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The UK under the Tories won't do gently caress all against Israel, hth
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Jul 5, 2018 12:31
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qkkl posted:I have no idea if this is correct, but Israel might boycott all dealings with UK firms if the UK boycotts the settlements specifically. It would be like a "if I'm going down, so are you" bluff that the UK hasn't been willing to call, yet. Imagine the end of New Jack City but instead of Nino Brown testifying and getting shot by an old man it's benjamin netanyahu.
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Jul 5, 2018 16:18
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0txqZUjAp3s
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Jul 8, 2018 12:54
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Here's the original Electronic Intifada report. The actual connection is pretty tenuous: Israeli Weapons Industries licensed a gun model to the state-owned Ukrainian Fort. And then local militias, including the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, were able to purchase or acquire it from Fort. The rest of the piece has nothing to do with any facts related to the matter: instead there's paragraphs upon paragraphs about the evils of Azov, an airing of grievances of past Israeli support for horrible regimes, horrible Israeli policies, past US support for horrible regimes, pro-Russia anti-Ukrainian propaganda; in short, nothing else to do with confirming the bombastic headline.
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Jul 8, 2018 17:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Here's the original Electronic Intifada report. The actual connection is pretty tenuous: Israeli Weapons Industries licensed a gun model to the state-owned Ukrainian Fort. And then local militias, including the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, were able to purchase or acquire it from Fort. The rest of the piece has nothing to do with any facts related to the matter: instead there's paragraphs upon paragraphs about the evils of Azov, an airing of grievances of past Israeli support for horrible regimes, horrible Israeli policies, past US support for horrible regimes, pro-Russia anti-Ukrainian propaganda; in short, nothing else to do with confirming the bombastic headline. The Israeli government isn't saying who it gives licences to export weapons to and who they export to so it's impossible to confirm, but according to John Brown, Elbit (Israeli weapons company) is going to a 'defense investment forum' in Kiev, a Ukranian weapons company called 'Fort' has been allowed to manufacture Israeli weapons and it's not a stretch to imagine those going to Azov. There's some other connections here if you're interested and can read Hebrew.
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Jul 8, 2018 17:53
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Miftan posted:The Israeli government isn't saying who it gives licences to export weapons to and who they export to so it's impossible to confirm, but according to John Brown, Elbit (Israeli weapons company) is going to a 'defense investment forum' in Kiev, a Ukranian weapons company called 'Fort' has been allowed to manufacture Israeli weapons and it's not a stretch to imagine those going to Azov. There's some other connections here if you're interested and can read Hebrew. That's exactly what I said was the connection, though. Meanwhile, the headline is "Israel is arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine", not "licensed copies of Israeli arms are getting to neo-Nazis", which is actually supported by facts and is the real thing the Israeli groups are working on addressing. Edit: Also, did Asa Winstanley plain plagiarize John Brown's blog post for half of this piece, or are they the same person? Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jul 8, 2018 |
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Jul 8, 2018 17:57
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's exactly what I said was the connection, though. Meanwhile, the headline is "Israel is arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine", not "licensed copies of Israeli arms are getting to neo-Nazis", which is actually supported by facts and is the real thing the Israeli groups are working on addressing. I have no idea, John Brown is obviously a pseudonym though. The point remains though that if those guns are getting to actual neo-nazis Israel should stop it somehow, but Israel has never cared about supporting antisemites or nazis if it furthers their own goals. see: Junta and Orban
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Jul 8, 2018 18:22
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Miftan posted:I have no idea, John Brown is obviously a pseudonym though. The point remains though that if those guns are getting to actual neo-nazis Israel should stop it somehow, but Israel has never cared about supporting antisemites or nazis if it furthers their own goals. see: Junta and Orban Those aren't good examples because here it isn't even direct support, it's just that they can buy or get their hands on these arms licensed from Israel like other Ukrainian militias can, whether directly or indirectly. Yeah, I doubt they're going to go through the effort of pressuring Fort to keep better records of where their arms go, with all the big words about responsibility and national security, Israeli arms exports have mostly been "fire and forget", seems like.
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Jul 8, 2018 18:28
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Can't believe both the Nazis and Israel have decided that the old saying "If you can't beat em, join em" was the right thing to do with each other.
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Jul 8, 2018 19:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Those aren't good examples because here it isn't even direct support, it's just that they can buy or get their hands on these arms licensed from Israel like other Ukrainian militias can, whether directly or indirectly. Yeah, I doubt they're going to go through the effort of pressuring Fort to keep better records of where their arms go, with all the big words about responsibility and national security, Israeli arms exports have mostly been "fire and forget", seems like. Yeah and that's a problem. They are actively selling to genocidal regimes.
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Jul 8, 2018 19:19
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Miftan posted:Yeah and that's a problem. They are actively selling to genocidal regimes. Yeah, but it's not the problem in the headline.
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Jul 8, 2018 19:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, but it's not the problem in the headline. No, but it makes the headline more believable. If you're lovely to the waitress I'll be more inclined to believe that you're a shithead to other people as well sort of thing. Israel is actively friends with tyrants, genocide regimes AND antisemites / neo nazis so this isn't a massive leap. I'll give you that there's no evidence and there never will be because FOR SOME REASON israel will never release that data. 
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Jul 8, 2018 19:50
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In other news, Bibi worked so hard on loving things up with Iran and scaremongering about them getting nukes and now Saudi Arabia is going nuclear and there's nothing he can do about it. https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1016051999354294274
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Jul 8, 2018 21:13
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Main Paineframe posted:Who cares? No one has any problem with both Jews and Palestinians both living in a single unified state - except for racists who believe that it's impossible or simply undesirable for Palestinians and Jews to coexist as equals. The only reason it's not "practical" or "realistic" is because those racists currently run the Israeli government - and given that they're currently engaged in a program of mass disenfranchisement and ethnic cleansing, we probably shouldn't leave it to them to decide what qualifies as reasonable! No one has ever actually explained how the right of return is practical. It's all a bunch of hand waiving. Either it's "symbolic" and most won't take it, or they'll de facto self segregate, or they'll literally return to their pre-1948 homes that other people live in now, who will then become homeless. Which is it? quote:Letting Israel keep the land inside the Green Line is the sacrifice. This isn't how negotiations work - otherwise why do you think Israel and the PLO spent decades trying to establish "facts on the ground", especially scrambling for territory in Jerusalem. Letting refugees return means they wouldn't keep actually keep that land, it's inconsistent with other precedents like with Turkey, Russia, and India, and is fundamentally unfair to the Mizrahi refugees expelled post-1948. quote:Remember, all of Israel was stolen from the Palestinians, not just the stuff outside the 1967 or 1948 lines. No it all literally wasn't. We can argue until we're blue in the face about the value of Ottoman land deeds, but there's zero disputing that Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem and Hebron for example. Hong XiuQuan posted:Palestinians have already made many, many painful sacrifices. But let's put that aside. Let's assume you genuinely believe what you've just written. Let's deal with it: There's a multitude of examples of this not happening, immediately prior to and post-1948. quote:3) There's no need to negotiate if one side has to give up all their chips before arriving at the table. What you are suggesting - that Palestinians have to give up their inalienable rights that they as individuals hold under international law before they even get to negotiate is very beyond the pale. That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting that refusing to accept to any agreement that does not include that, when it's highly unlikely that any agreement ever would, is equivalent to precluding any chance of an agreement, and preferring the status quo to ending the occupation. It's a practical thing. The status quo favors Israel, the Palestinians' negotiating power gets worse by the day. quote:Tell me what you disagree with KJI and we'll see just how much you know about international consensus and how much you are interested in 'genuine peace' versus repeated Likud platform policies from the 1990s. 4/5 - I only support an agreement that compensates ALL refugees, and this must be purely financial in nature. I support 1, which Likud does not, and clearly the PA would have full authority on what refugees could return to their state. I am a huge proponent of economic aid, and have been arguing for years that Israel should take steps in that area without preconditions.
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Jul 9, 2018 01:18
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emanresu tnuocca posted:What I really appreciate about the whole 'BDS is out to annihilate israel' talking point is that it assumes that everyone that has ever voiced any sort of support to BDS is basically as tenacious as the terminator. I have never claimed BDS is out to annihilate Israel, and I agree with everything else that you said. I have been careful to distinguish generic boycotters from crazy nationalists like Barghouti. In fact, this enrages me about Netanyahu's policies and messaging. He has consistently hurt Israel, again and again. Zulily Zoetrope posted:I like how you madly swerve between "ideally we'd all have open borders, but all Jews have the inalienable right to land in Israel either way" and "allowing the right of return for Palestinians is literal genocide, I cannot believe I have to explain this to you" from post to post. I'm not sure how you reconcile these two positions. I have never claimed "all Jews have the inalienable right to land in Israel" - I was arguing that claims based on 1948 don't have any special moral authority over older claims, or claims from other conflicts. I have never claimed "allowing the right of return for Palestinians is literal genocide." I was arguing that it's whatever as a negotiating tactic, but taking BDS literally about insisting on that is a poison pill for any peace deal. All countries should have open borders, but it's inconsistent to single out Israel for having maybe the 73rd most racist immigration policy in the world. In fact, what I was saying was that there should be a laser focus on getting a deal to end the occupation, and anything else must be discarded. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jul 9, 2018 |
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Jul 9, 2018 01:20
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Nothing you say is interesting enough for you to post, much less to doublepost.
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Jul 9, 2018 01:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In other news, Bibi worked so hard on loving things up with Iran and scaremongering about them getting nukes and now Saudi Arabia is going nuclear and there's nothing he can do about it. 
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Jul 9, 2018 01:59
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You don’t need to think you’re arguing that the BDS is out to destroy Israel to be using the bullshit arguments the people do think so use KJI, nor is anyone impressed by your stated support for what you think counts as a two-state solution to the conflict. It’s the practical measures, and reasons for those measures you propose that everyone here finds unconvincing, that makes your position poo poo and retarded. Palestinian concessions after four (4) decades of Israeli expansionism, settlement construction and ethnic cleansing is not possible or feasible for much of the same reasons you’ve given for why Israeli concessions are impossible and also why you keep voting for fascists. You can’t both demand that Palestinians make the first move and refuse to sacrifice anything as an act of good faith yourself, while standing in a position of strength and absolute superiority achieved though illegitimate conquest. you dumb dick. No argument about how the BDS are a buncj of meanieheds who don’t want to play in the same sandbox with you and keep throwing illegal rocks at your car, is going to change this dynamic. If Israel made any act of contrition and compromise, like tearing down that loving wall and dismantling the settlements, the BDS movement regardless of its internal political factions or dynamics, along with other Palestinian resistance movements, would be forced to reciprocate or risk losing the global public sympathy they so utterly rely on for the little support they receive. The refusal of Israel to compromise on anything at all before a Palestinian surrender you argue for ensures a cycle of escalation and ultimately the very destruction you seem to wail about and blame on some Netanyahu conspiracy to use Palestinian resistance to ensure his personal power. So whatever, declare all you want how Israel won’t yield an inch and so on, the BDS movement will just continue to gather steam in the meantime and eventually you’ll end up like South-Africa. They had the unflinching support of a global empire too, remember? Yeah. There’s no way this path is going to end well for you. Ins’Allah
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Jul 9, 2018 09:18
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Edit: Also, did Asa Winstanley plain plagiarize John Brown's blog post for half of this piece, or are they the same person? "John Brown" is a jewish israeli-argentinian expat living in Beer Sheba, despite using a pseudonym to preserve his anonymity he has since made several public appearances with his face exposed while using the pseudonym he's not that ginger londoner Asa whatever. You can see him here, real face and all - https://www.facebook.com/LondonKirs...98067326915266/
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Jul 9, 2018 14:13
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Kim Jong Il posted:No one has ever actually explained how the right of return is practical. It's all a bunch of hand waiving. Either it's "symbolic" and most won't take it, or they'll de facto self segregate, or they'll literally return to their pre-1948 homes that other people live in now, who will then become homeless. Which is it? Like, for example, formally recognizing that Palestinians have the right of return at all in the first place. Doing so would not necessarily mean that right will be %100 fulfilled, but it would likely bring Palestinians to the negotiating table by giving them something to negotiate with other than "bend the knee to Israel." You already know this, of course. You'll continue to ignore it though. I'm just spelling it out for the sake of others who might be interested.
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Jul 9, 2018 14:35
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A guy who's posting history consists of making headass arguments, then responding to everyone after they tell him how he's a loving moron isn't going to be swayed by anything you or I say to him.
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Jul 9, 2018 14:44
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lollontee posted:You don’t need to think you’re arguing that the BDS is out to destroy Israel to be using the bullshit arguments the people do think so use KJI, nor is anyone impressed by your stated support for what you think counts as a two-state solution to the conflict. It’s the practical measures, and reasons for those measures you propose that everyone here finds unconvincing, that makes your position poo poo and retarded. What do you think is a reasonable or realistic concessions that Israel would make that would satisfy the Palestinians?
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Jul 9, 2018 14:47
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zapplez posted:What do you think is a reasonable or realistic concessions that Israel would make that would satisfy the Palestinians?
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Jul 9, 2018 15:24
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zapplez posted:What do you think is a reasonable or realistic concessions that Israel would make Based on past behaviour? None.
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Jul 9, 2018 15:34
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What was the last israeli concession?
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Jul 9, 2018 15:36
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Every time a palestinian gets shot below the waist by an israeli soldier and survives they probably consider it a concession.
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Jul 9, 2018 15:39
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zapplez posted:What do you think is a reasonable or realistic concessions that Israel would make that would satisfy the Palestinians? The crux of the problem is that Israel refuses to make significant concessions.
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Jul 9, 2018 15:52
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zapplez posted:What do you think is a reasonable or realistic concessions that Israel would make that would satisfy the Palestinians? "Realistic" is such a weasel word.
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Jul 9, 2018 16:03
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yeah, the "realistic" concessions are pretty much nonexistent let me go and grab my delightful explainer to the last poor dipshit who had no interest in the current state of affairs over there. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:like, you take this down to realpolitik facts on the ground, here they are. quote:not thinking it through, my man. not having the Palestinian Threat to fearmonger about -IS- the cost of peace Likud is not willing to pay. quote:the other, significantly larger existential problem for Israel is that having optimized their army for fighting Hamas, they have made it competitive with Saudi Arabia in terms of just how hopelessly incompetent it is fighting someone with comparable equipment. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jul 9, 2018 |
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Jul 9, 2018 16:09
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Cat Mattress posted:
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Jul 9, 2018 17:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:Ending the naval blockade of Gaza In my mind it was part of the "give Palestinians control over their borders" thing but you're right that it doesn't hurt to explicitly mention it.
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Jul 9, 2018 18:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:"John Brown" is a jewish israeli-argentinian expat living in Beer Sheba, despite using a pseudonym to preserve his anonymity he has since made several public appearances with his face exposed while using the pseudonym he's not that ginger londoner Asa whatever. I was just trying to give the benefit of the doubt. Turns out it might have actually been the other way around! https://twitter.com/AsaWinstanley/status/1016322844458913792
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Jul 10, 2018 00:42
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Flowers For Algeria posted:"Realistic" is such a weasel word. Ok. What would a map look like of Israel and Palestine if the Palestinians got to rewrite it tomorrow?
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Jul 10, 2018 04:43
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yeah, the "realistic" concessions are pretty much nonexistent Is Israel really bad for civil rights compared to the rest of the middle east? I thought it was one of the few countries within a 1000 km that wouldn't throw you off a tower for being gay. And they let their women hold down jobs and drive cars. Seems pretty progressive compared to everything around it.
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Jul 10, 2018 04:46
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is there a list of these disingenuous arguments you're just going through
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Jul 10, 2018 05:02
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zapplez posted:Is Israel really bad for civil rights compared to the rest of the middle east? I thought it was one of the few countries within a 1000 km that wouldn't throw you off a tower for being gay. And they let their women hold down jobs and drive cars. Seems pretty progressive compared to everything around it. are there other countries nearby that sterilize you without consent for the crime of being the wrong color during immigration? big, if true
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Jul 10, 2018 05:32
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zapplez posted:Is Israel really bad for civil rights compared to the rest of the middle east? I thought it was one of the few countries within a 1000 km that wouldn't throw you off a tower for being gay. And they let their women hold down jobs and drive cars. Seems pretty progressive compared to everything around it. As long as you're not the 1/3rd of the population that effectively do not have human rights, it's great!
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Jul 10, 2018 05:39
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zapplez posted:Ok. What would a map look like of Israel and Palestine if the Palestinians got to rewrite it tomorrow? Borders of Palestine from before the British gave it to the Jews with all ethnicities living there under a secular government
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Jul 10, 2018 05:53
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starkebn posted:Borders of Palestine from before the British gave it to the Jews with all ethnicities living there under a secular government So what does that look like ? Do you have a map?
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Jul 10, 2018 06:49
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zapplez posted:Is Israel really bad for civil rights compared to the rest of the middle east? I thought it was one of the few countries within a 1000 km that wouldn't throw you off a tower for being gay. And they let their women hold down jobs and drive cars. Seems pretty progressive compared to everything around it. 
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Jul 10, 2018 06:58
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