|
Losing geo, walking back after death, and the map feature are all fine. They're modern takes on old game mechanics. The geo thing and walking back are modern takes on lives and continues in my eyes, they're minor setbacks. Exploring without a map and having to update the map are great exploration mechanics. It forces you learn the lay of the land. Also the anticipation of opening the map after exploring a new zone to look for any missed paths is pretty exciting for me. If the game did not have these mechanics (I am willing to concede the map thing) what would be the purpose of they health system? There would be no risk and therefore no reason to think and play the game intelligently. Games need some sort of failure condition to make the success condition feel great.
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:33 |
|
|
Overwatch Porn posted:you also break your soul thing which imo is much more of an incentive to get your corpse back than geo Oh, yes. Quite true. More than once I’ve gotten frustrated with a path I was exploring and rather than go up to buy my regrets away, I’ve said “gently caress it” and walked Into spikes near my bench a bunch of times to move my shade closer.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
Just having to walk back through a large area you already passed is penalty enough. You have health for dealing with enemies scattered all through those regions, and the wide space between benches. Having the money loss mechanic is dumb and adds nothing, especially if you happen to die again before getting back to the ghost. As others mentioned, it actively penalizes you for exploring. Not starting out with a map is annoying for similar reasons, since there are a lot of blocked pathways early on and then if you die you lose resources you can't even locate to retrieve them. The lesson there is "look up where the map guy is immediately." The rancid eggs are fairly rare and you have to travel all the way back to town to use them. The devs even seem to acknowledge how annoying the whole process is by not requiring you to hunt the ghost when fighting dream bosses. The areas are challenging enough that you still have to be careful and not just rush blindly through, and the later changes to some areas mean that you can't even rely on breezing through things once you're upgraded. ETA: I don't think the mechanic particularly adds anything to Souls games either. I enjoy the games but the fanbase seems incapable of acknowledging the difference between 'fun and good difficulty' and 'dumb bullshit that adds nothing' like not putting spawn points close to boss areas. occamsnailfile fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jul 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
corn in the bible posted:it adds the ability to put "inspired by dark souls" into your ad copy Pretty certain that shovel knight never advertised itself as being inspired by dark souls
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
every single other metroidvania did just fine with mapping as you go; the map mechanic in hollow knight was absolutely the worst thing about it
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:52
|
|
|
Wildtortilla posted:If the game did not have these mechanics (I am willing to concede the map thing) what would be the purpose of they health system? There would be no risk and therefore no reason to think and play the game intelligently. Games need some sort of failure condition to make the success condition feel great. There's always the more common "reload from the last checkpoint" or "reload your last save" but to me that's just as harsh, because you're straight-up losing any progress you made between saving and dying. I guess if there were more frequent checkpoints, sure, but then that removes almost all of the tension from exploration. That's sort of the thing with Dark Souls's corpse runs, too. The alternative is probably to just reload your game state from the last bonfire you rested at, but I don't think that's any less harsh than the "respawn from your last rested bonfire without your souls" system the game currently has. I guess if you rested at that bonfire with a large number of souls, didn't spend them, and then died, that'd be the case where just reloading a save would be more lenient. But as it is now, you still keep items you found before dying and any locked doors you opened stay open. And you have a chance to get back the currency you earned along the way, too. If anything, that's nicer than just reloading your save.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:53
|
|
|
Wildtortilla posted:Games need some sort of failure condition to make the success condition feel great. Mak0rz posted:Respawning at a bench five miles away from where you died is punishment enough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
Overwatch Porn posted:every single other metroidvania did just fine with mapping as you go; the map mechanic in hollow knight was absolutely the worst thing about it and every single other metroidvania is worse than hollow knight coincidence!?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
there'd be a lot fewer people complaining about having to pick up their ghost if steel soul was the only gameplay mode in hollow knight, imo
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
The guy from Memento playing Hollow Knight, never making it back to where he already made it to once before.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 18:59
|
|
|
Real hurthling! posted:Play it on ps1 so you get lots of snack breaks while the battle screen loads It's not the load times that'll kill you in FFVI on PS1. It's the menu lag that was also added that I don't think was in any of the other PS1 ports. It's so bad I couldn't queue up healing fast enough because I went through the menus too god damned slow. Also... Overwatch Porn posted:every single other metroidvania did just fine with mapping as you go; the map mechanic in hollow knight was absolutely the worst thing about it that and the giant hit spark
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
I have very little desire to play Hollow Knight because I really hate it when games punish you by making you lose a bunch of time and progress. Repeating stuff you already completed to get to where you died isn't hard, its just tedious and wasting your time.
Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:05
|
|
|
i can't believe none of these people just put their geo in the bank. how foolish. i mean, it's right there
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
Andrast posted:and every single other metroidvania is worse than hollow knight Oh well I guess it's true because you said it, instead of actually engaging in the argument with any form of logical retort.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
he's right though
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:07
|
|
|
Ometeotl posted:Oh well I guess it's true because you said it, instead of actually engaging in the argument with any form of logical retort. it's not like "other games don't have it so it's bad" is an argument that has a lot of points to argue.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:10
|
|
|
this whole topic of discussion reminds me of last year when cuphead came out and people were upset that you had to beat the bosses on normal difficulty to proceed to the next area
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Accordion Man posted:I have very little desire to play Hollow Knight because I really hate it when games punish you by making you lose a bunch of time and progress. Repeating stuff you already completed to get to where you died isn't hard, its just tedious and wasting your time. Hollow knight doesn't really punish you that bad. Losing your geo isn't a big deal, it's just there to make exploring feel more tense. Otherwise it's the same as dying in basically any other metroidvania. The difficulty isn't that high either so you probably aren't dying all the time (obviously ymmv here though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:11
|
|
|
Andrast posted:Hollow knight doesn't really punish you that bad. Losing your geo isn't a big deal, it's just there to make exploring feel more tense. Otherwise it's the same as dying in basically any other metroidvania. And this would be bad because...? Super Metroid didn't feel like a cakewalk just because I didn't lose any money during exploration.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:13
|
|
|
occamsnailfile posted:And this would be bad because...? Super Metroid didn't feel like a cakewalk just because I didn't lose any money during exploration. Hollow knight is deliberately designed so that you feel tense and lost when you are exploring. The lack of mapping your first time around and losing your geo are both mechanics that aid that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
i really enjoyed hollow knight overall and i didn't even really mind losing geo; i just hated the map system so much (and the fact you had to use a charm slot just to see your position on the map) that i looked up where cornifer was in every zone ahead of time so i could beeline to him having to go back to a bench to update your map was really unpleasant and there was nothing i could do about it
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:17
|
|
|
i honestly feel like i'd have a much bigger problem with everything in hollow knight if it wasn't like, the most forgiving metroidvania i've played when it comes to restoring health
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
Good Game Still Not Perfect, More News At 11
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:18
|
|
|
Samuringa posted:Good Game Still Not Perfect, More News At 11 well, apparently it's the perfect videogame according to that one guy though
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:23
|
|
|
the only imperfection in hollow knight is that the final dlc, gods and glory, isn't out yet
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:24
|
|
|
It would help if Hollow Knights endgame didn't rely so heavily on the wretched jumping Like at the end of the game the devs were like 'boy I wish I was developing meat boy, let's do that instead' but the game isn't designed for that so you're fighting with the game to get through the palace And then the true final boss shows up and surprise he's mainly jumping puzzles
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:25
|
|
|
It's a really lovely sour ending to an otherwise pretty good game
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:25
|
|
|
i mean you can hate the jumping puzzle stuff but the game is very much 100% explicitly designed for them i don't know where you're getting ideas to the contrary
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:26
|
|
|
Cowcaster posted:the only imperfection in hollow knight is that the final dlc, gods and glory, isn't out yet Also the Hornet campaign
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:27
|
|
|
Idk the jumping always seemed pretty good to me? Like you have a lot of air control and it feels snappy enough. The white palace owns.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:27
|
|
|
Cowcaster posted:i mean you can hate the jumping puzzle stuff but the game is very much 100% explicitly designed for them i don't know where you're getting ideas to the contrary In that you can do them, sure. It isn't fun, though. And if it's not fun, why bother?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:29
|
|
|
Accordion Man posted:I have very little desire to play Hollow Knight because I really hate it when games punish you by making you lose a bunch of time and progress. Repeating stuff you already completed to get to where you died isn't hard, its just tedious and wasting your time. I don't think the intention is for that feature to make it any harder. In fact, I think it's supposed to feel tedious. The point is to make you feel tense as you explore and worry that you could run into something you can't handle. If there's nothing on the line for if that happens, there's no real tension. For example, if there's a checkpoint every couple of rooms or something, you'd just reload from the checkpoint and go "welp, guess I shouldn't go that way," and turn back around--and there'd really be nothing in the game that's a real threat, if that makes sense. Obviously it's still totally fair not to want the threat of backtracking to be a major source of tension, I just think that it's an interesting case where a game is intentionally implementing something that isn't fun on its own to create a feeling of tension where there otherwise wouldn't be any.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:29
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:In that you can do them, sure. It isn't fun, though. And if it's not fun, why bother? I think it's fun
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:29
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:In that you can do them, sure. It isn't fun, though. And if it's not fun, why bother? have you considered that the game hollow knight may not have been designed with you specifically in mind
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:30
|
|
|
I wouldn't mind the true boss being a jumping puzzle if you didn't have to fight the previous boss first on every attempt. Put a checkpoint there like the rest of the dream bosses.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:31
|
|
|
haveblue posted:I wouldn't mind the true boss being a jumping puzzle if you didn't have to fight the previous boss first on every attempt. Put a checkpoint there like the rest of the dream bosses. Yeah fighting the previous boss first every time sucked
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:34
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:It would help if Hollow Knights endgame didn't rely so heavily on the wretched jumping Don't forget having to go through the easy but tedious final boss every time you want to fight the actually hard true final boss. That was a decision a human made.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:34
|
|
|
I really don't get why indie Metroidvania devs insist on making them twitch platformers/ have twitch platforming segments when Metroid and Castlevania were/had neither.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:36
|
|
|
It's almost like hollow knight isn't a castlevania or metroid game
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 00:33 |
|
|
if hollow knight was called "metroid" or "castlevania" i could see how that would be kind of weird
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2018 19:38
|
|