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I have a few years of work experience now and earlier this year I decided to move to a new country to take on a new role (same function, different industry). I decided to take a paycut since cost of living is cheaper in that country and I also took on a temp contract / internship position that is usually meant for new graduates. I felt that since I needed to be sponsored for a visa, I would try and perform well within that contract period and hope that I would be put into a more full time and permanent position after the contract was over. Well half way through my contract period, I was offered a promotion since I was doing so well. However, this new promotion / position is just the normal next stage from the internship. I already have a few years experience and I feel that I have the leverage to at least negotiate a better pay, if not a better position. How should I go about this? I've never negotiated a job offer before so I am definitely a little intimidated. I can already sense that my boss is going to tell me no and that its not possible to make a jump from an internship position to that position.
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Jun 27, 2018 08:05
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Your BATNA is refusing the promotion and remaining in your current role. Theirs is shrugging and offering it to someone else. Unless you’re actually fine with staying at status quo, you have no leverage and they have you by the metaphorical balls. To be sure I have this right, this promotion to Intern First Class DOES come with a pay bump and you’re just asking if you can maybe get a bigger pay bump, right?
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Jun 27, 2018 12:22
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Regarding my BATNA, either what you mentioned or moving to a new role with a new company. I work in a very small team that consists of just my boss and I. They do not have any other person to offer it to unless they put up a job listing. I don't see how I do not have leverage here. I've performed exceptionally well and I get along with my boss and everyone we work with. In addition, on paper, I am fairly overqualified for this position. If it was not for my desire to move to this new country and to take on this internship role, I am positive I could have applied to a more senior position and have been hired - but that position was not available. This promotion from Intern to the next role does come with a pay bump and a better title and yes, I am asking if I can receive a bigger pay bump.
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Jun 27, 2018 13:57
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Except that none of that matters really?quote:Your BATNA is refusing the promotion and remaining in your current role. Theirs is shrugging and offering it to someone else. edit: you should absolutely ask for more money though
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Jun 27, 2018 14:02
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All of that matters only if you’re actually willing to say “I require $X a year or I decline this role” and then follow through with it if they refuse. And if you do that then you’ll need fo find a new employer lickety split because they will begin searching for your replacement that very day.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:13
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Ask for the higher position and better pay. If you don’t get it you suck it up and accept what you get. If you’re still unhappy, stay in your job while you look for a new one. There’s nothing complicated about this situation.
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Jun 27, 2018 14:33
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other than the dude recognizing that his BATNA is not as good as he thinks it is if you have a weak BATNA that just means you have to realistically expect to capitulate in negotiations is the company sponsoring your residence in your new country in any way?
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Jun 27, 2018 14:54
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Ghostnuke posted:Except that none of that matters really? Why does none of that matter? My position is something that is not easily replaceable and even now we are trying to hire someone in another office and have been having difficulties for the last few months. What difference is there in negotiating a new job offer for a new company vs negotiating a promotion with a pay raise? I feel like the latter will have more leverage since that employee has been with the company for X months / years and would be more of an impact if he or she left. Also, this country has strong workers right where it's normal to require a notice period of a minimum of 1 month, if not 3 months, to either quit or be fired. It's not as easy as back in the states in finding a replacement, especially in this industry and country. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:is the company sponsoring your residence in your new country in any way? No, not as of now.
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Jun 27, 2018 18:56
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Busy Bee posted:Why does none of that matter? My position is something that is not easily replaceable and even now we are trying to hire someone in another office and have been having difficulties for the last few months. What difference is there in negotiating a new job offer for a new company vs negotiating a promotion with a pay raise? I feel like the latter will have more leverage since that employee has been with the company for X months / years and would be more of an impact if he or she left. Start interviewing now if you want your pay to go up significantly. It's not optional if you want to have a Responsible Grownup Career. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jun 27, 2018 |
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Jun 27, 2018 19:07
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your BATNA sucks because if the company tells you to pound sand here are your choices: 1. suck it up, start looking maybe if you're super mad. in a high-friction market with long notice periods you will be working for this company for some time still 2. quit immediately what are you gonna do, boss?
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Jun 27, 2018 20:03
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Got it, thank you all for the reality check and putting it into perspective.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:08
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Yeah, to be clear I am not saying don't ask. You should ask! You should ask for the moon and a loving unicorn and ten weeks paid leave per year. Just be very, very aware that your employer is unlikely to give you what you ask for even if you think it's reasonable, because your BATNA is to quit, and you should (almost) never quit without a real plan in place.
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Jun 27, 2018 20:13
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I am going for a new job right now (my current one is OK, but I want more money and a slightly different role). I've made the second and final round, but the hiring manager is coming back through the recruiter asking for current compensation. Thanks to the OP for giving a bunch of reasons why that's a bad idea and a bunch of ways to politely deflect/refuse to answer. I answered last job and regretted it afterwards once I realised that of course they want to know that so they can wind down their offer to current + token%. Not this time! You guys have the position and a budget -- you make an offer!
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Jun 29, 2018 10:54
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Hello BFC! Recently I accepted a promotion at a mid sized (mid 8 figures a year) aerospace manufacturing firm to a position where I am responsible for purchasing and coordinating all of the outside processing services we subcontract to other vendors. I moved from a role where I primarily wrote the purchase orders for these services and inspected parts in my spare time to a role where quoting, planning, creating purchase orders, expediting orders, hounding suppliers for our parts, evaluating suppliers, creating metrics and reports, etc. is now solely my responsibility. I write probably $300k/month worth of purchase orders to give you a rough example of the size of my operation. I am excited for the new opportunities and ability to fix many of the systemic issues that have plagued our company for as long as I've worked here (no one quotes heat treat and processing before they bid on a project, we have no supplier evaluation framework at all) but there's one small problem. I'm only making $42k a year, and that was an absolute struggle to get over working here for 9 years. My recent wage negotiations went like this: June 2016: 33k/year. Submitted an offer/desire to be making 42k by the end of 2017, or two evaluation and raise periods per the company handbook. Get 3%, the supposed maximum all employees received due to company capital outlays. Get a bunch of bullshit from department head that next year will be better and there's a lot of opportunities coming up, company is expanding, etc. and if I stick it out things will be better next year. October 2017: Yearly reviews go by in May/June without any mention of raises for anyone. Rumors abound that the founder of the company is selling out. I submit a resignation letter to management unless they agree to a raise to 42k/year because my (and everyone else's) workload had increased by 50% or so over the last year with no increase in staffing. They counter with a raise to 37k with another look in 90 days. I accept. November 2017: Sale of a majority of the company to a private equity firm is made public/official. Plans to aggressively expand the company and reorganize the management structure over the near future are announced. More inspectors are hired to bring staffing levels up to a minimally acceptable level. March 2018: 90 Day period comes and goes, no mention of any wage increases. Plans of reorganizing the company's management structure begin to filter down. I get told unofficially that I need to make a choice between staying in Quality Assurance and moving to a role in the newly formed Production Control department. Many things are said about giving people new titles based on their job roles and adjusting wage scales to be competitive with industry standards. May 2018: Yearly reviews are given, I, as usual get a typically stellar review. I am officially offered a position (Outside Processing Coordinator) in production control with the job duties I've talked about above. The offer comes with a raise to 42k/year "for now". I accept. Notices go out that raises from our yearly performance reviews will be given out at the end of 2Q. May/June 2018: I begin to assume all the new duties my role has been assigned. The scope of my responsibilities and the depth of the issues to be solved becomes clear. Every single decision related to outside processing I either make, or sign off on someone else making. I realize that I'm going to have to basically build everything from the ground up. The backlog of work that we've bid on, from different manufacturers than the vast majority of our current work (e.g helicopters and military projects) is revealed. End of June 2018: Raises are officially announced and distributed. There's widespread anger because despite the promises, 3% again is the maximum anyone got. I receive no notice of any performance raise. On Friday I asked my new supervisor, the head of the newly formed Production Control department what the deal was. She tells me that I was not eligible for any raise this year due to the fact that I received one when I accepted my promotion. I point out that that fact was not stated to me, she expresses her regret but states that my current pay is the maximum management was willing to pay me, despite the fact that the equivalent positions in the company that purchase raw material and complete parts make significantly more money and that roles at other companies with equivalent responsibilities in my industry/area seem to pay at least 10k/year more than what I make now. I express my extreme dissatisfaction in the most diplomatic terms I can think of, she tells me the only real thing I can do is to go to her boss but that she was doubtful anything could or would be done. I guess my questions are threefold. Am I being delusional? The labor market is as tight as it's been in my adult life, but I'm 31 and I don't have a college degree. I have a lot of job experience in a lot of different aspects of manufacturing as I've worked my way up to where I am now but I don't have any certifications or "official" training to point to. This is as much money as I've ever made in my life and I've gotten a ~20% raise over the last calendar year. With overtime I'm probably going to gross 55k this year. It seems pretty clear to me at this point that the company wants to use the fact that I've been underpaid in the past to continue to underpay me in the future, no matter how my responsibilities increase. Number two is, is my salary estimate out of line? I want 52-53k a year. It's hard to find anything on places like LinkedIn and glassdoor for my official job title but to me, my duties seem to fit a job title like Buyer, or Senior Buyer (Subcontract Administrator?) considering the decision making responsibilities I have. If you were a hiring manager looking to fill a position like mine, how much would you budget? Take into account the low CoL of a plains state or southern metro area. Third is, what is the best way to go about asking for more money? Obviously I can quit and go find something else and realistically that might be my only option to get paid in line with my responsibilities. The pay is the only part of my job that really brings me down though, the rest of it I enjoy for the most part. I like having the ability to make decisions that matter, and seeing the results of my improvements. Do I stick it out for another year and see if a big bump in pay is in my future as we continue to expand operations? I have no dependents besides myself, and nothing really tying me to the city I live in right now. I feel like they would have to pay more money than I'm asking to get someone who would take months or years to get as good at my job as I am right now.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:27
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rscott posted:I guess my questions are threefold. Am I being delusional? The labor market is as tight as it's been in my adult life, but I'm 31 and I don't have a college degree. I have a lot of job experience in a lot of different aspects of manufacturing as I've worked my way up to where I am now but I don't have any certifications or "official" training to point to. This is as much money as I've ever made in my life and I've gotten a ~20% raise over the last calendar year. With overtime I'm probably going to gross 55k this year. It seems pretty clear to me at this point that the company wants to use the fact that I've been underpaid in the past to continue to underpay me in the future, no matter how my responsibilities increase. I think your intuition that the company wants to use the fact you've been underpaid in the past to continue to underpay you regardless of increased responsibilities is correct; this is how companies behave, generally. I briefly looked up salaries for Buyers in Omaha, NE, since you mentioned plains states and that was the first metro I thought of. The range on Glassdoor is 44k-84k with an average of 61k, so I don't think your salary ask would be out of line with the market, provided that job is what you would be doing. I'm not an expert in either the field or the locale, though. The thread talks about a concept called BATNA, Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement. Basically, what are your options if the company says they don't want to negotiate with you? (They'll say this in the form of "Company policy says that you're not presently eligible..." or "My hands are tied right now, this isn't a good time..." or something along these lines.) The best form of BATNA is to have another offer in hand, because then your BATNA is "accept this other offer" rather than "well, I guess I keep working for you". If I were in your position, I'd start a job hunt and see what other opportunities are out there and what companies are offering. There's some tactical advice that can help with that -- don't tell anyone what you're currently making, don't talk about salary expectations before the company is extending an offer. That way, you'll have some data about what your alternatives are as well as a better negotiating position.
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Jul 2, 2018 06:58
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Mandatory reminder that if you have a worthwhile offer from another company, take it. Don’t invite your current employer to match or top it. They will likely agree and then immediately start lining up your replacement, and as soon as that’s arranged they’ll unceremoniously fire you. Just hand in your resignation.
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Jul 2, 2018 09:35
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rscott posted:Hello BFC! I'm not going to get into the basics that others have covered, but as a professional in purchasing/procurement, I'd just give you a couple of thoughts. I don't know what you're based specifically, but you are being underpaid to the market at least compared to where I am, which is Louisville, KY (a relatively low cost of living area). There are tons of purchasing coordinator/manager/buyer jobs around here and they are in your range and higher. You are doing more than a buyer/expediter - which already average around 45k+ Not having a college degree in a finance related field doesn't help, even if its in an unrelated field (I have no business degree myself), but it's very easy to get some certifications cheaply/quickly. Those can potentially go a long way with new employers - for example - Certified Purchasing Professional from APS or a Lean/Six Sigma certification from wherever. Being young and in procurement is a good thing, as it is a rarity in many sectors/companies. I was in a very similar position as you at first (worked for a manufacturing company as the Purchasing Coordinator/Manager buying around 10MM a year) and I had to leave because they never were going to value me appropriately since I originally had started managing inventory.
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Jul 2, 2018 15:04
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Paul Proteus posted:I'm not going to get into the basics that others have covered, but as a professional in purchasing/procurement, I'd just give you a couple of thoughts. Thanks for the perspective. This is kind of a career I fell backwards into because stuff needed to be done, so it's difficult for me to judge the scope of my job duties compared to a typical position and what it's worth on the wider job market. At varying times I've been told a trained monkey could do my job and that if I took a vacation, no one else could cover and the whole company would grind to a halt.
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Jul 2, 2018 18:28
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My girlfriends coworker just quit. Shes willing to do her job responsibilities since what she already does is closely aligned with what the other did. How does she try and show interest in taking on the other job but only if she gets paid more?
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Jul 6, 2018 17:36
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"Make it rain, bitches."
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Jul 6, 2018 18:16
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The WSJ of all places had an article showing that workers get basically double the raise by going to a new company over staying with the one you're currently at long term, it's kind of disgusting how much it depresses your long term earnings
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Jul 6, 2018 18:22
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rscott posted:The WSJ of all places had an article showing that workers get basically double the raise by going to a new company over staying with the one you're currently at long term, it's kind of disgusting how much it depresses your long term earnings “Never don’t be job searching” is the new “Never don’t negotiate”
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Jul 7, 2018 02:18
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Anyone have experience negotiating against the Oregon Equal Pay Act or similar law? Someone I know received an offer for less than they wanted and think they deserve. The company justified it by saying they are faced with this law and they have to use "new legal filters" when assessing salary. When they prepared the offer, the company said they had to compare against candidates with a similar level of experience who, according to the company, do not make what the candidate is asking for. Kinda bullshit to me. I think there are more criteria than level of experience that they could draw on to justify a higher salary but I'm not sure what the best approach would be. Appreciate any ideas.
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Jul 20, 2018 03:31
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Corben Goble-Garbus posted:Anyone have experience negotiating against the Oregon Equal Pay Act or similar law? Someone I know received an offer for less than they wanted and think they deserve. The company justified it by saying they are faced with this law and they have to use "new legal filters" when assessing salary. When they prepared the offer, the company said they had to compare against candidates with a similar level of experience who, according to the company, do not make what the candidate is asking for.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:03
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My story at least has a mostly happy ending, today they came back and offered me $5k more a year in base salary and enrollment in the secret "essential/core" employee bonus tier, which starts out in the low 4 digits yearly and goes up to ????
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Jul 20, 2018 19:14
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I find myself in a situation where I recently improved my earning power and wanted to get some advice on how to approach things. I work for a very well known substance abuse program, which I started with in March of this year. They have excellent benefits and pay a bit above market rate. I'm very happy with my workplace. I hold a LAC to do addiction counseling and last week finally got my LPC to do mental health counseling. It's a really big deal in our field to have dual licensure. By getting this I opened myself up to options to work in a private practice, and opened up like 4 times more job opportunities. Now I started with this company in March, and we should be doing our yearly review and raise in October. I think it's appropriate to ask for a raise in conjunction with this license before October, however, at the moment I'm not doing too many duties that require the mental health license. There's a clinical director who oversees a lot of services and the executive director who focuses on business operations. I'm thinking that I should go to the clinical director and ask what program improvements he's been thinking about and how I can help and also asking him for a raise. I'm considering a few different trainings to develop some specialized skills, and I'd like to talk it over to see what the program needs to develop further in that direction. The C-suite staff is very approachable and we often eat lunch together. I don't see there being an issue with grabbing either of them about this. I guess the big areas I'm still curious about are: Should I approach the clinical director or executive director? How should I account for being so new to the company? What would be the best number to ask for? I'm thinking 10%. How do I handle it if they punt the raise or discussion to October? I do have concerns about not delivering services at this point that use the new license, but I believe they could slot me into new duties that would need it.
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Jul 21, 2018 16:28
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1. You can ask and at least professionally put the brass on notice that you want to move up, but you have no BATNA, thus no leverage, thus they have no reason to give you a dime and likely won’t. 2. The only reliable way to get meaningful raises/promotions is to seek employment elsewhere, because then you will have a strong BATNA (keep my current job and/or take a different offer). 3. Never go over your boss’s head unless it’s your goal to provoke them to fury.
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Jul 21, 2018 17:03
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I just got a middling job offer by email, should I counteroffer +15% immediately or ask for a day to "think" and counteroffer tomorrow?
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Jul 23, 2018 20:32
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If you don't really want the job, you may as well practice asking for more than you're comfortable asking for. Aim higher. EDIT: I guess I parsed that as an offer for a middling job, and not a middling offer for a job you want. Ignore me if it's the latter.
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Jul 23, 2018 20:37
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Middling offer for a job I want. Mostly wondering if I should counteroffer now or let them sit for a day, I already know what my counter is
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Jul 23, 2018 20:40
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Unsinkabear posted:Middling offer for a job I want. Mostly wondering if I should counteroffer now or let them sit for a day, I already know what my counter is What does letting the offer sit for a day do?
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Jul 23, 2018 20:48
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:What does letting the offer sit for a day do? The illusion of very careful consideration I guess? I get weirdly nervous about people thinking I answered too fast too even though it's probably not even something they think about.
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Jul 23, 2018 21:03
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Yeah, that basically. I'm not very white collar so this poo poo all makes me nervous as hell. I just wanted time to agonize over my email phrasing, but then I was agonizing over the email ASKING for time, so I just said gently caress it and sent a counteroffer. Fingers crossed
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Jul 23, 2018 21:16
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m0therfux0r posted:The illusion of very careful consideration I guess? I get weirdly nervous about people thinking I answered too fast too even though it's probably not even something they think about. Just as likely responding immediately gives the illusion (if not actual reality) that (a) you want the job, but also (b) you know what level of compensation you expect and their first offer wasn't it. Like don't respond immediately immediately because you don't want them thinking/realizing you're sitting around  'ing looking for an email from them. But responding after like an hour is fine.
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Jul 23, 2018 22:45
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Macaroni Surprise posted:I find myself in a situation where I recently improved my earning power and wanted to get some advice on how to approach things.
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Jul 23, 2018 23:19
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So I just got my offer letter. All it really says is I get health insurance after 3 months (I won't need it, my wife has excellent coverage through her job for both of us), my salary, start date, the vacation policy which is "discretionary" and a month notice needed, and then a confidentiality agreement and a 2 year non compete. I assume I'm in the right to ask them to define sick days and personal days, ask for a clearer job responsibilities, cell phone policy refinement and 401k if offered? Am I missing anything else?
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Jul 24, 2018 14:31
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i wouldn't sign that noncompete
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Jul 24, 2018 14:36
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i wouldn't sign that noncompete The way I look at it, it's a msp and if I end up leaving, it won't be for another msp.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:37
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Everything you said is good. Also I’d see if there is compensation for waiving health insurance. I know at my job that if I decline I essentially get $400 added to my paycheck a month. So get a more defined offer then ask for more money once things present a clearer picture.
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Jul 24, 2018 14:45
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Is the non-compete paid? If it's not paid, it's generally not enforceable(I'm not a lawyer, etc), though they could still hassle you about and waste your time and potentially take you to court. They're also not enforceable in California. Asking for non-discretionary vacation is something I'd so but I don't know what you're negotiating position looks like.
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Jul 24, 2018 15:42
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