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The REAL Goobusters posted:I honestly can’t imagine anything worse than being a part of a fandom Being in a fandom and also sad you're not a blue cat alien
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Jul 10, 2018 02:36
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Harime Nui posted:Being in a fandom and also sad you're not a blue cat alien People legitimately tried to tell me that Avatar was sad because you "also" wanted to be a blue 8 ft tall alien and knew you never could. Like, with a straight face! Mental Illness.
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Jul 10, 2018 02:44
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avatar fandom was basically anarcho-primitivism with the noble savagery safely exported to a non-human analogue so when an indigenous person told you to stop romanticising their existence you didn't have to reconsider your position
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Jul 10, 2018 02:50
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El Burbo posted:Gotta get his death on-screen while they can! Disney must be bitter that they can’t kill off Leia on-screen in episode 9, so they simply tapped BDW to replace her for that role instead.
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Jul 10, 2018 03:09
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Dishwasher posted:People legitimately tried to tell me that Avatar was sad because you "also" wanted to be a blue 8 ft tall alien and knew you never could. Like, with a straight face!
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Jul 10, 2018 04:19
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Dishwasher posted:Star Wars is a sci-fi series designed to sell toys and movie tickets. Not a savior. Cynicism is understandable, but pure ideology is impossible. There are always traces of authenticity in a given film. Star Wars is not a savior, but it is about a savior: Darth Vader. In the case of TLJ, it’s not very hard to see where it goes wrong. Check the first and only clearly-stated explanation of where the First Order came from - dropped as a throwaway line halfway into the second film where they appear as the antagonists: Rose: “My sister and I grew up in a poor mining system. The First Order stripped our ore to finance its military, then shelled us to test their weapons. They took everything we had.“ That might seem like a straightforward sob story, but there’s a lot of vital information packed in there. 1) Rose’s system was evidently impoverished before the First Order showed up, which means they were already being exploited by Leia’s people in the Republic. Rose is not really objecting to poverty but to the loss of autonomy: ‘that ore was ours! To sell. For a pittance.’ 2) Rose also has no real ecological objection to the strip-mining of her nation’s resources. She was already doing that; her family were miners. So Rose’s complaint seems to be that the First Order was far better at mining, working far more efficiently, and was therefore more successful in the capitalist Republic’s free market. This is more your standard complaint about how big corporations threaten mom-and pop indie retailers or something. 3) This means the First Order didn’t rise up through military power but through economic power. The FO governments apparently nationalized their mining industries and simply outperformed everyone else. (Think of how much digging it took to make Death Star 3: Starkiller (“this fierce machine, which you have built!”).) The FO traded the ore with other Republic worlds, on the Republic markets, and then bought weapons from Republic weapons manufacturers, aerospace corporations, etc. 4) With all this in mind, it seems rather unlikely that the First Order military just started randomly bombing populations. It’s far more likely that there were conflicts between Rose’s independent mining companies on the one side and the First Order’s state-owned operations on the other.
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Jul 10, 2018 05:27
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ITT brainstorm monstrous and stupid acts lando did in the intervening 40 years so he too will be entirely unsympathetic
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 08:15
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Dishwasher posted:People's anger at the ST is definitely understandable by the previous poster's opinion that people are being let down by an inherently capitalist franchise designed to sell toys and movie tickets being worshiped as something more than what it is. Then when peoples' current cynicism reveals that Star Wars is basically a capitalist franchise designed to sell toys and movie tickets, it's like they killed God or something. It's always been about the merchandise.
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Jul 10, 2018 08:17
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No Mods No Masters posted:ITT brainstorm monstrous and stupid acts lando did in the intervening 40 years so too he will be entirely unsympathetic He groped dozens of droids and fiddled with sentient ship computers while they're in standby mode.
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Jul 10, 2018 08:18
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No Mods No Masters posted:ITT brainstorm monstrous and stupid acts lando did in the intervening 40 years so he too will be entirely unsympathetic Went back to tabana gas farming after the war was over. Got old and jaded and ramped up production for anyone who asked to buy it on all sides, tying into TLJ profiteering reveals. Now every FO blaster, fighter cannon, and gun emplacement has Lando Blaster Fuel because gently caress it everyone sucks anyway may as well get paid. He's also the one selling most of the weapons and ships to both sides, probably even the war profiteering story's Big Bad. Daughter/Wife/Son/Old Allies convince him to make things right by fatally flying Falcon directly into a Star Destroyer or "Death Star 4: Death Starrier"'s core during the last battle. Because who ever said Lando was a good guy exactly? The OT and especially Solo doesn't really paint him that way. It's just "everyone" hates Space Nazis with Planet Destroying Lasers, especially when they're stopping your money hustle, and is willing to do their part when it's time to stop that specific kinda thing. But if the FO isn't just not bothering him but actually giving him good money, he's totally keeping his head down and going back to not really giving a poo poo. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 09:19
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Finn is absolutely going to be Lando's son, whose kidnapping as an infant by the First Order left him disillusioned and disengaged with the rest of the galaxy.
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Jul 10, 2018 09:29
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Wheat Loaf posted:Finn is absolutely going to be Lando's son, whose kidnapping as an infant by the First Order left him disillusioned and disengaged with the rest of the galaxy. If I could roll my eyes any harder I'd be looking at my own brain, but this is likely totally what's happening. 
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Jul 10, 2018 09:35
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"It's time you knew your real name.......... Sczando."
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Jul 10, 2018 09:57
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Dishwasher posted:If I could roll my eyes any harder I'd be looking at my own brain, but this is likely totally what's happening. Alternatively, Lando is Finn's grandfather and Finn calls him "Grando" throughout.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:06
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I don't want to be all NOT MY LANDO but it isn't the best news when it's like, well, have you seen what they've done to Han, Luke and Leia? Better to leave him out of it.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:08
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Tbh the angrier the fans the more fun this next one will be.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:11
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If I was Billy Dee I would be frankly insulted they don't give me the call until the third one, let alone the fact they killed off Harrison and Hamill---excluding putative health reasons which may have kept him out of TFA.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Cynicism is understandable, but pure ideology is impossible. There are always traces of authenticity in a given film. Given that the FO is a military power which evidently does not consider Rose's people their native constituents, the situation seems closer to an indigenous or third world population being displaced by an imperial power interested in exploiting resources. Since the 'weapon testing' happened after the resource extraction, it wasn't likely a pretense for conflict over a fait accompli, but rather for the disposal of a population of forced laborers whose usefulness has expired. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 10:20
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Only if you don't consider the human-preferential status so obviously set up by the Prequels. Of course there are humans on tiny colonies that can be blowed up without anybody caring, but they're the equivalent of the Maquis in Star Trek---literally humans who said no, we don't want to live on the dole, and tried making a colony out in space that turned out to be the playground of empires. It's speculative but I find SMG's idea of the situation that led to Rose's parents dying by bomb more convincing than Hodgepodge's---again, humans in the Star Wars universe have more options. They can fight back, they can sass their masters, and so-on. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 10:26
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Harime Nui posted:Only if you don't consider the human-preferential status so obviously set up by the Prequels. Of course there are humans on tiny colonies that can be blowed up without anybody caring, but they're the equivalent of the Maquis in Star Trek---literally humans who said no, we don't want to live on the dole, and tried making a colony out in space that turned out to be the playground of empires. That's a lightning quick resort to just world theory you've got.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:28
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CelticPredator posted:Tbh the angrier the fans the more fun this next one will be. I find Mangold, Rian Johnson, McQuarrie, Kathleen Kennedy, Abrams, etc. humiliating themselves with meltdowns on social media much more entertaining than twitter eggs doing it. Perhaps they should take their own advice and remind themselves that these are just movies?
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Jul 10, 2018 10:28
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Not to Star Wars fans it’s not
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Jul 10, 2018 10:30
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Hodgepodge posted:That's a lightning quick resort to just world theory you've got. My understanding is that just world theory means things eventually work out for the guy who plays by the rules and those who cheat may prosper in the short term, but will feel the recourse of their actions eventually................ I have no idea what that has to do with the inevitable fate of people who try to run a colony beyond the sphere of their race in a racialized, gangster-run galaxy
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Jul 10, 2018 10:31
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Pablo Nergigante posted:They have no Feige
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Jul 10, 2018 10:34
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No Mods No Masters posted:ITT brainstorm monstrous and stupid acts lando did in the intervening 40 years so he too will be entirely unsympathetic Well, the standard pattern has been to ignore all character development and changes that took place during the OT and revert everyone to the shallowest interpretation of their original status. So, obviously, Lando's going to sell everyone out at the first opportunity, and it won't be while under extreme duress or while worrying about a whole city of people either - it'll just be motivated by selfish greed. He'll probably die redeeming himself soon after, though, and then everyone will act like he was a hero all along. Probably he or someone else will wear that drat Jabba's Palace disguise we saw again in Solo. And there'll be some unfunny scene referencing L3's disembodied consciousness having been trapped in the Falcon for decades, and Lando will act annoyed at having to acknowledge her existence.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:36
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Harime Nui posted:My understanding is that just world theory means things eventually work out for the guy who plays by the rules and those who cheat may prosper in the short term, but will feel the recourse of their actions eventually................ I have no idea what that has to do with the inevitable fate of people who try to run a colony beyond the sphere of their race in a racialized, gangster-run galaxy Just world theory is a series of ad hoc explanations which dismiss suffering as the fault of those who suffer and which reassures its proponents that they follow the rules (whatever they imagine those to be) and consequently, that they will not themselves suffer. Essentially, it is the idea that suffering is caused by sin. Those miners obviously could have chosen to live somewhere else, or resist better somehow, but their sin of pride brought destruction upon them. You've even invented a whole backstory where these miners choose freely to create this colony, completely without evidence. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 10:41
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CelticPredator posted:Not to Star Wars fans it’s not Sure it is; barely any of them even bothered to see SOLO: A Star Wars Disaster.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:43
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Hodgepodge posted:Just world theory is a series of ad hoc explanations which dismiss suffering as the fault of those who suffer and which reassures its proponents that they follow the rules (whatever they imagine those to be) and consequently, that they will not themselves suffer. Rose's parents didn't end up on a mining planet by accident though. Everything SMG and I suppose about the Star Wars Galaxy is a natural supposition from the implicit data given in the films. At some point they must have decided X particular space rock was worth settling on for its resources..... then the First Order made the same decision. The FO wouldn't be as popular as it obviously is if they murdered random human miners so..... they probably got a warning. And so-on. Let me tell you the First Order didn't get into its position in the galaxy entirely through the charisma of Hux. Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 10:44
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Harime Nui posted:
Or someone bought them and brought them to colony as indentures long ago, or misrepresented the economic prospects of the colony as much better than they were and left them without the resources to relocate and start over. There's no reason to make the assumptions that you do. Droids are slaves, but human slavery, and presumably a whole spectrum of exploitation of humans by other humans, also exists. e: that you think that murdering miners is an unpopular measure is an indication that you lack even a passing familiarity with labor history. Canada murders miners in South America, for example. No one gives a poo poo, they aren't Canadian, we need jobs and are glad to not hear about it. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 10:51
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Hodgepodge posted:Or someone bought them and brought them to colony as indentures long ago, or misrepresented the economic prospects of the colony as much better than they were and left them without the resources to relocate and start over. There's no reason to make the assumptions that you do. Droids are slaves, but human slavery, and presumably a whole spectrum of exploitation of humans by other humans, also exists. But your two suggestions don't contradict mine? Those could be the reason Rose's parents were out there, and then they ended up in "competition" with a First Order extraction mission or whatever.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:53
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Harime Nui posted:But your two suggestions don't contradict mine? Those could be the reason Rose's parents were out there, and then they ended up in "competition" with a First Order extraction mission or whatever. You present their presence and dependence on the resources in dispute as an arbitrary choice on their part, not as a historically conditioned economy necessity for survival.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:59
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Hodgepodge posted:You present their presence and dependence on the resources in dispute as an arbitrary choice on their part, not as a historically conditioned economy necessity for survival. They may have been forced to compete with the First Order and then killed by the First Order for competing with the First Order. They may have gone there of their own accord not suspecting the First Order would corner them. It's all possible and all irrelevant. They were being selfish and not funneling resources back to the center, where they belong.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:04
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Harime Nui posted:They may have been forced to compete with the First Order and then killed by the First Order for competing with the First Order. They may have gone there of their own accord not suspecting the First Order would corner them. It's all possible and all irrelevant. They were being selfish and not funneling resources back to the center, where they belong. 
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Jul 10, 2018 11:06
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What was scary about what I said? You get that the fundamental reason Palpatine's message sold so well was he could legitimately point to resistance by the peripheral systems---the rim---against the enrichment of the core worlds by extracting their resources and specialized labor at unfair prices? IOW, the periphery started to stir against the center, and that was the basis for the Clone Wars. So, none of that changed over the next 60 years----on the periphery it's all about who's going to funnel resources into the center in the greatest bulk, period.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:09
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I've been trolled, for trying to talk semi-seriously about Star Wars. I deserved it.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:13
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Harime Nui posted:What was scary about what I said? You get that the fundamental reason Palpatine's message sold so well was he could legitimately point to resistance by the peripheral systems---the rim---against the enrichment of the core worlds by extracting their resources and specialized labor at unfair prices? IOW, the periphery started to stir against the center, and that was the basis for the Clone Wars. So, none of that changed over the next 60 years----on the periphery it's all about who's going to funnel resources into the center in the greatest bulk, period. You seem to be arguing that the center has not only a divine right, but some sort of monstrous mission, to exploit the periphery. I'm not sure how you arrived and this nightmare version of fascism, but you'll have a bright future in resource extraction management. e: SMG, I know you're genuinely attempting a redemptive reading, but you should be careful not to produce horseshoe theory: a star wars story instead. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 11:14
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Hodgepodge posted:You seem to be arguing that the center has not only a divine right, but some sort of monstrous mission, to exploit the periphery. I'm not sure how you arrived and this nightmare version of fascism, but you'll have a bright future in resource extraction management. Uh............................. it's just the situation, in the movies. It has nothing to do with what I, Harime Nui, think is the best politico-economic system to run a putative galaxy of Twi'leks and Rancors.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:19
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I mean look, SMG offered a pretty drat valid reading of that character's 2-3 lines. It might not literally be true. But it makes sense in the context of the Star Wars Galaxy as the other films had laid it out. What else do you want? If you can come up with something that's more interesting, spill it out, and that'll become the headcanon of the four nerds in this thread who care to read. Whatever. I simply offered context why that reading of Rose's line would make sense........................ the response was not good.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:32
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Also I am not SMG's messenger. We are not the same. For ex., I like Predators (2010); he hates Predators. I like all the X-Men movies except the bad ones; he hates 'em all. He thinks Spider-Man is a bad character for kids to have an example from; I'm indifferent to Spidey. He thinks AVP: Aliens vs Predator offers an insightful take on the nature of franchises; to an extent I agree but it's a terrible movie. We do both really like About Schmidt.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:39
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Yeah that was a pretty unfair characterization of what Harime was saying, which was specifically that this vision of the conflict is one Palpatine exploited under a guise of security to usher in the Empire. Also that we simply don't know enough about Rose's home planet. This is the big problem with the ST, it does nowhere near enough to show any of this, so it's all snippets or excesses of exposition. Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts…. The First Order are also commonly read as this external threat that lay in wait and emerged from beyond the rim or the New Republic’s reach or whatever; but the TFA scrawl simply says they have risen from the ashes of the Empire - much like the New Republic.
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Jul 10, 2018 13:03
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