tried," Harry whispered.

The three Peverell brothers.

....

"It doesn't mean resurrecting the dead, Harry," Mr. Lupin said. "It means accepting death, and so being beyond death, mastering it."

"Did James tell you that?" Harry said, his voice strange.

"No," said Mr. Lupin, "but -"

"Good."

So...

The Deathly Hallows are the loving worst. Just... the worst. And just like the house system, you'd imagine that any kind of thought or alteration of the basic concept would be an improvement. I mean, HPMOR did occasionally touch on the whole "is there a pre-determined narrative and should we follow it" question, and Dumby's entire dumbfuck "It's a QUEST" thing could fit well into that.

But... no. Somehow, even dumber than the original.

Edit - huh. that's all actually in the source material. HPMOR just twists the meaning of the sentence and ignores the context, because that's what rational people do. Huh.

quote:

"You know, Mr. Lupin," Harry said, "it really takes a baroque interpretation to think that somebody would be walking around, pondering how death is just something we all have to accept, and communicate their state of mind by saying, 'The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.' Maybe someone else thought it sounded poetic and picked up the phrase and tried to interpret it differently, but whoever said it first didn't like death much." Sometimes it puzzled Harry how most people didn't seem to even notice when they were twisting something around to the 180-degree opposite of its first obvious reading. It couldn't be a raw brainpower thing, people could see the obvious reading of most other English sentences. "Also 'shall be destroyed' refers to a change of future state, so it can't be about the way things are now."

Remus Lupin was staring at him with wide eyes. "You certainly are James and Lily's child," the man said, sounding rather shocked.

"Yes, I am," Harry said. But that wasn't enough, he had to do something more, so Harry raised his wand in the air and said, his voice as steady as he could make it, "I am Harry James Potter-Evans-Verres, the son of Lily and James, of the house of Potter, and I accept my family's quest. Death is my enemy, and I will defeat it."

Thrayen beyn Peverlas soona ahnd thrih heera toal thissoom Dath bey yewoonen.

"What?" Harry said aloud. The words had popped up into his stream of consciousness as though from his own thoughts, unexplained.

...

�regen b�on Pefearles suna and �rie hira t�l �issum D�a� b�o gewunen.

Three shall be Peverell's sons and three their devices by which Death shall be defeated.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 07:28

Tiggum: Oct 24, 2007; Your life and your quest end here.

Xander77 posted:

The Deathly Hallows are the loving worst. Just... the worst.

Why?

# ? Jul 11, 2018 07:56

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

They were a really bad plot device that made a bunch of characters extremely dumb retroactively, also the elder wand bullshit with Draco and Snape near the end was extremely bad.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 20:22

Old Kentucky Shark: May 25, 2012; If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.

Also, in what loving way is a Cloak of Invisiility death-aspected?

That's the kind of ham-fisted ret-cons you see DM's make near the burnt-out end of a D&D campaign.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 22:35

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Also, in what loving way is a Cloak of Invisiility death-aspected?

Let's you hide from death.Death can't see you to take your soul.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 22:54

Old Kentucky Shark: May 25, 2012; If you think you're gonna get sympathy from the shark, well then, you won't.

Yeah I read the books. That�s still super dumb.

# ? Jul 11, 2018 23:35

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Also, in what loving way is a Cloak of Invisiility death-aspected?

That's the kind of ham-fisted ret-cons you see DM's make near the burnt-out end of a D&D campaign.

i've always thought that the implication was that the death part was made up - they were just three powerful artifacts created by three brothers, one of whom was harry's ancestor and another who was voldemort's

reminder: yud has never read the actual books

# ? Jul 12, 2018 00:35

Added Space: Jul 13, 2012; Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!

The tale of the three brothers is a fairy tale about how to handle problems.

You could gain power to challenge your enemies - but power breeds conflict.

You could worry endlessly - but this will drive you to madness.

You could hide yourself away - but your problem will still be waiting for you.

Yud would point out that conflict is only a problem until you crush all your enemies.

# ? Jul 12, 2018 00:57

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

The Shortest Path posted:

They were a really bad plot device that made a bunch of characters extremely dumb retroactively, also the elder wand bullshit with Draco and Snape near the end was extremely bad.

also while she was retroactively making things into Big Important Magical Artifacts, it would have been super loving easy to come up with a 'one horcrux introduced per book' structure

# ? Jul 12, 2018 02:03

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

Tunicate posted:

also while she was retroactively making things into Big Important Magical Artifacts, it would have been super loving easy to come up with a 'one horcrux introduced per book' structure

tho

# ? Jul 12, 2018 16:56

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Yeah I read the books. That�s still super dumb.

It makes perfect sense as the plot device to a fairy tale, which is what the early Harry Potter books did their best to emulate, at least in mood if not in general plot structure. The entire feel of "being whisked away to a strange and mystical world" isn't that different in presentation to what you might in folklore tale about the Little People. In a classical German fairy tale like that of Grandfather Death, it would make perfect sense to have a magical device that can hide you from Death, or the Devil even. In that story, Death gave a magical herb to his godson that can save even those condemned to die by fate itself.

The problem isn't that it's dumb, it's that it doesn't really fit into hackneyed "mature" tone the later books ended up aiming for. It has been over a decade since I read the last book, but the thing that I remember the most is that they ultimately didn't actually end up mattering a whole lot, for all that the book was titled after them.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:00

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

Chapter 97: Roles, Pt 8

quote:

The debtor's meeting which Lord Malfoy had demanded from Harry Potter, who owed Lucius Malfoy a debt of some 58,203 Galleons, was held within the Gringotts Central Bank, in accordance with the laws of Britain.

...

Lord Voldemort had killed goblins as well as wizards - an incredibly stupid move on Lord Voldemort's part, unless Harry was really missing something - but what goblins thought of the Boy-Who-Lived, Harry had no idea. Goblins had a reputation for paying what they owed and taking what they thought owed them, along with a reputation for interpreting those accounts in a somewhat prejudiced fashion.

Harriezer briefly contemplates recruiting Goblin help for his totallygoingtohappen revolution. Potentially interesting plot thread that's introduced and dropped with no development n+1.

quote:

"Do not sign anything that Lucius Malfoy gives you," Mad-Eye Moody said. "Nothing, do you understand me, lad? If Malfoy hands you a copy of The Wonderful Adventures of the Boy-Who-Lived and asks you for an autograph, tell him that you've sprained a finger. Don't pick up a quill for a single second while you're in Gringotts. If someone hands you a quill, break the quill and then break your own fingers. Do I need to explain further, son?"

"Not particularly," Harry said. "We also have lawyers in Muggle Britain, and they'd think your lawyers are cute."

I mean... we've seen school disciplinary actions, we've seen star chambers and kangaroo courts... have we seen how wizard law operates under "normal" circumstances?

For Yud, of course, anything he doesn't know must be incredibly simple to master. Harriezer has actually drawn up a contract he will share with Luscious after spending a few hours in the school library.

quote:

Lucius Malfoy spoke first, his voice level, his face set. "I do not understand what is happening at Hogwarts, Harry Potter. Would you care to explain it to me?"

"I don't know," Harry said. "If I understood these events I would not have let them happen, Lord Malfoy."

"Then answer me this question. Who are you?"

Harry gazed evenly at the face of his creditor. "I'm not You-Know-Who, like you thought I was," Harry said. Not being a complete idiot, he'd eventually worked out who Lucius Malfoy had thought he was talking to in front of the Wizengamot. "Obviously I'm not a normal boy. Equally obviously, that probably has something to do with the Boy-Who-Lived business. But I don't know what, or why, any more than you do. I asked the Sorting Hat and it didn't know either."

...

"So you would have me believe," Lucius Malfoy said in a thin voice, "that you are claiming to be mad. Well, let us leave all that aside. Tell me who set that troll on Hogwarts."

"I don't know," Harry said.

"Tell me who you suspect, Harry Potter."

"I have four suspects. One of them is Professor Snape -"

"Snape? " Draco burst out.

"The second, of course, is the Defense Professor of Hogwarts, just because he's the Defense Professor." Harry would have left him out, not wanting to bring Professor Quirrell to the Malfoys' attention if he was innocent, but Draco might have called him on that. "The third, you wouldn't believe me about. The fourth is a catchall category called Everything Else." And the fifth, Lord Voldemort, I do not think I should name to you.

Lucius Malfoy's face contorted in a snarl. "Do you think I cannot recognize bait upon your hook? Tell me about this third possibility, Potter, the one you wish me to believe is the true answer, and leave aside games."

Harry regarded Lord Malfoy steadily. "I once read a book I wasn't supposed to read, and it told me this: Communication is an event that takes place between equals. Employees lie to their bosses, who, in turn, expect to be lied to. I'm not playing coy, I'm observing that it's simply not possible, in our present situation, for me to tell you about the third suspect, and have you believe that my story was anything but a lure."

The turgid and terrible dialogue really hasn't improved at all from the moment Draco and Harriezer met. Why improve on what you a-priori know to be perfect.

quote:

It's called justice, Lord Malfoy. You cannot possibly expect me to cooperate with you while you are holding the wealth of House Potter under what you now know to be false pretenses. I understand how it looked to you at the time, but you know better now."

"You have nothing to offer me worth a hundred thousand Galleons."

"Don't I?" Harry said distantly. "I wonder. I think it quite probable that you care more about the long-term welfare of House Malfoy than about whichever political issue the last generation's failed Dark Lord made his personal hobbyhorse." Harry glanced significantly at Draco. "The next generation is drawing its own battle lines and forming new alliances. Your son can be frozen out of that, or he can go straight to the top. Is that worth more to you than forty thousand Galleons you weren't particularly expecting and don't particularly need?" Harry smiled thinly. "Forty thousand Galleons. Two million Muggle pounds sterling. Your son knows some things about the size of the Muggle economy that might surprise you. They'd find it amusing, that the fate of a country was revolving around two million pounds sterling. They'd think it was cute. And I think much the same, Lord Malfoy. This isn't about me being desperate. This is about you getting a fair chance to be fair."

"Oh?" said Lord Malfoy. "And if I refuse your fair chance, what then?"

Harry shrugged. "Depends what sort of coalition government gets put together without the Malfoys. If the government can be reformed peacefully and it would disturb the peace to do otherwise, I'll pay you the money out of petty cash. Or maybe the Death Eaters will be retried for past crimes and executed as a matter of justice, as a result of due legal process, of course."

"You truly are mad," Lucius Malfoy said quietly. "You have no power, no wealth, and yet you say such things to me."

"Yes, it's silly to think I could scare you. After all, you're not a Dementor."

That's borderline effective. And then Harriezer considers all the way he could assassinate people with scientific knowledge and loving transfiguration, because we're still in HPmor.

Imagine for a second a (Roger Zelazny's) Amber fic written by Yud. I mean, his "I know you know I know" conversations are already kinda like particularly heavy-handed versions of the oblique threats and interrogations the Amberites are so fond of, only with all the subtlety removed. But at the end of every conversation you'd have a lengthy screed about what the author imagines could be done with shadow powers - going into a shadow with a far faster time flow, raising an army of elite ninja assassins, and god-demons that respond only to your command.

Oh man, Merlin is actually Harriezer. But slightly less douchebagy.

quote:

Harry hesitated, then said evenly, "My third suspect is Albus Dumbledore."

The tapping pen stilled on the parchment. "A strange allegation," Lucius drawled. "Dumbledore lost much face when a Hogwarts student died within his tenure. Do you suppose that I will believe anything of him, only because he is my enemy?"

"He is one suspect among several, Lord Malfoy, and not necessarily the most plausible. But the reason I was able to kill a full-grown mountain troll was that I had a weapon which Dumbledore gave to me, at the start of the school year. It's not strong evidence, but it's suspicious. "

...

Put that way, it did seem increasingly like a Transfigured rock was an optimal weapon only against a flesh-and-blood magical creature with spell-resistant skin. "But... I mean, it might not have been intended as a weapon at all, I used it in a strange way, it could have just been a crazy whim -"

"No," Lucius Malfoy said lowly. "Not a whim. Not coincidence. Not Dumbledore."

...

Draco nodded thoughtfully. "Maybe Dumbledore thought you'd stop the troll before it got Granger and then he could blame Father for sending it. A lot of people would be very angry if they thought Father had even tried to do something like that, in Hogwarts. Like Father said, Dumbledore must've lost face when people found out that a student had actually died in Hogwarts, being safe is what Hogwarts is famous for. So that part probably wasn't supposed to happen."

Harry's mind involuntarily flashed back to the horror in Dumbledore's eyes when he'd seen Hermione Granger's body.

Would I have gotten there in time, if the Weasley twins hadn't had their magic map stolen? Could that have been the plan? And then, though Dumbledore didn't know it, somebody stole their map, and I was too late... but no, that doesn't make much sense, I found out too late, how could Dumbledore have guessed that I'd use a broomstick... well, he did know I had one...

There was no way a plan like that could work.

And it hadn't.

But someone going a little bit senile might expect it to work, and a phoenix might not know the difference.

I'm willing to extend Yud the benefit of doubt, and assume this is an intentional callback to the whole "sheeple will find any excuse no to think someone with a phoenix on his shoulder is automatically good" conversation.

Anyways, if Harriezer can find evidence on Dumby, house Malfoy will do anything for him. And the sad thing is that in the HPMOR universe, that means something.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jul 30, 2018

# ? Jul 16, 2018 09:01

Cardiovorax: Jun 5, 2011; I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

"Forty thousand Galleons. Two million Muggle pounds sterling. Your son knows some things about the size of the Muggle economy that might surprise you. They'd find it amusing, that the fate of a country was revolving around two million pounds sterling. They'd think it was cute. And I think much the same, Lord Malfoy.

Hasn't Yudkowsky been making a point, over and over, of stating that the magical economy is pretty much completely discoupled from the regular economy and there's basically no relationship at all between the posted exchange value of a Galleon and its actual buying power?

# ? Jul 16, 2018 20:32

Pvt.Scott: Feb 16, 2007; What God wants, God gets, God help us all

The wizard economy is literally magical, tho

# ? Jul 16, 2018 22:24

Mazerunner: Apr 22, 2010; Good Hunter, what... what is this post?

In other fanfic news, Arithmancer/Lady Archimedes wrapped up recently.

I could go on about stuff, but my short review is: really loved Arithmancer, really disliked LA

# ? Jul 20, 2018 04:40

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

I liked White Squirrel's stuff for a while but the "I'm smarter than everyone else and also muggle science and math are The Best Things Ever" bits got really grating after the first couple years of The Arithmancer.

There's also just something about the tone of the writing that feels incredibly condescending and I'm not sure how to put a point on it.

# ? Jul 20, 2018 04:51

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# ? May 17, 2024 14:22

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Mazerunner posted:

In other fanfic news, Arithmancer/Lady Archimedes wrapped up recently.

I could go on about stuff, but my short review is: really loved Arithmancer, really disliked LA

the original books have the same issue, it's a fundamental problem with the harry potter narrative structure because it all has to culminate in teenagers killing a resurrected warlock who has lived five times as long as they have, with powers beyond those of other men, who has hidden his heart within a jar, etc. which is fundamentally implausible within the established rules of the world and causes the narrative to contort further and further as it closes in on the end

i enjoyed LA as a better version of the story than the originals but it's still a bad skeleton for a story no matter how you flesh it out

# ? Jul 20, 2018 05:03

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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