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Counterpoint: It's no good at all and don't waste your time. 00 has a lot of nice looking designs, but I found it to be really dull, Setsuna F. Seiei is completely uninteresting as a protagonist and in 9ish episodes I made it through there were no real other characters I felt like I really wanted to see how their stories played out. The idea of this independently funded group that appears from nowhere having superior technology to any existing country in order to stop war the hard way seemed patently ridiculous and no poo poo it forces everyone into an arms race which creates more conflict than the protagonists claimed to want to stop. In general I think outside of Mikazuki Gundam has done really poorly with child soldiers as protagonists.
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Jul 6, 2018 17:52
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Potsticker posted:Counterpoint: It's no good at all and don't waste your time. 00 has a lot of nice looking designs, but I found it to be really dull, Setsuna F. Seiei is completely uninteresting as a protagonist and in 9ish episodes I made it through there were no real other characters I felt like I really wanted to see how their stories played out. The idea of this independently funded group that appears from nowhere having superior technology to any existing country in order to stop war the hard way seemed patently ridiculous and no poo poo it forces everyone into an arms race which creates more conflict than the protagonists claimed to want to stop. Congratulations, you somehow missed the entirety of Schenberg's Plan because the arms race is the entire loving point; CB shows up, they piss off everyone to the point of having to co-operate to stop Celestial Being, the warring nations unite to stand against CB until the Gundams get destroyed. The various nations now feel extremely embarrassed about restarting old conflicts after mutual co-operation and give that whole peace thing a try instead.
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Jul 6, 2018 17:58
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Don't get me wrong I'm not mad that he's Kurdish but I want to know if the creators actually understand the many implications that come with choosing specific nationalities. Japan has a less than stellar track record of representing foreign cultures faithfully so I am somewhat wary is all. Since 00 tries to be closer to reality by setting itself in our own calendar and using identifiable nations and potential power blocs, authentic representation of other countries can get tricky real fast.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:00
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Congratulations, you somehow missed the entirety of Schenberg's Plan because the arms race is the entire loving point; CB shows up, they piss off everyone to the point of having to co-operate to stop Celestial Being, the warring nations unite to stand against CB until the Gundams get destroyed. The various nations now feel extremely embarrassed about restarting old conflicts after mutual co-operation and give that whole peace thing a try instead. Wasn't the idea that the blocs would unite to fight Celestial Being, then CB would be like, "ok you're united enough" and give them the GN drives so a united GN powered humanity could meet aliens? But the Innovades hosed it all up by giving the countries fake GN drives before they were sufficiently united? I haven't seen the show in a while
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Jul 6, 2018 18:01
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Is Setsuna Kurdish? I thought he was just from one of several warring Muslim nations after the map had been redrawn a couple of dozen times.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:04
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I'm not sure that was revealed as far in as I watched. Especially since as far as I remember Schenberg was still supposed to be dead 200 years ago or whatever. Which was another point which was also a fairly uninteresting mystery as presented. Everyone who was a member of Celestial Being seemed to just be following orders up the chain, with no clear reason why anyone actually joined together to put the plan in motion in the first place. 9 episodes in and I felt like there wasn't any clear reason why the Meisters especially joined up to do what they do outside of vaguely wanting to end war. They also didn't particularly get along, which I mean conflict between main characters isn't bad in of itself, but there was just a general dislike and didn't seem to affect them working together so-- again it was just kind of like a nothing plot point.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:05
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Him being specifically Kurdish is probably not something they meant to do something special with. That said making him a victim of wars in the middle east is a good visual and storytelling shorthand for "indoctrinated child soldier" and also allows them to make Africa not a worn-torn continent in the setting (as they did).Darth Walrus posted:Is Setsuna Kurdish? I thought he was just from one of several warring Muslim nations after the map had been redrawn a couple of dozen times. Zedd fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 18:06
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Guy Goodbody posted:Wasn't the idea that the blocs would unite to fight Celestial Being, then CB would be like, "ok you're united enough" and give them the GN drives so a united GN powered humanity could meet aliens? But the Innovades hosed it all up by giving the countries fake GN drives before they were sufficiently united? I admit it's been a while for me too, but pretty sure the original plan was for the Meisters to eat poo poo and get destroyed at that endurance fight in the desert so the Earth nations could feel all good and happy about conquering the big bad Celestial Being Gundams (and then the Innovades sent the Thrones in to gently caress it all up). The Innovades giving the Earth forces GN tech at all was also a spanner in the works. Remember that most of the fancy GN tech came in season 2, including the big asteroid-ship. The bad season. I really should rewatch 00 myself, come to think of it. Potsticker posted:They also didn't particularly get along, which I mean conflict between main characters isn't bad in of itself, but there was just a general dislike and didn't seem to affect them working together so-- again it was just kind of like a nothing plot point. They come from very disparate backgrounds, but share a common motivation. 
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Jul 6, 2018 18:10
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Sure but, while that's fine with competent writing, 00 didn't have that. Certainly anyone interested should watch the first couple episodes to try for themselves, but for me, it was an extremely boring show where the protagonists seemed to have no difficulty with the enemies they faced and had no chemistry with each other meaning that both the cool robot fights and the character moments out of the mobile suits just felt flat.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:24
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I made it through 1 (one) episode.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:26
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Potsticker posted:Sure but, while that's fine with competent writing, 00 didn't have that. Certainly anyone interested should watch the first couple episodes to try for themselves, but for me, it was an extremely boring show where the protagonists seemed to have no difficulty with the enemies they faced and had no chemistry with each other meaning that both the cool robot fights and the character moments out of the mobile suits just felt flat. That's because those character moments go to the Earth forces and how they react to (and start to plan for) dealing with the cool unstoppable robots.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:29
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All robot shows are good.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:33
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I watched about a dozen episodes of 00 and it didn't draw me in. The main characters were edgy and conventionally cool teenage boys who were part of a mysterious secret organization and in spite of being kids were given the most powerful weapons ever made and were ultra elite pilots. In the Gundam series I actually liked, the Gundams were a level or two above the average but weren't invincible superweapons. The characters who piloted it had a logical reason to be piloting it; they were forced into it out of desperation or assigned it as a test pilot or were piloting it as a regular soldier, whatever. And there were some kind of compounding issue that put them in danger in spite of being in such a powerful machine. They had no training or were trained but average, they were hosed up on love/hate/depression/vengeance, or were hosed by the circumstances of the war, their duty, low morale, etc.. I'm sure 00 tied things together in some fashion eventually, but double-digit episodes of unexplained elite child soldiers in superweapons showing up out of nowhere and sighing as they pressed the "blow up everything" button didn't do it for me. edit: though Setsuna telling off the princess for assuming anyone with darker skin was one of her people was actually unintentionally hilarious and entertaining BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 18:33
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IBO is the best gundam show and has the best kits. Coincidence?
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Jul 6, 2018 18:36
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BattleMaster posted:I watched about a dozen episodes of 00 and it didn't draw me in. Those are valid points. The latter half of the first season actually does address a lot of that though; The GN particles operate on a solid set of rules, and things start going sideways for Celestial Being as the Earth forces puzzle them out and plan accordingly. Also it turns out that aside from having superiorly- built Mobile Suits they're not all that great at piloting in an even fight.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:37
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 Construction of the graze custom progressing at a steady, glacial pace.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:41
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The uniting factor for me is no matter how bad a show may get at least the robot designs can be good. AGE-1 is my favorite suit and I quite liked the run of AGE with it in it but then the show disintegrated. But it still gave me Dark Hound.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:43
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sassassin posted:IBO is the best gundam show and has the best kits. Coincidence? The Graze is absolutely beautiful. Three done and I'm still looking at others to pick up.
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Jul 6, 2018 18:48
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I've had a hard time finding vanilla Graze kits lately it kinda blows. Amazon sellers are up to $20+ on a kit that was like $10 at release
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Jul 6, 2018 19:15
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Marx Headroom posted:I've had a hard time finding vanilla Graze kits lately it kinda blows. Amazon sellers are up to $20+ on a kit that was like $10 at release If you're painting the Graze Ritter has all the basic graze parts in the box. edit: Maybe it's missing the chest piece, actually. I had a spare from the second Schwalbe I bought.
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Jul 6, 2018 19:19
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 I really wish we had an MG of this fucker.
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Jul 6, 2018 20:55
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Making some serious progress on the Build Strike Rouge, will hopefully be done on Sunday. And to think, a while ago I thought I would hate painting kits.
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Jul 7, 2018 02:03
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BattleMaster posted:I watched about a dozen episodes of 00 and it didn't draw me in. Celestial Being are kinda-sorta the villains - or, at least, they occupy the narrative role of antagonists, as the invincible force for the scrappy underdogs to overcome. The fun is in watching Graham, Soma, Sergei, and Patrick (yes, even Patrick) gradually figure out how to deal with them. Also, I was actually thinking about this today, and there’s some surprising parallels between 00’s first season and IBO’s second. Yeah, I know they have the same director, but I was struck by how far it goes.
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Jul 7, 2018 02:15
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EVGA Longoria posted:Making some serious progress on the Build Strike Rouge, will hopefully be done on Sunday. When you get in the zone and get good results it really does help.
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Jul 7, 2018 03:11
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Darth Walrus posted:Celestial Being are kinda-sorta the villains - or, at least, they occupy the narrative role of antagonists, as the invincible force for the scrappy underdogs to overcome. The fun is in watching Graham, Soma, Sergei, and Patrick (yes, even Patrick) gradually figure out how to deal with them. You mean like all the killing? Or the blonde kid getting obsessive about white and blue gundams?
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Jul 7, 2018 05:13
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sassassin posted:IBO is the best gundam show and has the best kits. Coincidence? It is not a coincidence, no.
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Jul 7, 2018 06:21
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Darth Walrus posted:Celestial Being are kinda-sorta the villains - or, at least, they occupy the narrative role of antagonists, as the invincible force for the scrappy underdogs to overcome. The fun is in watching Graham, Soma, Sergei, and Patrick (yes, even Patrick) gradually figure out how to deal with them. My interpretation while watching was that Celestial Being was incredibly naive and misguided at best and (un?)witting pawns in the same conflicts they were trying to prevent at worst; at first they just show up and break weapons without solving the reasons why people are fighting which just causes everyone to get more angry and more willing to keep fighting. And then when various factions figure out what their MO is they just find ways to manipulate Celestial Being into fighting for them in the same conflicts that CB was supposed to be ending or preventing. And when they picked up on this fact they just shrugged and decided they'd better keep doing what they're doing. As a result I had a hard time accepting that they were the good guys through all this, and I'm clearly not the only person with that interpretation. However, the part that caused me to stop watching is that I felt like the show wanted me to think they were the good guys, that they were doing the right thing by mindlessly breaking weapons with no context for why anyone was fighting, and that neutrality is the only correct viewpoint no matter how badly one side in a given conflict was aggrieved by the other. Especially given that some other recent-ish Gundam series have taken that point of view, like SEED and SEED Destiny with ORB getting attacked twice due to their "neutrality above all" philosophy while standing in the way of a conflict where one party has a drat good reason to want to fight to defend themselves from the other party. I'm just not in the mood for neutrality when one party is murdering the other and I'm expected to be on board with someone saying "why do you have to be mad" Also given past Gundams and given the presentation of the first chunk of the series it's kind of easy to see why I'd have a hard time getting that the cool/cute boys with super robots fighting for some interpretation of peace weren't supposed to be who I was cheering on. BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 06:46
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BattleMaster posted:My interpretation while watching was that Celestial Being was incredibly naive and misguided at best and (un?)witting pawns in the same conflicts they were trying to prevent at worst; at first they just show up and break weapons without solving the reasons why people are fighting which just causes everyone to get more angry and more willing to keep fighting. And then when various factions figure out what their MO is they just find ways to manipulate Celestial Being into fighting for them in the same conflicts that CB was supposed to be ending or preventing. And when they picked up on this fact they just shrugged and decided they'd better keep doing what they're doing. You've missed the point of why they worked to poo poo on everyone's fun; It wasn't to go "HEY GUYS STOP FIGHTING EVERYONE AND BE FRIENDS INSTEAD!!", it was to get everyone so annoyed that working together to stop Celestial Being was a better option than fighting eachother. Once CB runs away or the Meisters get killed, they're left holding the bag on a nascent peace because all those multi-national soldiers who just fought side-by-side suddenly aren't all that motivated to just go back to blindly killing eachother. Celestial Being's end-goal is to put a stop to petty border wars between the superpowers once and for all, because Aeolia Schenberg knows aliens exist out there and he wants to drag humanity kicking-and-screaming out of its old bad habits to be ready for them. Yes, it's deliberately high-and-mighty and treated as such. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 06:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You've missed the point of why they worked to poo poo on everyone's fun; It wasn't to go "HEY GUYS STOP FIGHTING EVERYONE AND BE FRIENDS INSTEAD!!", it was to get everyone so annoyed that working together to stop Celestial Being was a better option than fighting eachother. Once CB runs away or the Meisters get killed, they're left holding the bag on a nascent peace because all those multi-national soldiers who just fought side-by-side suddenly aren't all that motivated to just go back to blindly killing eachother. I would be on board with that but it hadn't even been hinted on in the first dozen or so episodes I had watched before getting too annoyed. I may go back and give it another chance now that I know this, but I hadn't walked away with a good impression of it in my first attempt.
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Jul 7, 2018 06:57
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I really feel what Neddy has been missing is that 1) all of that is not even close to being revealed in the approximately first half of the first season we watched, and 2) even knowing that as a plan is incredibly naive because all you've really done is caused a military buildup and still haven't resolved the core problems that caused the wars in the first place. Now, assuming that it does prepare them for the alien invasion (is this plot point in the first season?) and they manage to fight that off then perhaps I can see a result where Earth becomes unified now against this external foe.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:01
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One world order Earths are boring and done to death. I'd love to see a Gundam AU where it's a lovely little border war between some balkanized hellscape nations in central Europe instead of nebulous "Earth versus Space" or "Earth vs Meisters". I'll give 00 a shot even though outside of my big boi the Tieren I find most of the MS designs pretty ugly. It's just my personal view but I don't see a unified Earth becoming a thing before we get into space or even after that. At this point it just feels naive to think we could cooperate long enough to make the big world government last any amount of time.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:03
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Potsticker posted:I really feel what Neddy has been missing is that 1) all of that is not even close to being revealed in the approximately first half of the first season we watched, and 2) even knowing that as a plan is incredibly naive because all you've really done is caused a military buildup and still haven't resolved the core problems that caused the wars in the first place. Now, assuming that it does prepare them for the alien invasion (is this plot point in the first season?) and they manage to fight that off then perhaps I can see a result where Earth becomes unified now against this external foe. I'll agree with the first part, but the miltary buildup is superfluous. Once peace is declared, like almost literally every war ever, it tends to lead some degree of mutual disarmament just because there's no need for the excess manpower and hardware. Also it's for the dialogues to come, not an invasion. The whole point's to get humanity dressed up and polite with a united government to look good for when, not if, they encounter other species.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:05
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Once peace is declared, like almost literally every war ever, Are we talking real-world here? Because I'd be interested in hearing you make a case for this when, as far as I know, it's patently false.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:07
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Potsticker posted:Are we talking real-world here? Because I'd be interested in hearing you make a case for this when, as far as I know, it's patently false. WW1 WW2 Vietnam. The Cold War (nuclear disarmament) Hmm, yes, every one of those hundreds of thousands of enlistees sure stayed in the military once the war was over and didn't come home to restart their lives. Don't forget all those nukes the US and USSR still have active and ready to fire since the height of the Cold War.  .
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Jul 7, 2018 07:15
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Neddy Seagoon posted:WW1 Like, you're just having a laugh now, right?
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Jul 7, 2018 07:20
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WW1 was immediately followed by two empire destroying civil wars, as well as a vicious Greek invasion of Turkey.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:29
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I feel like, even though the Cold War is over there's still tensions between the two nations because like-- even this last US election there's been talk of how the Russians were manipulating things and I feel like 9/11 especially showed that the US is just waiting for that perfect spark of Archduke Ferdinand getting assassinated to go to war again.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:32
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Potsticker posted:Like, you're just having a laugh now, right? The relevant one here would be Washington Naval treaty, 1921. Born as a result of WW1 and a prospective arms race among the Allies with UK having the biggest fleet at the time. Limited the number of the Big Boy ships each nation could have (Battleships, Battlecruisers and Carriers), as well as the tonnage of other ship classes like cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Arcsquad12 posted:WW1 was immediately followed by two empire destroying civil wars, as well as a vicious Greek invasion of Turkey. Absolutely true, but not the relevant circumstances I've been trying to refer to. Potsticker posted:I feel like, even though the Cold War is over there's still tensions between the two nations because like-- even this last US election there's been talk of how the Russians were manipulating things and I feel like 9/11 especially showed that the US is just waiting for that perfect spark of Archduke Ferdinand getting assassinated to go to war again. Again true, but my point was in the past 40-odd years it's down to about 5,000 apiece nukes instead of 30-40,000.
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Jul 7, 2018 07:34
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There's an old joke that goes:quote:"If the first World War was the War to End All Wars, then Versailles was the Peace to End All Peace." EDIT: Neddy Seagoon posted:The relevant one here would be Washington Naval treaty, 1921. Born as a result of WW1 and a prospective arms race among the Allies with UK having the biggest fleet at the time. Limited the number of the Big Boy ships each nation could have (Battleships, Battlecruisers and Carriers), as well as the tonnage of other ship classes like cruisers, destroyers and submarines. Germany immediately started doing everything it could to subvert the treaty and then outright ignored it after they figured out unrestricted submarine warfare would give them a near-unbeatable edge in the early days of World War One 2: The Second One. 3 fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 07:35
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Absolutely true, but not the relevant circumstances I've been trying to refer to. Neddy Seagoon posted:Again true, but my point was in the past 40-odd years it's down to about 5,000 apiece nukes instead of 30-40,000. That has nothing to do with a war ending causing peace. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but even if we have less nukes the ones we can build now are far more powerful? And even besides that, like is 5,000 nukes apiece going to somehow be less world-ending if they were all launched? I mean, just in the context of Cool Robots War Bad, Celestial Being was directly causing more advanced weapons to be created. Even if they destroy a bunch of crappy old stuff, the new stuff can cause way more destruction?
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Jul 7, 2018 07:42
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