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Suspicious Dish posted:can someone quickly explain to me what 7nm, Euv, Intel's processes, etc. are so I can be up to speed here? I'm an idiot software guy who doesn't know much about silicon 7 nautical miles and extremely under-valued
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Jul 4, 2018 08:02
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what a lovely snipe anyway 7nm supposedly refers to the size of the smallest feature you can create on a chip, so a "7nm" process can create features (like a wire or a piece of transistor or w/e) as small as 7nm wide. it sounds like the term has decoupled from meaning that now though and is a marketing thing instead so who knows anymore. EUV is extreme-ultraviolet, the range of UV light that stretches from just over 100nm to 10nm in wavelength. having a smaller wavelength of light means you can make smaller features, but EUV is super tricky to deal with since it's basically soft x-rays and likes to ionize stuff and not behave like normal light idk the specifics behind intel's process but it sounds like they can get similar performance out of their "10nm" process as other vendors claim to get out of their "7nm", but their 10nm production line is still working out the kinks and probably won't be fully operational until next year. e: to be clear afaik nobody's using EUV yet in production because nobody's been able to do it on an industrial scale despite years of work, but it's expected that getting any smaller than the state of the art now will require it (or something else like the electron beam etching someone mentioned) sooner or later, and probably sooner Shame Boy fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 08:09
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it's fun to think about because a single atom of silicon is ~0.2nm so we're already at the point where creating these chips has to be done to a precision of plus or minus tens of atoms
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Jul 4, 2018 08:21
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ate all the Oreos posted:it's fun to think about because a single atom of silicon is ~0.2nm so we're already at the point where creating these chips has to be done to a precision of plus or minus tens of atoms isn't there a fairly hard limit on how small we can shrink this stuff because below a certain size quantum effects start to gently caress things up?
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Jul 4, 2018 08:35
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goddamnedtwisto posted:isn't there a fairly hard limit on how small we can shrink this stuff because below a certain size quantum effects start to gently caress things up? quantum poo poo loving poo poo up started like 30 years ago tunnelling in specific has only become a huge problem recently, sure bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 09:11
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but other vendors have 7nm processes which are equivalent to Intel's 10nm today? ones that don't require Euv?
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Jul 4, 2018 09:22
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Suspicious Dish posted:but other vendors have 7nm processes which are equivalent to Intel's 10nm today? ones that don't require Euv? yeah. they are coming out later this year, whereas intel's 10nm has been delayed to sometime next year.
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Jul 4, 2018 10:49
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ok not sure why people were saying that other 7nm processes would require euv then
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Jul 4, 2018 12:14
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because intel's 7nm is likely to be euv. basically the upcoming die shrinks are likely the lasts ones to use 193nm photolithography. if this die shrink has been really late for intel, then the next one will be extra late.
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Jul 4, 2018 12:53
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goddamnedtwisto posted:isn't there a fairly hard limit on how small we can shrink this stuff because below a certain size quantum effects start to gently caress things up? please stop asking questions about my weiner
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Jul 4, 2018 13:02
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Suspicious Dish posted:ok not sure why people were saying that other 7nm processes would require euv then because as someone else pointed out above what other companies are calling "7nm" really isn't what would be called the 7nm process node. basically _nm used to refer to the width of the transistor gate across the silicon making up the active region of the transistor despite features in a chip often being smaller than that (when I worked a ~51nm part had several deep contacts which were only 25-30nm wide at the bottom). with the introduction of the finfet (where the gate goes up and over a fin of silicon) gate width was no longer an easy consistent measurement and every company came up with what they deemed an equivalent way to measure density and went with that. but for companies building chips for others like TSMC there is intense pressure to be the smallest and pretty much everyone but intel went with measures which are at the very edge of credibility. it's a bit like how Tesla claims a particular model of their car has something like 800hp by adding together the horsepower of the front and rear drive motors despite the assembled car lacking the ability to drive both motors at peak horsepower simultaneously.
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Jul 4, 2018 13:53
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intel does what tsmcan't
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Jul 4, 2018 14:17
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Suspicious Dish posted:ok not sure why people were saying that other 7nm processes would require euv then because the foundries have claimed they will use euv for some layers at the 7nm node. it’s from their own announcements, though recently they seem to be delaying it and saying they’ll initially have larger transistors on “7nm” or an intermediary “8nm” using 193i quad patterning, with euv coming later for the “real 7nm” or a “7nm+” node. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process quote:TSMC plans to introduce a second improved process called 7nm+ a year later which will introduce some layers processed with EUVL quote:Samsung will use EUVL for their 7nm node and thus will be the first to introduce this new technology after more than a decade of development. On May 24 2017, Samsung released a press release of their updated roadmap. Due to delays in the introduction of EUVL, Samsung will introduce a new process called 8nm
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Jul 4, 2018 16:26
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not every layer has super small feature sizes, so not all of them would require double/quad patterning or euv. if features are too small and next to each other, interference fringes / diffraction from the 193nm light can ruin nearby features. here is a good illustration if double patterning  quad patterning works in a similar way, but requires you use 4 photolithography steps, which increases risk of misprocess and decreases throughput even more than double patterning. these techniques require not only extra photolithography steps, but also deposition and (eventually) removal of a bunch of sacrificial layers that eat up fab capacity at etch and deposition steps, so multiple patterning really adds up in terms of slowing a fab down. it is the desire to move away from this that motivates the transition to euv.
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Jul 4, 2018 16:44
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C.H.O.M.E. posted:not every layer has super small feature sizes, so not all of them would require double/quad patterning or euv. as someone who was in charge of overlay/layer-alignment metrology I am so loving glad I got out before my equipment had to deal with that bullshit. fun tidbit for those that like such things: it is possible to measure misalignment between two layers to sub-nanometer precision using an optical microscope operating using visible light Shifty Pony fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jul 4, 2018 |
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Jul 4, 2018 17:15
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Jabor posted:how many times does it take before cities figure out that the promise of "lots of shiny tech jobs" just means lots of techies moving in and pushing up rents, and the people actually living there aren't going to see a dime? also the gigafactory is, uh, a factory, not a "tech job", and also it's supposed to be like 99% automated with one guy with an ipad walking around checking displays infernal machines posted:how about the "your brakes may not actually work initially, on account of we skipped the finishing step to wear off all the poo poo on the pads and mate them properly to the rotors" part? it is literally unbelievable that they aren't bedding in the brakes. can't wait for that first test drive "whooooo look at how fast this thing accelerates! well, time to stop" and you only have 20% of braking force available infernal machines posted:what if we treated manufacturing like google treats code? FOR SALE: 2018 tesla model 3 v0.9.2.4921 (build 2de651ac) i know what i have, this is the one you want, with the extra spot welds and superior early-model upper control arms! no lowballers infernal machines posted:i love that they have time for monkey cheese bullshit but not preventing the lane assist and cruise control from accelerating into stationary objects they have already given up on the autopilot hth lomarf i'd never seen the internal mechanism for the door handles. that's like an order of magnitude worse than i was expecting. gear motors? microswitches on both sides? unsealed circuit boards? holky gently caress note that there is no mechanical connection to the door latch at all. you press it in and a switch detects that you pressed it and pushes the handle out, and then you pull it and another switch electronically pops the latch. this entire loving mechanism could be replaced with an undercut in the sheet metal (you don't want sticky-outy handles for drag reduction, i get it) and a solid-state touch sensor. but that wouldn't give you a brief nerdgasm when you walk up to your car and the door handles pop out now, would it. holy poo poo. it's like a loving movie prop
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Jul 4, 2018 18:37
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Sagebrush posted:also the gigafactory is, uh, a factory, not a "tech job", and also it's supposed to be like 99% automated with one guy with an ipad walking around checking displays
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Jul 4, 2018 18:44
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lol that door handle is ridiculous. the whole car is built that way it seems, every piece being a comedy of errors
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Jul 4, 2018 18:50
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having worked at chip fabs, id say a factory has mostly tech jobs these days. you aren’t writing a fart app but you probably have a large factory automation dept, insanely large and fast databases for collecting data monitored during manufacturing steps, and a bunch of engineers. you also have maintenance techs and maybe some assemblers who are doing less highly skilled work, but most of it is engineering, programming, and IT.
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Jul 4, 2018 18:52
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one of the biggest advantages electric cars have over internal combustion is that they possess far fewer systems and moving parts and should therefore be much easier and simpler and cheaper to build, which should give tesla a huge comparative advantage over the fords and toyotas of the world that is, so long as they dont find brand new ways to make other parts of the car unnecessarily complicated and difficult and expensive to manufacture and prone to failure elon, you dumb rear end in a top hat
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Jul 4, 2018 18:56
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i suppose that means they ought to break down less frequently too.
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Jul 4, 2018 18:57
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FMguru posted:data centers are another good example. watching hick communities starve their schools and roads in order to land a billion-dollar facility that ends up providing only a handful of jobs is always funny Data Centers are warehouses and the weird ones to me because they're these massive buildings that look impressive but at the end of the day they're still filled with machines or inventory and only employ like a couple dozen people tops.
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Jul 4, 2018 18:58
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C.H.O.M.E. posted:having worked at chip fabs, id say a factory has mostly tech jobs these days. you aren’t writing a fart app but you probably have a large factory automation dept, insanely large and fast databases for collecting data monitored during manufacturing steps, and a bunch of engineers. you also have maintenance techs and maybe some assemblers who are doing less highly skilled work, but most of it is engineering, programming, and IT. "having worked at literally the highest technology manufacturing systems on the entire planet, i think that most factory workers are techies," he said. "i mean, who's going to run the ion implanters?" like yes factories are highly automated these days but a chip fab is more like a physics lab inside an operating theater and the gigafactory is a glorified cannery
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Jul 4, 2018 19:00
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Sagebrush posted:gigafactory is a glorified cannery who’s the upton sinclair of our day? we need to get them in there.
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Jul 4, 2018 19:02
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FMguru posted:one of the biggest advantages electric cars have over internal combustion is that they possess far fewer systems and moving parts and should therefore be much easier and simpler and cheaper to build, which should give tesla a huge comparative advantage over the fords and toyotas of the world i take a cab to work every day and i usually end up with this guy driving a prius and we just cartalk always i love the midwestern guy he seriously wants to have his cab company trade up to muskrats but he would never own one, he prefers his F350
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Jul 4, 2018 19:21
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FCKGW posted:Data Centers are warehouses and the weird ones to me because they're these massive buildings that look impressive but at the end of the day they're still filled with machines or inventory and only employ like a couple dozen people tops. i think part of the disconnect is that the number of people needed to build either of them is far larger than the number of people needed to operate them, and i wouldn't be surprised to learn that the pitches include construction in their "number of jobs created" propaganda figures.
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Jul 4, 2018 19:23
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bob dobbs is dead posted:quantum poo poo loving poo poo up started like 30 years ago I’d like to know more about this.
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Jul 4, 2018 19:26
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Midjack posted:i think part of the disconnect is that the number of people needed to build either of them is far larger than the number of people needed to operate them, and i wouldn't be surprised to learn that the pitches include construction in their "number of jobs created" propaganda figures. correct, see the keystone xl job projections, something like 3000 short term construction jobs, 30 permanent jobs
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Jul 4, 2018 19:34
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my understanding is that data centers are pretty ok, actually. they have fairly low permanent staffing needs but they also create a fairly reliable stream of contract work for e.g. hvac and electrical support, and they draw a steady flow of visitors and shipping and so on. also they tend to be in towns where a few dozen steady jobs is a pretty big deal. doesn’t really excuse the corporate welfare, especially not at nevada/tesla levels, but i can understand why you might put effort into luring one also all construction jobs are short-term
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Jul 4, 2018 19:57
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rjmccall posted:also all construction jobs are short-term 
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Jul 4, 2018 20:03
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hahaha
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Jul 4, 2018 20:09
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lmao
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Jul 4, 2018 20:15
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Jul 4, 2018 20:24
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XD also 
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Jul 4, 2018 20:27
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rjmccall posted:my understanding is that data centers are pretty ok, actually. they have fairly low permanent staffing needs but they also create a fairly reliable stream of contract work for e.g. hvac and electrical support, and they draw a steady flow of visitors and shipping and so on. also they tend to be in towns where a few dozen steady jobs is a pretty big deal. doesn’t really excuse the corporate welfare, especially not at nevada/tesla levels, but i can understand why you might put effort into luring one In my area of the Inland Empire just outside of LA, we've become the warehouse capital of the US. They're planning on building the largest warehouse complex in the world here soon quote:The World Logistics Center, planned by a company called Highland Fairview, would be the largest such facility in the country, covering 2,610 acres—the size of 700 football fields. It would be more than 25 times bigger than the largest warehouse in the United States, a 98-acre hangar operated in Washington by the airplane manufacturer Boeing. There's a lot of opposition because it would being a ton of diesel traffic to already one of the worst area for air quality in the entire US But the worst part is that they built a huge Sketchers warehouse a number of years ago at the prototype of this type of complex would be feasable, whether the travel time and location would work for port traffic and distribution. The opening of this warehouse resulted in a net loss of 400 jobs as they shutter all the small warehouses into this giant complex. quote:Skechers’ massive distribution center in Moreno Valley was supposed to provide a refreshing boost to the job market in a city that badly needed one. Warehouses suck.
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Jul 4, 2018 21:51
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lol
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Jul 4, 2018 21:53
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a good way to murder a small town's businesses are to put a walmart in a good way to murder a small town's population is to put a walmart distribution center in
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Jul 4, 2018 21:57
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Shifty Pony posted:as someone who was in charge of overlay/layer-alignment metrology I am so loving glad I got out before my equipment had to deal with that bullshit. got any hot tips on how i can align the front and the back masks of my homemade circuit boards? i always think i have them aligned and they come out half a mm apart or more 
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Jul 4, 2018 22:33
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Sagebrush posted:also the gigafactory is, uh, a factory, not a "tech job", and also it's supposed to be like 99% automated with one guy with an ipad walking around checking displays im the door handle firmware that has to be programmed for your car
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Jul 4, 2018 22:48
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muckswirler posted:XD 
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