|
Thanks, I finally got around to sleeving this up but don't quite know what other decks to expect tomorrow. If I end up enjoying the deck enough at FNM I'll actually pre-order the new Spirits instead of just waiting to pick them up once M19 releases 
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 04:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 16:44 |
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:This reminds me actually, I've never quite understood why Swan Song doesn't see more play. 2/2 bird is a real drawback if neither player is trying to just win that turn
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 05:30
|
|
|
what does unified will (conditionally) hit that negate doesn't? wurmcoil is all I can think of
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 19:08
|
|
|
Johnny Five-Jaces posted:what does unified will (conditionally) hit that negate doesn't? wurmcoil is all I can think of I thought the same exact thing as you until I really dug deep and found the answer: It's World Breaker. That's it. Unified Will isn't good. Play Negates.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 19:13
|
|
|
There's also Reality Smasher, though really with Eldrazi decks it's like 50/50 you'll be able to counter the spell anyways. Bedlam Reveler is also a card you'd rather not let resolve, though against Pyro there's no guarantee that you'll have more creatures. Basically there's a couple of things it (could) work on that Negate doesn't but I'm not convinced it's worth the risk.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
Primeval titan was a big one not too long ago, but RG scapeshift seems to have fallen off lately.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 19:55
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:Unified Will is your best bet, Tron/Control kinda eat the lunch of a deck like this Spirits is wildly favored against control. Tron is harder to deal with though, you basically have to be the insanely aggressive deck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 19:58
|
|
|
Tron is the only matchup where I think you could even argue that Unified Will is better. Against Pyro, the odds that you'll have any creatures, let alone more than them are low. Even against Tron if you don't have a turn 1 creature Unified Will can be too slow. O-Stone, Karn, and Wurmcoil can all come down on turn 3 and make you look dumb for having a Unified Will where Negate takes care of 2 of them. And obviously an O-Stone in play also invalidates Unified Will.Mezzanon posted:Spirits is wildly favored against control. Control is a joke, Tron is slightly favorable. Ugin is pretty much the only card you lose to from Tron, but man do you lose to it hard. I'm not entirely sure of the logic of wanting Unified Will over Negate against control. Negate is pretty much the exact same card except with no conditionality.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 20:10
|
|
|
Wurmcoil is also pretty beatable for a flying beatdown deck that maindecks 4x Path and 4x a creature that can jump in front of Wurmcoil and then kill itself to deny lifelink. EDIT: if you get a decent draw on the play they can slam a T3 Wurmcoil and then just die anyways because it doesn't stabilize against evasion tribal. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
Mezzanon posted:Spirits is wildly favored against control. How does it beat 4 Terminus Control?
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 21:35
|
|
|
All the examples you guys are using in this debate are 4 CMC or more, so tell me why I shouldn't put Disdainful Stroke in that spot instead.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 21:54
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:How does it beat 4 Terminus Control? Terminus is extremely good against spirits if you can miracle it. But you're relying on a specific card to win a matchup that's fundamentally hard in a metagame clock sense (control vs. aggro-control).
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:All the examples you guys are using in this debate are 4 CMC or more, so tell me why I shouldn't put Disdainful Stroke in that spot instead. goblin lore, search for azcanta, lotus bloom, cathartic reunion, engineered explosives, living end i know that spell queller hits them too but i think it is good having six of that effect in your no cantrip, no selection deck, especially one that kills the spell for good e: one more, just for you: glimpse the unthinkable
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 00:35
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:All the examples you guys are using in this debate are 4 CMC or more, so tell me why I shouldn't put Disdainful Stroke in that spot instead. The things other people have said, Liliana, frankly a whole shitload of miscellaneous combo pieces that are <3 mana. Like the main deck that plays creatures big enough to get hit by D-Stroke is Tron and half the time they're gonna be coming off a cavern anyways. EDIT: I guess also Grixis and Pyromancer Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Jul 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 02:25
|
|
|
1st Spirits FNM trip report: 2-1 vs Jund (I scooped too early game 1, really strong draw + RIP game 2, 2x Drogskol game 3 and had enough flash-in blockers to outrun Ravine), 2-1 vs Skred (I ran out of gas game 1, hit 2x CoCo and Blessed Alliance'd a Stormbreath game 2, ground out with fliers and Gavony game 3), then 2-0'd the mirror (opponent mulled to 3 vs my nut Hierarch->Geist draw game 1, won at 1 life game 2 when my opponent didn't realize that Drogskol doesn't give Geist flying), first time at X-0 in at least a year, A+ would play tribal fliers again. The Spirits guy in the last round has been on the deck for a while and isn't sure that he's going to run Supreme Phantom, as he doesn't think that having extra pump is all that necessary for the tempo strategy. He's running 3x Phantasmal Image and says that he likes having them as Drogskol Captains 5-7, though that seems a little shaky to me since you need to keep a Captain in play. He was running 22 lands with 1x each of Cavern, Township, and Canopy as his "utility lands". If he were to run Phantoms he said he'd cut two Image and a Geist (currently running 4). He boarded in 1 Worship, 2 EE and 1 Rhox War Monk for the mirror. Personally, 22 lands felt like a lot as I easily hit 7+ lands in half of my games, even with a few fetchlands cracked per game. I may cut one of my two Townships to make room for Supreme Phantom but Township was awesome when the game went long. Other than that, the whole deck felt loving rad. It's really nice to have so many flash cards and I definitely got the Skred player with Rattlechain's "give Spirits flash" clause. I felt bad after the very first game because I had the jitters and my opponent pointed out that I still had an out when I scooped (I was dead on the ground next turn but could've swung him down to 3 in the air next turn, then potentially have his Confidant kill him), but I bounced back mentally and had a ton of fun with the deck after that. I guess I'm on the Spirits crew now :justghost: E: I went with Negates but I don't think I even brought them in. Saw Monoblack Devotion, Humans, D&T, and Merfolk in the room. C-Euro fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jul 7, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 03:22
|
|
|
C-Euro posted:I guess I'm on the Spirits crew now :justghost: 
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 03:29
|
|
|
I like that smiley. I disagree with this photo though. And since I am old now, the clapping hands for emphasis thing confuses and enrages me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
Mezzanon posted:And since I am old now, the clapping hands for emphasis thing confuses and enrages me.  
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
Mezzanon posted:I disagree with this photo though. And since I am old now, the clapping hands for emphasis thing confuses and enrages me. I'll admit that Geist felt a little awkward against Skred when I was staring down a Stormbreath Dragon and Eternal Scourge with no Exalted or lord effects, but every other time he felt great. I got to go turn 2 Rattlechains -> holding up mana after my turn 3 to either counter something with Queller or flash in Geist on the end step for the beefy crack-back, and it felt awesome. Running four copies like my Bant Spirits opponent did last night seems wrong though, unless you're purposefully running him into larger creatures on the other side.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
uninverted posted:Terminus is extremely good against spirits if you can miracle it. But you're relying on a specific card to win a matchup that's fundamentally hard in a metagame clock sense (control vs. aggro-control). Bant Spirits is an aggro deck, not an aggro control deck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
Tempo IS aggro control.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
suicidesteve posted:Tempo IS aggro control. Yes sir, that's why I called it an aggro deck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 7, 2018 20:24
|
|
|
Sampatrick posted:Yes sir, that's why I called it an aggro deck. If you take humans as the leading example of what it takes to be an aggro creature deck in modern, having control elements is a must.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2018 00:50
|
|
|
Edit: nm
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2018 03:53
|
|
|
jassi007 posted:If you take humans as the leading example of what it takes to be an aggro creature deck in modern, having control elements is a must. I mean, if your argument is that every aggro deck that has any control elements is an aggro-control deck, then sure. That's a meaningless definition but you can definitely define it that way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2018 19:20
|
|
|
Sampatrick posted:I mean, if your argument is that every aggro deck that has any control elements is an aggro-control deck, then sure. That's a meaningless definition but you can definitely define it that way. I think that is silly but feel free. I wouldn't call naya zoo with some bolts and/or paths aggro-control. But a deck that attacks the hand or specific cards is certainly a deck that is aiming to, in a limited way, control the game while also threatening to beat down. Basically aggro without utility creatures that can be a disruptive element to your opponents game plan while furthering your own is a no go anymore. Also the more specific the disruptive element, like Reclamation Sage, the worse it is imo. Broad answers like thalia, meddling mage, and kitesail freebooter are great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2018 22:42
|
|
|
jassi007 posted:Basically aggro without utility creatures that can be a disruptive element to your opponents game plan while furthering your own is a no go anymore. Minor nitpick, but I don't think 8 Whack has any utility creatures and it seems to do well enough. But I would say it's the exception to the rule.
|
|
#
?
Jul 8, 2018 23:13
|
|
|
jassi007 posted:I think that is silly but feel free. I wouldn't call naya zoo with some bolts and/or paths aggro-control. But a deck that attacks the hand or specific cards is certainly a deck that is aiming to, in a limited way, control the game while also threatening to beat down. Basically aggro without utility creatures that can be a disruptive element to your opponents game plan while furthering your own is a no go anymore. Also the more specific the disruptive element, like Reclamation Sage, the worse it is imo. Broad answers like thalia, meddling mage, and kitesail freebooter are great. Do you also think that the mono-Red decks in Standard are aggro-control decks because if so, honestly what isn't an aggro-control deck?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 00:03
|
|
|
Sampatrick posted:Do you also think that the mono-Red decks in Standard are aggro-control decks because if so, honestly what isn't an aggro-control deck? I have no idea what any deck in standard consists of. Ask me about pauper or modern.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 00:19
|
|
|
Playing some number of threats and then holding up a counter for the opponent's sweeper, combo kill or 4-drop stabilizing creature is what aggro-control does, and that's what every spirits win looks like (besides the geist nut-draws). It also loses to real aggro decks and beats real control decks. I don't know what criteria you could have in mind that spirits doesn't meet.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 00:30
|
|
|
I think honestly this argument is shifting, my point was "to be aggro and be good in modern, you must have control elements." New spirits has several control elements, but not as good as humans because they're a bit more narrow all said.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 00:39
|
|
|
uninverted posted:Playing some number of threats and then holding up a counter for the opponent's sweeper, combo kill or 4-drop stabilizing creature is what aggro-control does, and that's what every spirits win looks like (besides the geist nut-draws). It also loses to real aggro decks and beats real control decks. I don't know what criteria you could have in mind that spirits doesn't meet. No, that's what a Zoo deck does. Deploying threats and then dealing with whatever your opponent is doing (for Zoo this is with Qasali Pridemage and Path) is the classic Zoo strategy. The aggro-control strategy is distinct because it is based around being able to grind card advantage or present a clock, not because it presents a clock and then protects it. Classic RUG Delver isn't an aggro-control deck, in the words of PVDDR, because it always wants to attack. The core element of aggro-control is that it can shift gears, not that it lands a threat and then protects it. Humans isn't aggro-control because it can't play a long game. The defining characteristic of aggro-control is that it can play both a long game from the control position and also a shorter game from the beatdown position equally well. shades of blue fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 9, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:02
|
|
|
There's definitely a spectrum, where you have naya zoo at one end, RUG delver a little further out, and grixis delver past that. Spirits is more like RUG delver than either of the other two. Call it "disruptive aggro" instead of "aggro-control" maybe, but it's seriously misleading to just call it an aggro deck.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:11
|
|
|
I don't see why it is. It's fine to call Jeskai Control just a Control deck instead of a Control deck with some burn elements, it's also fine to call KCI a Combo deck rather than a Combo deck with some control elements, it's perfectly fine to also call Humans and Spirits Aggro decks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:45
|
|
|
Sampatrick posted:I don't see why it is. It's fine to call Jeskai Control just a Control deck instead of a Control deck with some burn elements, it's also fine to call KCI a Combo deck rather than a Combo deck with some control elements, it's perfectly fine to also call Humans and Spirits Aggro decks. Its probably because some people associate aggro decks with new players and view it as a pejorative. They cant take their e-honor being besmirched by changing the name of the deck they play. I also dont know whats wrong with calling them tempo decks either, since that's basically what they are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:48
|
|
|
L0cke17 posted:Its probably because some people associate aggro decks with new players and view it as a pejorative. They cant take their e-honor being besmirched by changing the name of the deck they play. I also dont know whats wrong with calling them tempo decks either, since that's basically what they are. The tempo archetype is the most nonsense archetype in the history of Magic. It doesn't mean anything and just makes discussions extremely frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:52
|
|
|
Sampatrick posted:I don't see why it is. It's fine to call Jeskai Control just a Control deck instead of a Control deck with some burn elements, it's also fine to call KCI a Combo deck rather than a Combo deck with some control elements, it's perfectly fine to also call Humans and Spirits Aggro decks. I get what you mean, and you're right. I think though if I was to explain to someone who likes to play aggro why they should play humans vs. say Naya with Reckless Bushwhacker for example, I'd explain they need the broad disruptive elements vs. the lightning speed. Even infect has swung toward this end of the spectrum as you've pointed out, GB infect has come back into vogue for the first time in forever because its better to be really disruptive in a broad sense than it is to just be lightning fast. I'm not going to choose aggro-control as my hill to die on, I just think its fair to say it is descriptive of what the better aggro decks in modern are doing now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 01:57
|
|
|
jassi007 posted:I get what you mean, and you're right. I think though if I was to explain to someone who likes to play aggro why they should play humans vs. say Naya with Reckless Bushwhacker for example, I'd explain they need the broad disruptive elements vs. the lightning speed. Even infect has swung toward this end of the spectrum as you've pointed out, GB infect has come back into vogue for the first time in forever because its better to be really disruptive in a broad sense than it is to just be lightning fast. I'm not going to choose aggro-control as my hill to die on, I just think its fair to say it is descriptive of what the better aggro decks in modern are doing now. That's fair, I do think that UG Infect is actually just better than GB because it's hard to convince me that this three drop is the answer to the UW/Jeskai decks which are still packing sweepers and permission. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding and you play the Crusader to beat Mardu.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 02:11
|
|
|
I think we all agree that there is a difference between raw aggro decks like Burn that primarily want to goldfish you to death as quickly as possible and hope to end the game before you can even try to stabilize, as opposed to decks like Delver or Spirits that want to get ahead on board quickly and then use that advantage to force their opponents to play into their disruptive elements. Whether you call them tempo or aggro/control or disruptive aggro is largely academic. The key difference is that former category of decks will try to keep interaction with their opponent to the barest minimum required to facilitate their win and in ideal circumstances will never do anything but hit them in the face, while for the latter disrupting the opponent is an integral part of their plan.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 02:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 16:44 |
|
|
Voyager I posted:I think we all agree that there is a difference between raw aggro decks like Burn that primarily want to goldfish you to death as quickly as possible and hope to end the game before you can even try to stabilize, as opposed to decks like Delver or Spirits that want to get ahead on board quickly and then use that advantage to force their opponents to play into their disruptive elements. Whether you call them tempo or aggro/control or disruptive aggro is largely academic. Uh I understand your point, but ideal circumstances for Delver and Spirits are also just attacking the opponent, especially for Spirits since they have to trade creatures in order to interact with whatever the opponent is doing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2018 02:32
|
|