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Pick posted:Look, I'm actually not that into fighting, there's a lot to like about DS9 but it's not a crime to dislike an episode or a performance in it. I can see what the episode is trying to do, and support what it's trying to do, I just don't think it effectively pulled it off for two reasons: Without these two “gimmicks” you’d lose one of the central pillars of the story, in that Benny/Sisko can no longer tell which reality is “real”.
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Jul 7, 2018 20:55
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Pick is a female
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Jul 7, 2018 21:09
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Pick is a female 
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Jul 7, 2018 21:12
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Pick posted:Dude the entire episode is sucking ds9’s dick in particular [...] t’s appallingly vain to the extent of undercutting itself. Pick posted:1. The script is literally DS9, I think this irreparably weakens it. Self-reference can definitely damage a good story by making its writers seem vain, so I understand the complaint. I never got that from this episode, though. It's just about sci-fi writing in general; maybe at worst, it's about sci-fi writers in general patting themselves on the back for their progressiveness and the importance of their role in society as subversives. But in my book, it references station DS9 and its characters just because it's a reality-bending episode and DS9 happens to be the show it is taking place in.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:15
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Drink-Mix Man posted:Self-reference can definitely damage a good story by making its writers seem vain, so I understand the complaint. I never got that from this episode, though. It's just about sci-fi writing in general; maybe at worst, it's about sci-fi writers in general patting themselves on the back for their progressiveness and the importance of their role in society as subversives. But in my book, it references station DS9 and its characters just because it's a reality-bending episode and DS9 happens to be the show it is taking place in. Well fair enough if you don't think it's an issue, it's my biggest issue but that's completely a matter of taste. I mean, I generally don't like self-referential stuff.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:16
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Would it bother you more or less to learn that O'Brien was an Asimov stand-in for that episode
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Jul 7, 2018 21:22
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Tighclops posted:Would it bother you more or less to learn that O'Brien was an Asimov stand-in for that episode Totally neutral, I do really like Asimov though.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:23
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I'm trying to imagine this episode being written where Benny is writing some rando sci-fi tale not about the station, and also going out of its way to not feature any of the makeup characters, and maybe it would still be good, but I also feel like you could end up with a sense of "what does this have to do with anything?" along the lines of that "11:59" episode of Voyager. (Though that episode had other problems, too.)
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Jul 7, 2018 21:27
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I'm trying to imagine this episode being written where Benny is writing some rando sci-fi tale not about the station, and also going out of its way to not feature any of the makeup characters, and maybe it would still be good, but I also feel like you could end up with a sense of "what does this have to do with anything?" along the lines of that "11:59" episode of Voyager. (Though that episode had other problems, too.) Totally but I'd just tell the audience to go gently caress themselves I guess  I mean there are episodes like that which are very discrete from the rest of the show's content and I think that's fine. It would be more of a character exploration and conceptualization episode. If there is reference to DS9, I'd like it to be background world events that echo events we see unfolding in DS9. Like I don't remember the exact year the episode is in, but like in 1959 the Dalai Lama took flight and no one has to be like "HEY BENNY DID U KNOW" but to have it on newspapers in the background or something, I could see that gimmick being interesting if it's handled carefully. One of my favorite late-season episodes of DS9 is the one with the senile Klingon, which honestly has nothing to do with anything aside from being an episode about senility and elder issues. e: why am I even pretending I don't know that episode is about Kor. Pick fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 7, 2018 |
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Jul 7, 2018 21:28
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I remember reading an interview where they talked about possibly ending DS9 with a shot of Benny standing outside the Paramount lot with a script that said "Star Trek" or "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" in his hands. Now THAT would have been egregious auto-fellatio.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:34
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I remember reading an interview where they talked about possibly ending DS9 with a shot of Benny standing outside the Paramount lot with a script that said "Star Trek" or "Star Trek: Deep Space 9" in his hands. Now THAT would have been egregious auto-fellatio. I am aware of that and it probably colors my view on it also.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:36
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That's just a guy who pitches it in the room, they talk about it for a couple minutes and decide "nah". That means it was an idea they discussed, not something they thought would have been the best mind blowing ending ever.
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Jul 7, 2018 21:44
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"We have this other script. Called Voyager.........."
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Jul 7, 2018 21:46
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happyhippy posted:"We have this other script. Called Voyager.........." lmao if the last scene were Benny walking up to paramount with a script for Star Trek Voyager i would take it all back
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Jul 7, 2018 21:47
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a follow-up where he finally gets the script sold but they had to add sexy gel decontamination scenes and waterpolo
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Jul 7, 2018 21:56
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grabs walt disney by the shoulder, stares him straight in the eye, and hands him "The Black Hole"
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Jul 7, 2018 22:00
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Keiko's main problem as a character is she almost entirely exists only to make O'Brien's life miserable. Anything he brings up, she will almost inevitably take the opposite stance on or just get pissy in general with him to be difficult. Agreed. Jake easily could have turned out the same way; just occasionally being a personal problem for Sisko. But early on we see some scenes with Jake and Nog doing stuff, we don't just see the aftermath where they are in trouble. They get a few episodes where they have the B plot. Then in season 3 he gets that internship with O'brian, and we see some scenes of the 2 of them doing stuff. Jake gets to be a real character with on-screen relationships besides his dad. Keiko is rarely seen that way. She gets a couple scenes in the school with Jake and Nog. She doesn't make friends with any of the other named characters. She's a competent federation-trained scientist herself, but they never pull on her expertise for any botany or biology related problems. She might as well be the federation's finest creator of macrame owls and crochet potholders for all her scientific expertise ever maters. Actually, being a useless artist would probably have been better, then she could have exhibitions and give people awkward gifts. 
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Jul 7, 2018 22:42
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Jadzia, Sisko and Keiko are the worst parts of DS9. Well them and space Hillary. Never thought much about it though, I just skip over their bits.
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Jul 7, 2018 23:23
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Admitting to Hating sisko makes you all easy to not take seriously
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Jul 8, 2018 00:20
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Sisko is great. If you don't like Sisko you are dumb. If you want to dislike anything about DS9, Jadzia was boring, Keiko spends too much time whining, and every Bajoran except Kira is dumb as a rock.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:32
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Keiko is a totally normal person and it's not her fault that the cool stuff she does is offscreen.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:34
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I would probably need to rewatch TNG to be sure but it always seemed like TNG had a weird problem with Keiko but on DS9 she’s fine.
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Jul 8, 2018 00:48
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Hell Bashir calls O'Brien out specifically for not caring or writing about these human struggles. He calls him A robot himself, not because he doesn't like Bennys story but entirely because he doesn't seemed concerned with the struggle surrounding it. Every character in that is representing a 50s sci-fi author. Benny/Sisko is Samuel Delaney Macklin/O'Brien is Isaac Asimov Rossoff/Quark is Harlan Ellison Eaton/Kira is C. L. Moore Julius/Bashir is Henry Kuttner Pabst/Odo is John Campbell Incidentally, in real life a magazine managed by Campbell rejected a story by Delaney specifically because it had an African-American protagonist...
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Jul 8, 2018 01:02
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Mulaney Power Move posted:Pick is a female HOO MON FEE MALE
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Jul 8, 2018 01:06
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I love early episodes like A Man Alone where the actors don't know what they're supposed to sound like yet. Odo sounds so weird. And Rom!
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Jul 8, 2018 01:49
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Jadzia, Sisko and Keiko are the worst parts of DS9. Well them and space Hillary. Never thought much about it though, I just skip over their bits. Kai Winn is great because she's space Trump. She thinks she's much more clever than she is and EVERYONE can talk circles around her when she tries subtle undertones. Absolutely no-one was putting up with her poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2018 02:05
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Kai Winn is super frustrating to watch, which is the point. As a character and a member of the universe she’s great. She makes sense to be there and gets an audience reaction without being at all hyperbolic.
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Jul 8, 2018 02:22
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Cake Smashing Boob posted:Jadzia, Sisko and Keiko are the worst parts of DS9. Well them and space Hillary. Never thought much about it though, I just skip over their bits. 
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Jul 8, 2018 02:24
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Bajor loving sucks since it's planet of the space hillary-ies
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Jul 8, 2018 02:25
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That completely fails to encapsulate all the many, many other reasons Bajor sucks
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Jul 8, 2018 02:28
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Reason Bajor Sucks #432: Despite being billed as a highly experienced force of Guerrilla Warfare experts and having a large security contingent on DS9, every time an infant sneezes their corpses are piled three feet deep in every corridor.
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Jul 8, 2018 02:33
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That's the problem when every person of influence in the government is a former terrorist. Terrorists are real good at destroying infrastructure, but aren't known for their ability to maintain it. All the people who know how to maintain poo poo are now outcasts for having been collaborators.
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Jul 8, 2018 02:36
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Rectal Death Adept posted:Reason Bajor Sucks #432: Despite being billed as a highly experienced force of Guerrilla Warfare experts and having a large security contingent on DS9, every time an infant sneezes their corpses are piled three feet deep in every corridor. 
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Jul 8, 2018 02:38
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Anyway, I do think DS9 is a good example of how much an actor can bring to a role, or how much a role can hamstring an actor. Overall, I'd say that DS9 does have a high proportion of strong actors, although they are not evenly distributed, and don't necessarily get roles they can optimize. BUT THAT SAID Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn, that is, Winn Adami, is phenomenal. Which, you know, you'd expect from a "Best Actress" Oscar and BAFTA winner. (I'm sure it's no news to anyone who posts here, but in case anyone missed it somehow, she was Nurse Ratched). It's easy to say "booo Kai Winn is garbage" but that's conflating how you'd feel about having to interact with her as a person and the effectiveness of her character in its universe, and furthermore how well Fletcher executed her performance. Kai Winn is a self-interested viper who has a mistaken impression of her own competence, but that totally works for her role as a Bajoran spiritual leader and makes her an effective antagonist. And that's not an antagonist in the sense of being evil, but someone who is often a hurdle for the protagonists. I think the inflection is always solid--it's someone who is trying to be sneaky and cunning and just not really pulling it off, because she's trying to apply a somewhat primitive and provincial political approach, and that isn't effective when interacting with Federation politics. She accurately comes across as trying to keep her calm but covering a lot of entitled frustration. She's also not completely wrong, and many of her rationales are totally fair. Kira does a decent job defending her during one scene, where she explains that Kai Winn has worked her entire life to achieve something incredible, and it is totally and constantly upstaged by some rando from some entirely different part of the galaxy who does not care about being a religious figure or even want it. Kai Winn probably knows she shouldn't envy this, but who wouldn't? She had to suffer through the occupation (I'm trying to remember offhand but I think she was jailed/tortured as well) and maintain her faith and purpose, and she comes out on the other end, and then gets forever dunked on by Found Wormhole Guy. Does this make Kai Winn someone you'd want around? No, but she makes sense in the context of her universe and has a good case for the antagonistic role she plays. And whatever her actress is like in real life? I couldn't make a guess, because every second she is onscreen, she is selling Kai Winn at 100%. I can't find anything to complain about with respect to this character, aside from where Bajor taken as a whole feels like a misstep. Fletcher nailed it, and if I had the power to go back and advise the actress to do anything differently, I literally would have no recommendations to improve her performance. There are issues in how she's written--that's certainly not perfect--but by the overall standards of the show, that's not bad either, especially considering how other characters play off her, which tends to come across as credible. IT WOULD BE NICE if they'd given her other meaningful Bajoran characters to play off of in the Bajoran political side of things, but none of those characters materialized for whatever reason.
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Jul 8, 2018 02:59
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Pick posted:IT WOULD BE NICE if they'd given her other meaningful Bajoran characters to play off of in the Bajoran political side of things, but none of those characters materialized for whatever reason. Yeah, I had high hopes for the guy who was just a gently caress up but everyone thought he was the greatest general who ever lived. Then he died, lol.
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Jul 8, 2018 03:06
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And in a similar vein, I think that Rosalind Chao did a solid performance as Keiko. The character is hard for a lot of people to like, but a huge function of that is that the writers never put her in a position where she'd show off her good side. She doesn't get to be the station's smart and informed botanist, even when it would have made sense for her to be there. (For example, she could have been the one to discover the effects of the... fungus or whatever on Empok Nor). She gets relegated to O'Brien's wife and a schoolteacher (and the latter is only temporary). And the show kind of rides on conflict, so she's often the person who's on the opposite side of something as O'Brien, who is the oft-crapped-upon easygoing everyman. He's inherently a character type that the audience will sympathize with, and he is likely going to come across well in relationship disputes. I think they actually do a pretty good job of balancing when and how each one is right, but it's hard to sell that when it's a tertiary character caviling to a primary. "I'm miserable here and it sucks" makes sense for a botanist on a remote space station full of a handful of dumb assholes. They seem like a normal couple, and I think Chao's performance is totally credible. I don't think it's defining or remarkably good, but it is entirely satisfactory and does what it's meant to do: present Keiko as a real person. She boffs a few lines here and there but overall I think people are unnecessarily hard on her character and her performance. I'd go back to "entirely satisfactory" for both the character and actress, and that's not meant as a dig, and in fact that's quite a bit better than some others.
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Jul 8, 2018 03:10
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Yes Yes
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Jul 8, 2018 03:10
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Also Gul Dukat was actually the best space dictator in terms of charisma and realism. When you read up on leaders like Saddam they had a natural charisma which made people believe in him and also the higher level idealogical cause. There's a great book on Saddam's prison life in which how over time his charisma and personality started to win over guards so much that they eventually did favors for him.
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Jul 8, 2018 03:13
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Keiko is unlikable and underused, but the actress sells her. She was under-written as a talented but nagging wife objectified as little more than another one of obrien's suffering totems.
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Jul 8, 2018 03:19
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Still rewatching DS9, and I quite like the episode Explorers. It's a good fun father-and-son trip in a solar sailship, and I love the end with Gul Dukat telling them "oh hey, look we COINCIDENTALLY suddenly found an archaelogical ruin of a Bajoran's solar-sail ship. What. Luck." while clearly seething in anger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCyowQs8dEA
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Jul 8, 2018 03:23
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