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On the one hand I liked TLJ but on the other I love American Whiggism being shredded through a meme interpretation of Star Wars, please never change threadHalloween Jack posted:I find I can't square Vader's Christ-nature or Kylo's Christianity with them committing atrocities--in some cases seemingly for no reason at all. Can you answer this? You've said some stuff about Vader being concerned with the collective spirit rather than actual individuals' well-being, but...really? That's it? I don't want to put words in SMG's mouth but I don't think they're exactly endorsing orthodox Christian ethics. If I remember correctly God, not humanity, is what fell in Eden and so all the following Christianity stuff is basically a bad thing. But that might not be the exact strain of radical Christianity they're talking about
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Jul 6, 2018 23:40
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Halloween Jack posted:I find I can't square Vader's Christ-nature or Kylo's Christianity with them committing atrocities--in some cases seemingly for no reason at all. Can you answer this? You've said some stuff about Vader being concerned with the collective spirit rather than actual individuals' well-being, but...really? That's it? A quote from the text you referenced earlier may help you here. It’s important to remember Vader stands as a figure of radical imbalance in a universe where under the supposed ideal of balance, injustices are never addressed - rather they’re a key aspect of its ideological coordinates. "Christianity is a miraculous event that disturbs the balance of the One-All. It is the violent intrusion of difference which throws off the rails the balanced circuit of the universe. From this standpoint it would be interesting to approach the ideological ambiguities of a very bad movie, George Lucas's Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace. The film, one of whose few interests resides in the way it endeavors to outline the answer to the question of the origin of evil, How did Darth Vader become Darth Vader? That is to say, How died Anakin Skywalker, this sweet boy, turn into the monstrous instrument of cosmic evil? Two things are here crucial: First, the Christological features of the young Anakin. If you know the movie you know that his mother hints that she became pregnant with him in an immaculate conception. Then we have the ways in which Anakin wins. It clearly echoes the famous chariot race in Ben Hur, this tale of Christ. Second, the fact that he's identified as the one who has the potential to restore the balance of the Force. Now, here's my question: Since the ideological universe of Star Wars is the New Age pagan universe, it is quite consequent that its central figure of evil should echo Christ." As far as the no reason at all aspect, you'd have to give examples from the text in order to work through them, but neither Vader or Kylo Ren is given to wanton slaughter - that is to say the reduction of political or ideological conflicts to "humanitarian disasters" so to speak, should be avoided, because it tends in a way shut down critiques of systemic problems, the ideological underpinnings of the conflicts - "There are heroes on both sides" and so on. brawleh fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 00:09
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Halloween Jack posted:I find I can't square Vader's Christ-nature or Kylo's Christianity with them committing atrocities--in some cases seemingly for no reason at all. Can you answer this? You've said some stuff about Vader being concerned with the collective spirit rather than actual individuals' well-being, but...really? That's it? I suppose I’d first point out that atrocity is a legal term related to warcrimes and such, and I’m not concerned with the legality of the characters’ actions. (Are Vader and Kylo even part of their respective governments’ armed forces?) Instead, my concern is their ethicality. After all, it certainly wasn’t legal to toss the Emperor into a pit. Kylo Ren strives to be ethical, and is one of the only characters to do so. That’s why he’s the closest thing the ST has to a good guy. I don’t support his policy of taking no prisoners (still his biggest failing) and he should have killed Hux on the spot - but he did kill Snoke, so good on him. The one contentious point with Vader, circa ESB, is when he tortures Han - but the weird nuance there is that he did this purely to call Luke in and ultimately save Han from the Empire when Luke was happy to just sit in a swamp and ignore the suffering. Definitely the most ‘problematic’ thing that he does. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 00:19
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J_RBG posted:On the one hand I liked TLJ but on the other I love American Whiggism being shredded through a meme interpretation of Star Wars, please never change thread The Iron Guard were also sincere christians but that didn't stop them doing committing insanely horrible crimes. Religious fundamentalism is generally considered a bad thing exactly because it gives people the moral certainty they need to commit atrocities they otherwise couldn't. Vader & Ren's actions in the service of a fascist state aren't redeemed or justified because they' have contempt for the decadent liberal republic and again at no point is either one of them depicted either in words or action holding any sort of radical leftist ideology. Vader spends most of ESB as a military commander in his trillion spacedollar capital ship and then tries to kidnap his son by freezing him alive in a block of metal so he can be reeducated, Kylo Ren idolises him as a strongman whose big takeaway is 'Vader didn't suppress his empathy enough' and tries to remedy it by successively murdering his immediately family until he's a husk of a man, which is kind of a weird thing to do imo brawleh posted:
Vader kills a room full of people with his laser sword to stop the Rebels discovering the weakness of their nightmare weapon which blows up planets. Kylo Ren orders and participates in the massacre of a village.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:22
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multijoe posted:Vader kills a room full of people with his laser sword to stop the Rebels discovering the weakness of their nightmare weapon which blows up planets. Kylo Ren orders and participates in the massacre of a village. That’s not Vader’s motivation; Vader thinks the Death Star is stupid. He’s preventing Leia from using evidence of the Death Star to empower the Senate to dethrone Palpatine and restore the Republic.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:26
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not Vader’s motivation; Vader thinks the Death Star is stupid. He thinks it is stupid, but also still works for the people who built and use the it over working with libs
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Jul 7, 2018 00:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I suppose I’d first point out that atrocity is a legal term related to warcrimes and such, and I’m not concerned with the legality of the characters’ actions. (Are Vader and Kylo even part of their respective governments’ armed forces?) Instead, my concern is their ethicality. After all, it certainly wasn’t legal to toss the Emperor into a pit. I don't agree with his Bart killing policy...but I do approve of his Selma killing policy.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:29
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The airlock battle in Rogue One was killing enemy soldiers during a battle. However, he did murder a bunch of children.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:31
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multijoe posted:He thinks it is stupid, but also still works for the people who built and use the it over working with libs Tarkin is responsible for the attack on Alderaan. Vader only assists in the attempted bombing of the Rebel base, which I would call a legitimate military target. You are also overlooking Vader’s arc. He changes significantly after Luke blows up the Death Star, and the Vader of ESB is the one I support.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:40
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Jivjov! Does Kylo Ren know that Vader threw Sheev down the endless pit? I was under the assumption that he didn't but apparently one of the new EU things says that, like, it's common knowledge that Vader betrayed Sheev.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:48
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Bongo Bill posted:However, he did murder a bunch of children. Probably crisis actors.
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Jul 7, 2018 00:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Tarkin is responsible for the attack on Alderaan. Vader only assists in the attempted bombing of the Rebel base, which I would call a legitimate military target. Vader was lying to Luke in ESB and didn't flip until the throne room scene. His initial plan is straight up to just imprison Luke in carbonite so he can drag him off and indoctrinate him at his leisure as he was ordered to do so by Sheev, if he actually meant anything about overthrowing the Emperor and ruling the galaxy as father and son he'd have started with that rather than bringing it out after his initial trap failed and he'd finished assaulting Luke. Your reading of Vader relies entirely on taking everything he says in good faith even when his actions strongly imply otherwise, he does nothing but faithfully obey the orders of the Emperor up until the end of RotJ wherein he reverts to the human Anakin Skywalker.
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Jul 7, 2018 01:01
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I think people tend to forget that Vader doesn't really do very much besides plotting to overthrow the Emperor and create a leftist dictatorship. Like, that's basically all he does after A New Hope. Vader's biggest failure is when he, being still too attached to the Empire, relies on his targeting computer instead of trusting the Force. He never makes such a mistake again. Leia was kinda right: Vader is unleashed in ESB. multijoe posted:Vader was lying to Luke in ESB and didn't flip until the throne room scene. Nope. Luke searches his feelings and knows that what Vader says is true.
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Jul 7, 2018 01:04
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Vader harbored ambitions of usurping Palpatine even before he got the mask. The change of heart that took place in the throne room was that he saw something he wanted more than putting his still-technically-alive rear end on the throne.
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Jul 7, 2018 01:08
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Bongo Bill posted:Vader harbored ambitions of usurping Palpatine even before he got the mask. The change of heart that took place in the throne room was that he saw something he wanted more than putting his still-technically-alive rear end on the throne. That's a whole other situation. In Episode 3, Anakin's goal is to make Padme into queen of the Galaxy. Anakin kills all those children almost as a gift to her - which is largely why the horrified Padme commits suicide: as a gently caress-you to Anakin, and a rejection of his offer. Anakin is then killed, and Vader despondently accepts his punishment up until he learns of Luke. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 01:17
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People not thinking Vader is being straight up about a coup d'etat is one of the weirder interpretations I've encountered--and I don't even think Luke was necessarily trying to commit suicide in that scene!
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Jul 7, 2018 01:35
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Right, the Rebels had a copy of the plans to the death star, the village was housing armed resistance members, X-wings and so on - this isn’t to excuse their respective actions but simply to point out they’re apart of political conflicts, military actions of forces at war. So to go further the important question becomes how did these political conflicts come about? After all the Republic ushers in the era of the Empire with thunderous applause - the First Order is seemingly an overwhelmingly popular movement within The New Republic. If the focus is simply upon the symptoms of these conflicts it’s impossible to grapple with the root causes of the injustices that fuel them - the Jedi dogma of restoring balance to the force is one of those root ideological causes. So again this is where Vader standing as a radical figure of imbalance is important. Though Kylo’s story isn’t finished, the question still remains how did he ultimately interpret Vader’s sacrifice and the not so subtle point of contrast here is Luke in TLJ, because he really screwed up big time on that one. brawleh fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 01:35
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Jivjov! Does Kylo Ren know that Vader threw Sheev down the endless pit? I was under the assumption that he didn't but apparently one of the new EU things says that, like, it's common knowledge that Vader betrayed Sheev. While I have no idea if it's established if Ben knows that or not, but he seems like the type to either A) ignore that Vader ever redeemed himself and pretend his grandpa was always a badass Sith Lord, or B) he's take the wrong lesson from it and treat it as Vader rising up to usurp the Emperor.
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Jul 7, 2018 01:45
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porfiria posted:People not thinking Vader is being straight up about a coup d'etat is one of the weirder interpretations I've encountered--and I don't even think Luke was necessarily trying to commit suicide in that scene! After ESB, George Lucas consulted with a child psychologist, who told him children under twelve would automatically conclude Vader was lying. That's why there's a scene where Yoda confirms the "unfortunate" truth, in Episode 6, before Obiwan can spin it.
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Jul 7, 2018 01:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I suppose I’d first point out that atrocity is a legal term related to warcrimes and such, and I’m not concerned with the legality of the characters’ actions. (Are Vader and Kylo even part of their respective governments’ armed forces?) Instead, my concern is their ethicality. After all, it certainly wasn’t legal to toss the Emperor into a pit. One of the more interesting directions for characterizing Kylo in the next film will be his conflict with Hux. For the first time, we see Vader (in spirit) in charge. Does what he wants suit the Imperialists?
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Jul 7, 2018 02:08
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Hodgepodge posted:One of the more interesting directions for characterizing Kylo in the next film will be his conflict with Hux. For the first time, we see Vader (in spirit) in charge. Does what he wants suit the Imperialists? We're given quite a bit of foreshadowing: Hux is directly compared to Luke plotting to kill Kylo in his sleep (and vice-versa), and keeping Hux around shows that Kylo hasn't fully gotten away from Snoke's poorer teachings. ("You wonder why I keep a rabid cur in such a place of power?")
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Jul 7, 2018 02:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's a whole other situation. In Episode 3, Anakin's goal is to make Padme into queen of the Galaxy. Anakin kills all those children almost as a gift to her - which is largely why the horrified Padme commits suicide: as a gently caress-you to Anakin, and a rejection of his offer. By the time Anakin chokes Padme he's already planning to seize power for himself, he was just deludedly convinced himself Padme would stay by his side. He's already talking about how he's going to kill Palpatine and take over even talking about hoe the empire is "his". Killing the Younglings is only a "gift" to her inasmuch as he keeps having these moments where he thinks "If I go just a bit more Dark Side I can protect everything I hold dear" but the trap of the Dark Side is that in the end you have nothing that you hold dear. It's foolish to think that by the time he gets made extra crispy he's anything more than a hate-filled thug who runs on spite. I know you're a troll so I'm arguing against a brick wall, but the man we see in the OT does nothing throughout its runtime but try his best to make other peoples lives as miserable as his until his son convinces him to listen to that last spark of good left inside him. If Vader was a leftist revolutionary he would not spend the entire trilogy trying his hardest to crush every group to the left of Pinochet.
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Jul 7, 2018 04:57
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galagazombie posted:By the time Anakin chokes Padme he's already planning to seize power for himself, he was just deludedly convinced himself Padme would stay by his side. He's already talking about how he's going to kill Palpatine and take over even talking about hoe the empire is "his". Killing the Younglings is only a "gift" to her inasmuch as he keeps having these moments where he thinks "If I go just a bit more Dark Side I can protect everything I hold dear" but the trap of the Dark Side is that in the end you have nothing that you hold dear. It's foolish to think that by the time he gets made extra crispy he's anything more than a hate-filled thug who runs on spite. I know you're a troll so I'm arguing against a brick wall, but the man we see in the OT does nothing throughout its runtime but try his best to make other peoples lives as miserable as his until his son convinces him to listen to that last spark of good left inside him. If Vader was a leftist revolutionary he would not spend the entire trilogy trying his hardest to crush every group to the left of Pinochet. The problem here is that you are not even really interpreting the text but, like, free-associating on the image of a dude in a black cape. So you imagine Vader’s motivation is that he wants people to be unhappy...? In any case, yours is a very bad misreading of the prequels. Anakin fantasized about being a powerless slime, servant to an immortal goddess, then gets an ironic comeuppance when his dream comes true and the immortal goddess turns out to be gay-subtext Sheev: “I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you—I can't breathe. [...] You are in my very soul, tormenting me...what can I do? I will do anything you ask.” Anakin never wanted to lead. He wanted to serve the people he cared about.
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Jul 7, 2018 06:05
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Vader isn't evil because he wears black. He's evil because of his actions. He spends the whole OT killing people with one-liners and taunting people suffering in situations he put them in. He actively helps in the creation and cover-up of an Illegal even by the Empires standards genocide machine that he only "dislikes" because its ability to murder is too banal for his sensibilities. He talks with relish of the death of a man who was his best friend who tried to help him even as he saw him kill whimpering children and try to strangle his wife. What Anakin always wanted the to be able to protect the things he cared about like his mother, the other defenseless slaves, Padme, etc. He originally desires power because he thinks it will allow him to achieve this goal. The death of his mother is arguably what sets him on the path of no-return as seen in his breakdown immediately after in the garage where he declares his intent to become so all-powerful he will defeat even death. At Mustafar he even declares to Padme that all his actions will allow him to prevent his mothers death from ever repeating, namely to her. By RotS he's become unhinged enough that worries about yet more people close to him dying have driven him right into the arms of the man who claims to have the ability to live forever. The moment Palpatine told the story of Plageius was the exact moment Anakin truly fell even if he nor anyone else realized it. Because from that moment he was willing to do anything to gain this power for himself. By the time he's realized it was all a lie and Sidious never knew how to keep people from dying he's already destroyed everything he cared about and is purely driven forward by his hate for the things he blames his suffering on.
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Jul 7, 2018 10:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Vader initially tries to trap Luke in carbonite, skipping any chance for dialogue or ideological change so he can just deliver him straight to the Emperor. When this fails he attacks Luke and maims him, when Luke is kneeling in defeat he threatens to murder him if he doesn't join with him. At no point in this film or any other does Vader talk about : galactic injustice, corrupt liberal democracy, freeing slaves, radical left christianity or ending the Emperor's tyranny and given his duplicity in ESB and his continued subservience to the Emperor in RotJ taking his speech about overthrowing the Emperor at face value and not a lie to convince a valuable asset to defect ('he will join us or die') is remarkably credulous. The 'search your feelings' line explicitly refers to Luke being his son (and that's not a metaphor, RotS explicitly depicts Luke & Leia being the biological children of Anakin & Padme), nothing in ESB indicates Vader is anything other than a willing disciple of Satan who intends to either induct his son in Satanism, or failing that, murder him.
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Jul 7, 2018 10:41
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anakin and padme never gently caress on screen and rots extensively focuses on anakin's paranoia over padme cheating with obi-wan 
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Jul 7, 2018 11:00
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ungulateman posted:anakin and padme never gently caress on screen and rots extensively focuses on anakin's paranoia over padme cheating with obi-wan Tragically they would have all been happy with a three way but can't get past their prejudices and insecurities.
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Jul 7, 2018 11:18
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multijoe posted:Vader initially tries to trap Luke in carbonite, skipping any chance for dialogue or ideological change so he can just deliver him straight to the Emperor. When this fails he attacks Luke and maims him, when Luke is kneeling in defeat he threatens to murder him if he doesn't join with him. At no point in this film or any other does Vader talk about : galactic injustice, corrupt liberal democracy, freeing slaves, radical left christianity or ending the Emperor's tyranny and given his duplicity in ESB and his continued subservience to the Emperor in RotJ taking his speech about overthrowing the Emperor at face value and not a lie to convince a valuable asset to defect ('he will join us or die') is remarkably credulous. The fight between Luke and Vader, including the lead up before it, is an explicit ideological conflict between the Jedi teaching of detachment is forbid, possession is forbid and love - Vader is confronting Yoda and Obi-Wan’s teachings with terrifying truths. This is important because you have the child Anakin’s dream of coming back to free the slaves before he is taught this learned detachment born from the Jedi teachings centered around this idea of The One who will bring balance to the Force. They were trying to train Luke to fill this role by having him kill Vader. brawleh fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 14:08
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galagazombie posted:Vader isn't evil because he wears black. He's evil because of his actions. He spends the whole OT killing people with one-liners and taunting people suffering in situations he put them in. He actively helps in the creation and cover-up of an Illegal even by the Empires standards genocide machine that he only "dislikes" because its ability to murder is too banal for his sensibilities. He talks with relish of the death of a man who was his best friend who tried to help him even as he saw him kill whimpering children and try to strangle his wife. It’s good that you’ve corrected your interpretation of the prequels, but your reading of OT is again philosophically incoherent. All the characters in Star Wars kill people, with the possible exception of C3PO v2 (C3PO v1, you might recall, had some strong opinions on “Jedi dogs”). So your objection with Vader is that he secretly enjoys making you unhappy - that he is effectively ‘trolling’ you. Darth Vader is not secretly trolling you. multijoe posted:At no point in this film or any other does Vader talk about : galactic injustice, corrupt liberal democracy, freeing slaves, radical left christianity or ending the Emperor's tyranny and given his duplicity in ESB and his continued subservience to the Emperor in RotJ taking his speech about overthrowing the Emperor at face value and not a lie to convince a valuable asset to defect ('he will join us or die') is remarkably credulous. Characters rarely patiently exposit their motivations or self-label their politics, which is why it’s necessary to read the films. Lando never says that he is a libertarian, for example. Also, we are not shown that Leia in Episode 6 is the same as the baby in Episode 3. The entire ‘twist’ is highly suspicious, and it seems like Obiwan is speaking metaphorically. “Luke’s twin sister” can be read as referring to Leia’s transition into a guerilla fighter, or it can be read as Obiwan’s assertion that Leia was the true hero to restore the Republic all along. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 16:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Your reading of the OT at some point left the realm of subtext and metaphor and became a secret, hidden meaning of the sort you normally disdain.
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Jul 7, 2018 22:19
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Hodgepodge posted:Your reading of the OT at some point left the realm of subtext and metaphor and became a secret, hidden meaning of the sort you normally disdain. He usually does that.
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Jul 7, 2018 22:21
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Presuably Rey will be revealed as Luke's real sister in Episode IX - she was taken and frozen in stasis immediately after birth, while Leia was an impostor substituted for her, and then Rey was unfrozen about 20 years before the events of TFA, allowed to age for a few years until she had vague memories of a family and deposited on Jakku. It's the long con. Exactly the sort of thing Abrams would go for.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
I understand reading a text, but you're just flat out interpreting things which aren't there and disregarding clearly stated plot points in order to make your case. Literally the only time Vader goes against the will of the Emperor is when he chucks him down the pit at the end of RotJ. Everything he does in ESB is consistent with taking Luke by hook or by crook to meet with the Emperor and become a Sith, most importantly his initial plan to freeze Luke in carbonite as if he actually wanted to confront and recruit Luke his plan one wouldn't be to completely immobilise him to drag him off to his fate in stasis. This then leads to RotJ where Vader is again a loyal agent of the Emperor and continues in his mission to bring Luke before the Emperor and turn him to the Dark Side. Absolutely nothing he does, even if you squint really hard, indicates he's actually plotting to overthrow the Emperor outside of that one disingenuous line. Similarly, your suggestion that the Leia in the OT is not the same one born in the PT is an incredible reach. We see explicitly Padme giving birth to twins and Leia being sent off to be raised by Bail Organa, the senator for Alderaan Leia takes her namesake from in the OT, the continuity between PT & OT Leia is inarguable. Hodgepodge posted:Your reading of the OT at some point left the realm of subtext and metaphor and became a secret, hidden meaning of the sort you normally disdain. Have to agree with this honestly, I'm pretty much on board with your take on the PT but you're just pulling stuff out of thin air here
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Jul 8, 2018 00:07
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multijoe posted:Similarly, your suggestion that the Leia in the OT is not the same one born in the PT is an incredible reach. We see explicitly Padme giving birth to twins and Leia being sent off to be raised by Bail Organa, the senator for Alderaan Leia takes her namesake from in the OT, the continuity between PT & OT Leia is inarguable. We see her being born, and we see Bail bring a baby to Alderaan, but we don't see what happens in between.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:17
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Hodgepodge posted:Your reading of the OT at some point left the realm of subtext and metaphor and became a secret, hidden meaning of the sort you normally disdain. It’s not a secret meaning. It’s as basic as how nuns are referred to as sisters. There is a very clear distinction between Luke’s biological father (the actual Anakin), Luke’s true father (Darth Vader), and Luke’s ‘true from a certain point of view’ father (the ‘legendary’ Anakin who never actually existed and was invented by Obiwan). In this same way, we have three different Interpretations of Leia: First, we have the biological sister, the baby we see literally born onscreen who shares the same midichlorians and is powerful because of midichlorians. Second, you have the ‘legendary’ sister who is suddenly announced by Obiwan’s ghost. This legendary sister is The Next Hope, the backup heir to Anakin’s mythic legacy - a new Skywalker capable of killing Vader and saving the Republic. Things get weird here because Luke and Leia are just like “somehow I've always known!” But what if this is a prophecy that misread, could have been? After all, Yoda’s talk about “another” is clearly referring to Vader himself. What if Luke’s belief in a twin sister is only true from a certain point of view? Recall here that Episode 6 comes before Episode 3. There is a huge ambiguity at this point in the narrative: “Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. ... by the way, you and Leia are totally related.” This is where we get the third option: the true sister - a sister in Christ, i.e. in Vader. This is the redemptive interpretation of Episode 6’s halfassed twist, and which fits best with the themes. After all, Vader - the true father - confirms that he has a second child, before reverting to Anakin. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jul 8, 2018 |
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Jul 8, 2018 00:28
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We don't really know it's the same guy in the Vader suit in every film.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It’s not a secret meaning. It’s as basic as how nuns are referred to as sisters. A voluminous shitposter such as yourself should be able to rein in his impulse to party hard to a greater extent than this. Disappointing
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Jul 8, 2018 00:33
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RBA Starblade posted:We don't really know it's the same guy in the Vader suit in every film. Remember that, in the alternate ending, Luke's father was going to be Chewbacca.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:42
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The Dread Pirate Vader
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Jul 8, 2018 01:05
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RBA Starblade posted:We don't really know it's the same guy in the Vader suit in every film. it's time for smg to close the loop by referring to him as "Vaders" from now on
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Jul 8, 2018 01:11
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