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Feenix posted:The better advice if one thinks suggesting cheap products is the way to avoid an expensive mistake is to rent or borrow tools and use them a bit and THEN buy quality. Yep, or order your projects in a way that the ones which need fewer tools come first. Lots of ways to avoid buying junk on amazon and instead buying selectively and buying things you wont have to replace for a long time.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:01
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There is a broad range of products between cheap junk, and goddamn veritas. It's like someone asking for car recommendations and you're helpfully pointing out that nothing beats a mercedes for quality and performance and acting like everything less expensive is a worthless piece of poo poo car only a fool would buy.  I have not recommended anyone buy "junk." "Buy good and buy once" is fine if someone is definitely entering into a lifelong commitment to the woodworking hobby. I guess often people who have already made that lifelong commitment to the woodworking hobby can't see how that's not appropriate for a beginner. It really sucks to come in wanting to try something out and being exclusively told to spend a thousand bucks on top-of-the-line tools by the experts. I've seen this tendency across a lot of different hobbies and interests, but I've never seen it so bad as in the woodworking arena. If someone comes in and says "hey I'm a beginner but I'm looking for the very best top quality tools that will last a lifetime and money is no object as I first try out this thing" then sure, go ahead and recommend the best. Otherwise you're doing people a disservice to categorically declare everything but the very best to be unacceptable junk. I already linked to a good $25 japanese pull saw. It's not "junk" it's a perfectly serviceable tool that will last years. I have one myself. The Irwin chisels are also really good nice chisels, they're not junk. If you don't like that particular $50 router plane, there are intermediary ones for less than the $159 Veritas. But given the reasonably good reviews on the $50 one, I'm really suspicious of the blanket declaration that it's junk. If I've got $200 to $300 to spend on a few tools to try out a hobby and someone's telling me to spend more than half my budget on a single hand tool, what they're really telling me is to either spend a lot more money, or give up on trying out this expensive-rear end hobby. I want to make it clear that - in addition to the excellent option of buying used tools - there are entry-level options for woodworking that do not require a big budget and that will be adequate for learning to do woodworking. There is a middle ground here.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:28
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I actually told him to skip the router plane for now, due to cost, but if he can get a used stanley 72 1/2 for $50 on ebay then he should do that way before considering buying a $50 piece of junk from amazon. There are very few hand tools on amazon that are any good and wont need replacing as soon as you get a modicum of experience. Sorry but the general buying habbit of "cheap thing on amazon ougut to do it" just falls way short in this hobby. But keep raging and offering bad advice my dude.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:32
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Yes it's true that using a bad tool can be frustrating and off-putting, but maybe what you want to try out is the "making things" and not "using tools" part, and if the joy of making things outweighs the frustration of poor tools, maybe you will be more likely to upgrade your toolbox over time. It sure beats never getting to make anything because getting into the hobby was "outside your initial budget." A $10 saw will still cut wood. Yes it will be tougher to use, the cuts may not be as clean as a $100 saw will allow, but at least you could still afford to also buy a set of chisels too. And the $10 set of chisels can probably still be sharpened well enough to let you cut your first dovetail, even if they won't hold the edge as well. If you want to find out if you enjoy making things from wood, cheap tools can still give you opportunity.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:42
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GEMorris posted:There are very few hand tools on amazon that are any good and wont need replacing as soon as you get a modicum of experience. There's undoubtedly lots of bad tools on Amazon, but it's not universal and there's plenty of good options too. Again, there's an actual, real middle ground between worthless junk, and veritas. A beginner may not commit to the hobby long-term and wanting to eventually upgrade a few tools is fine given the alternative is to never get started at all because the hobby was declared just too expensive to get into. It's just not always the best advice to tell people to either buy a lifetime tool, or nothing at all. A beginner with a limited budget who just wants to try this out and see if it suits them can and should buy affordable tools, even if eventually they'd be replaced if it turns out they decide they're ready to make a long-term commitment. I have no experience with the Cowryman router plane on amazon, so I won't state categorically that it's fine. I don't know. But if a used Stanley doesn't turn up on ebay, it's probably a better option than nothing at all, which is the only other option within this person's budget.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:48
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I appreciate all the advice given in this thread, getting a range of views to inform my purchase is super helpful. Thanks one and all.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:48
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Well we all at least seem to agree that you can get good used tools, so in that respect hopefully there's not too much confusion.
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Jul 5, 2018 20:53
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nielsm posted:If you want to find out if you enjoy making things from wood, cheap tools can still give you opportunity. They lead to frustration, leaving the hobby, or the regret of having to spend more money on the same "function" just to get something that passably works. I am trying to save people money in the long run, while ensuring the tools are what keep them from enjoying the hobby in the short term. This doesnt even get into resale value. Most veritas and lie-nielsen tools retain their value extrmely well, used is only about a 10-15% discount. Where as no one ever wants to buy secondhand amazon junk. Leperflesh posted:I want to make it clear that - in addition to the excellent option of buying used tools - there are entry-level options for woodworking that do not require a big budget and that will be adequate for learning to do woodworking. There is a middle ground here. This is where you are the most wrong, and the fact that you think $25 amazon saw is the "adequate entry point" shows that you dont seem to have any experience with the "expensive" tools you are railing against. The veritas molded spine saws *are* the functional entry level point for western saws. Everytjing beneath them is either used (learn2sharpen) or junk. Ive used a number of them, they are terrible. No one is recommending the top end. Im just recommending buying something good enough that you wont have to replace it in a year. The benefit of resale value if you end up not liking woodworking is icing, and you have the additonal benefit of knowing that bad tools aren't what made you dislike the hobby. Edit: wow that router plane looks like a total piece of poo poo and I can't believe you'd recommend it to someone without having any experience with it at all. A used 72 or 72 1/2 would be miles better than that thing. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jul 5, 2018 |
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Jul 5, 2018 20:55
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I got into this hobby with a $50 used ryobi router table purchased in gas station parking lot and a $8 Home Depot saw + miter box combo (you know the one). Despite the frustrating garbage tools I was able to make a jewelry box and enjoyed it enough that I now have a dedicated workshop with thousands of dollars worth of tools. I'm with nielsm, its more about seeing of you like making things vs. using tools. EDIT - Correction, it was $40 and I bragged about it in this very thread 6 years ago: Super Waffle posted:So I wrote earlier in the thread that I had bought a new router and table off craigslist. I've never really done any woodworking before but I promised my girlfriend I would build her a jewelry box. I'm pretty excited about it all and I've made a little progress. Heres the router I got, a slightly older model Ryobi, the one before the current model: Super Waffle fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jul 5, 2018 |
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Jul 5, 2018 21:00
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I bought an £18 ryoba and a £25 set of chisels, I leant to sharpen the chisels and I'll never go back to a western saw. Some time this year I'll buy a nicer ryoba and relegate this one to butchering 2x4s. I bought cheap planes, learnt to sharpen and tune them (I'd have had to do that with a used vintage Stanley too) and they work fine. I've used really nice well tuned planes (my brothers) and mine, while not as good, are fine. My current stumbling block is my workbench is a garage bench, and absolutely covered in poo poo.
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Jul 5, 2018 21:09
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I've bought most of my tools off of Amazon. They've worked fine and I have not found them to be a major source of frustration. Could I have bought better tools and had a nicer experience? Sure, as long as I could ignore the fact that I'd dropped a couple grand on tools that I didn't really need to. Really the only times I've had buyer's remorse on tools is when price has been my only deciding factor. That results in tools made from bad steel with poor quality controls, and those are frustrating, if not impossible, to use. But such tools are not the majority. Outside of those few cases generally I've gotten tools that work pretty well but not perfectly, and that's fine. Certainly more than adequate for a newbie, whose primary limiting factors on quality are going to be from things like not being able to line up cuts reliably, chipping the wood, and other basic skill issues. Elitism is not the only valid path in this hobby. People are allowed to be price-sensitive and use tools that aren't the very top of the line.
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Jul 5, 2018 21:22
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ColdPie posted:Breakers are pretty easy to swap, right? Couldn't you just install a non AFCI breaker until an inspection is needed or you sell the house? Eh, I mean yeah you probably could, I just really don't want to unless it's absolutely necessary.
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Jul 5, 2018 22:06
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I like to preach saving the money and buying the good tool, but I started out with crappy tools. My first handplane was from Home Depot and I didn't even sharpen the blade, or know it needed to be sharpened out of the box. Still built lots of stuff and of course I got frustrated at times, but never so frustrated that I quit, the joy of making stuff was much greater than any frustration. So go for the cheap ones to get started, but realize that they have their limitations and that sometimes it is the tool and not the craftsman to blame. Then get the good stuff after a couple projects when you kind of know what you're doing.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:00
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GEMorris posted:I actually told him to skip the router plane for now, due to cost, but if he can get a used stanley 72 1/2 for $50 on ebay then he should do that way before considering buying a $50 piece of junk from amazon. Sorry but unless you spend all of your free time trolling eBay for auctions, there’s no way to get a Stanley router plane for that price. I consistently saw auctions ending for $100+ of varying quality, which is the main reason I ended up going with the veritas. I will say I lucked out once and got a 45 combo plane with both full cutter sets for $100, but the modern equivalent would have run me about $600 with that many extra cutters.
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Jul 5, 2018 23:38
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You should consider if you are interested in the hobby of making stuff out of wood or the hobby of using hand tools. They are very much connected and related, but if you want to actually make stuff that doesn't take forever-if the end result is more your interest than the process- then you are going to want some power tools, in particular a router. I absolutely love using hand tools, and relish when a job requires me to slow down and get out planes and chisels, but electricity is a wonderful thing when you need to get something done, and a router, especially with a router table, is about the most versatile power tool there is. It will do absolutely everything a router plane will do, and a whole lot more besides. You don't need one now, but you might want one soon. Whatever your interest, you do need some stuff to start, and a saw and some chisels are definitely up there. If at this point you mostly want to play around cutting joints and are going to use surfaced lumber, you don't really need a plane, but it's a good thing to have around. The old Stanley block planes are great, and readily available used. I have some very fancy Lie-Nielsen saws that are indeed a pleasure to use and worth every penny, but the first saw I reach for 90% of the time is one of these: https://www.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=pull+saw I learned to cut dovetails with the small one, and the large one does about everything I've ever needed a saw to do. It's slower than a big handsaw, especially for ripping, but it absolutely cuts wood and costs $20 and doesn't ruin your day if you drop it or hit a nail or something. Narex makes well made chisels for very cheap, and you really don't need a bunch of chisels. 1/4" and 1/2" and maybe a wider one. You can cut about every woodworking joint you can imagine with a saw and sharp chisels and a drill to start a mortise. Used tools can be a great deal, but they can also be a huge time sink and very frustrating to set up if you don't know how they are supposed to work in the first place. Time spent cutting wood with a cheap tool is time better spent than time fretting about if you have the right tool. The best favor you can do yourself (and it's free!) is watch The Woodwright's Shop with Roy Underhill on PBS-there's like a decade of back episodes here http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/ He's not some dude from youtube and absolutely knows what he's doing. His book The Woodwright's Guide is absolutely wonderful and is not long and covers briefly everything from felling a tree to wood movement to veneering. It may give you some guidance as far as what you want to make or do. Kaiser Schnitzel fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jul 6, 2018 |
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Jul 5, 2018 23:56
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Spring Heeled Jack posted:Sorry but unless you spend all of your free time trolling eBay for auctions, there’s no way to get a Stanley router plane for that price. I consistently saw auctions ending for $100+ of varying quality, which is the main reason I ended up going with the veritas. Truth. I've been looking for a #4 for 6 months and anything that looks decent quality ends up in the $75+ price range for sure. The most useful purchase I've made is a #5 Stanley I bought from a local furniture maker for $120, but it was fully tuned and only needed a cursory sharpen before the first time I used it. I did however find a Stanley #52 spokeshave that I managed to win for $15 and it's been fun adjacent trying to tune it up. If that lot of 15 doesn't shoot up over $200-300 I might bite, but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets pretty expensive. It looks like a lot of work to tune those up, but I'm getting better at that part too and moving from hand sharpening kitchen knives to chisels and plane blades was surprisingly easy. I managed to make a cheapo set of home depot chisels sharp, they're just not any good at holding the edge because they're cheap (and also probably because I was using them on apple wood). In any case, like any other hobby it's going to end up being what works for a particular person. So I listen to advice and then still have to decide for myself what I'm going to try and it usually comes down to budget and what I'm making next. At the end of the day, have fun and don't forget to use your personal protective equipment.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:33
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Another option to note are the woodriver branded planes. They’re from China and probably direct copies of LN planes, but I’ve heard they are of good quality considering. Woodcraft sells them in the US, overseas they have different brand names like Luban.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:40
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Woodriver planes are very good. Functionally every bit as good as LN or Veritas for the normal range of bevel up planes, but they're not really a giant discount comparatively. I'd point out that while handtools are cool and good, the cheapest entry into woodworking/building things is with a $50 circular saw and a $100 battery drill. Start throwing in chisels and planes soon after and the immediate barrier for entry is way lower and doesn't start out with frustration trying to learn body mechanics and sharpening skills.
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Jul 6, 2018 02:45
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The Luban planes here in Australia are significantly cheaper, more than half the price, compared to the original Veritas/Lee Valley versions. Very high quality too. I still managed to get most of my planes from markets, but you do have to know what to look for. Heaps of rubbish out there, and most of it is sold to be used as decorations by idiots who don’t know any better.
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Jul 6, 2018 11:14
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I just bought a laguna 14bx 220V bandsaw new. I bought a new 1/2" blade and mounted it today. The sound is totally different from the 1/4" before, with a cyclic sound and a back-and-forth wobble (rather than side-to-side). Laying it flat on the ground it appears to be otherwise fine. The weld is maybe a bit rough? As in, I can feel it. I can barely even locate the weld on the 1/4" blade but I've also used it quite a bit already. I tensioned it using the tension indicator built in to the saw. Any ideas? edit: a rear guide was making contact as it turns out. Moving it back eliminated the clicking noise. Hums as it should now. However the wobble remains. This is a 1/2" timber wolf blade btw. Not sure if I'm following the 'low tension' instructions on the back of the box correctly or if it matters with the tensioning dial on the bandsaw. 
Kudaros fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 6, 2018 23:52
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Kaiser Schnitzel posted:Forget the lacquer thinner-that might have helped you if this was caused by moisture under the finish as is often the case with white rings, but it looks like the shading lacquer just came off with your air freshener. Get some touch up markers and do your best job coloring within the lines and spray some lacquer over the top of it. Give it 45 min or so between coats of lacquer and scuff sand with your 320 between coats-looks like your'e going to need to build up the finish where it has been stripped off. Finish with sandpaper on a block to level the repair to the existing finish-you're probably looking at at least 5 light coats. Thanks for this info. I went and got a Minwax stain marker that looks pretty close (fruitwood) and applied a little bit. It seems to be going on pretty well so far. I ordered most of the other stuff, save for the lacquer, from Amazon, because it was 99% cheaper than the TrueValue hardware by my house, so once all that comes in, I can continue with the repairs.
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Jul 6, 2018 23:57
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Kudaros posted:I just bought a laguna 14bx 220V bandsaw new. I bought a new 1/2" blade and mounted it today. The sound is totally different from the 1/4" before, with a cyclic sound and a back-and-forth wobble (rather than side-to-side). Laying it flat on the ground it appears to be otherwise fine. The weld is maybe a bit rough? As in, I can feel it. I can barely even locate the weld on the 1/4" blade but I've also used it quite a bit already. Very likely the blade is welded slightly out of straight. Run it on the saw and sight the spine of the blade to see how much it moves. A slight kink in the blade can do the same thing, usually caused when uncoiling it. Timberwolf should take care of you if it is, but if it's only minorly crooked it's totally fine to use. Bandsaws are pretty racketey by nature and a variety if cyclic noises is normal. Also, the tension gauge is probably semi-nonsense and they usually lead to lower than ideal tension. Do the flutter test or get a really good feel for how much pressure it takes to deflect it by a certain amount. Hypnolobster fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 00:48
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I received these vises from my mom that were my grandfather or uncle's. What's the best way to clean them up, sandpaper, WD40 and lots of elbow grease?
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Jul 7, 2018 01:31
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darkspider42 posted:I received these vises from my mom that were my grandfather or uncle's. What's the best way to clean them up, sandpaper, WD40 and lots of elbow grease? Yup, also evaporust and steel wool if you’re willing to spend a bit, or vinegar works too it just takes a bit longer. Both will take most of the rust off. There’s a bunch of info on restoring vises out there. Garagejournal has a bunch of vise happy folks. Falco fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 01:52
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Kudaros posted:I just bought a laguna 14bx 220V bandsaw new. I bought a new 1/2" blade and mounted it today. The sound is totally different from the 1/4" before, with a cyclic sound and a back-and-forth wobble (rather than side-to-side). Laying it flat on the ground it appears to be otherwise fine. The weld is maybe a bit rough? As in, I can feel it. I can barely even locate the weld on the 1/4" blade but I've also used it quite a bit already. darkspider42 posted:I received these vises from my mom that were my grandfather or uncle's. What's the best way to clean them up, sandpaper, WD40 and lots of elbow grease?
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Jul 7, 2018 04:33
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I’m a fan of electrolytic rust removal. All you need is a bucket, a car battery charger, a piece of scrap steel, and some baking soda or other electrolyte. It’s cheap, low effort, and gives great results.
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Jul 7, 2018 11:51
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And you get to pop hydrogen bubbles with fire, if so inclined! That's basically the best part.
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Jul 7, 2018 12:41
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Hypnolobster posted:And you get to pop hydrogen bubbles with fire, if so inclined! That's basically the best part. Oh my God I have been missing out
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Jul 7, 2018 14:15
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ugh paul sellers is back on his bullshit
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Jul 8, 2018 17:52
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This is sort of related to the hand tool discussion, but mostly I want to complain. I started this end-grain cutting board knowing it was going to take some work to flatten it, but I seriously underestimated how hard it would be to remove any significant amount of material.  At the rate I'm going I think I'm looking at about 15 hours and as many sharpenings to get this thing flat. At least it should look cool when it's done.  (The untrimmed end isn't staying like that.)
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Jul 8, 2018 19:34
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Would a belt sander work for that?
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Jul 8, 2018 19:52
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It probably would. I'm sticking with hand tools partly for the challenge and partly because my work space is below someone else's apartment and there's little to no soundproofing in the ceiling/floor. If nothing else, 15 hours is a long time to meditate on learning to saw straight and keep a panel glue-up flat.
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Jul 8, 2018 20:14
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go for a stroll posted:This is sort of related to the hand tool discussion, but mostly I want to complain. I started this end-grain cutting board knowing it was going to take some work to flatten it, but I seriously underestimated how hard it would be to remove any significant amount of material. Use a belt sander and be cautious with it. I started to flatten mine with the veritas sbus and it was a colossal pain in the rear end and caused a bunch of tear out. Belt sander to flatten, random orbital to finish and remove marks.
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Jul 8, 2018 20:17
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Phone posted:Use a belt sander and be cautious with it. I started to flatten mine with the veritas sbus and it was a colossal pain in the rear end and caused a bunch of tear out. Yeah, end grain cutting boards really seem like something made to be done with power tools. At least the finishing part.
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Jul 8, 2018 20:21
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Phone posted:Use a belt sander and be cautious with it. I started to flatten mine with the veritas sbus and it was a colossal pain in the rear end and caused a bunch of tear out. Thanks. Fortunately there are no tearout problems with my bevel-down jack plane, but it's definitely a pain in the rear end. If I can't get one side done today I'm punting and using electricity.
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Jul 8, 2018 20:23
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"Machining" wood like what's necessary for a pixel based cutting board is significantly easier when you involve electrons. My glue up was really flat and pretty good, but it gets more and more difficult as you go along for sure.
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Jul 8, 2018 20:36
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I would feed that through the planer and be done with it in a couple passes.
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Jul 8, 2018 21:02
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Javid posted:I would feed that through the planer and be done with it in a couple passes.
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Jul 8, 2018 21:25
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I'm here for the inevitable "don't (power) plane endgrain unless you're very prepared for the potential consequences" caveat. (if you google, there are massive amounts of discussions about that, but if you're willing to try, a sacrificial board glued to the exit-end of the board and extremely light passes can probably make it possible) If you do end up wanting to flatten it with power tools, a router is $70 at home depot, and a short 3/4" straight bit and sled will make flattening very easy and safe, and can actually remove any twist/warp. Hypnolobster fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jul 8, 2018 |
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Jul 8, 2018 21:47
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Hypnolobster posted:If you do end up wanting to flatten it with power tools, a router is $70 at home depot, and a short 3/4" straight bit and sled will make flattening very easy and safe, and can actually remove any twist/warp. Yeah, I think the router + sled is my bail out option. I don't want to use it all the time, but it's like a table saw in that it can do a lot of super-repetitive work that goes way beyond fun to do by hand. In the meantime I tried my $10 harbor freight scrub plane conversion and it's doing much better than expected.
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Jul 8, 2018 22:04
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