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To be triple clear though, that's easily the minority of Punisher appearances, and it doesn't really hit his fanbase like "gun man shoot crimer" does.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:16
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Right but I'm talking about a comic saying "the troops are bad'. Even though that's an objective fact, it's more or less unthinkable to express that in modern America.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:21
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Lurdiak posted:Right but I'm talking about a comic saying "the troops are bad'. Even though that's an objective fact, it's more or less unthinkable to express that in modern America. The definitive take on the Punisher's origin is Born, the miniseries by Garth Ennis detailing what happened in the run-up to Valley Forge. In that, there is absolutely no denying that the troops are bad.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:29
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Yeah, for all his foibles Ennis hates the military-industrial complex and will take any opportunity to illustrate its worst excesses.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:31
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Reed being a former soldier hasn't been relevant to his character in like 40 years.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:31
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Endless Mike posted:Reed being a former soldier hasn't been relevant to his character in like 40 years. I'd argue that his position as the head of the family, man of the house, adventurer for all seasons and explorer of distant climes is pretty well tied up in the old archetype of what it once meant to have been a soldier. Military service was meant to round you out, give you experience of the world, and fill you with masculine energy. In the last twenty years or so, sure, maybe less so. But Reed as the FF's paterfamilias who is also kind of a nerdier Doc Savage archetype has been vital to the character, and that's tied up with what military service used to indicate when America was less cynical about sending its young men to war.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:36
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Endless Mike posted:Reed being a former soldier hasn't been relevant to his character in like 40 years. Has it ever been brought up outside the initial Lee/Kirby run? Zdarsky's Two in One puts him in college in 1998 so even if he's there on the GI bill it means he didn't actually fight in a war.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:39
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I think in modern canon he was a communications specialist. It's been minimised a lot in his backstory since the Lee/Kirby run, for sure (and that has coincided with his character becoming less "two-fisted scientist who leads his family fearlessly into danger" and more "arrogant genius with a heart of gold"), but I'd argue that the very fact that his character used to be closer to the former says something about how his military backstory influenced his characterisation.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:44
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It's more like, back then everybody was involved in the war. You were either a soldier or scientist or a pilot or an engineer, or you worked in a factory riveting bombers, or you sold war bonds, etc. So in Kirby's day anybody who was that old would have an answer to the question, "what did you do in the war?" It's not very important to his character the way being a soldier is to Cap, Punisher or even Wolverine, so it's been discarded.
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Jun 18, 2018 19:52
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Jedit posted:The definitive take on the Punisher's origin is Born, the miniseries by Garth Ennis detailing what happened in the run-up to Valley Forge. In that, there is absolutely no denying that the troops are bad. I think the difference here is that it's socially acceptable now to criticize Vietnam because it is known as A Bad War but if you dare say an unkind word about today's troops you're unamerican
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Jun 18, 2018 19:56
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site posted:I think the difference here is that it's socially acceptable now to criticize Vietnam because it is known as A Bad War but if you dare say an unkind word about today's troops you're unamerican
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Jun 18, 2018 19:58
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darthbob88 posted:Or about the institution of Are Troops. Maybe a platoon of Marines are corrupt, maybe some SAS dudes are making money on the side, but they're just a few bad apples who totally don't smear the general concept of military personnel. This is why it's always a good soldier or cop who shoots the bad soldiers or cops, symbolically redeeming the institutions they represent
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Jun 18, 2018 20:01
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purple death ray posted:It's more like, back then everybody was involved in the war. You were either a soldier or scientist or a pilot or an engineer, or you worked in a factory riveting bombers, or you sold war bonds, etc. So in Kirby's day anybody who was that old would have an answer to the question, "what did you do in the war?" It used to be a fairly significant part of Ben Grimm's backstory that he was a military man, but that's obviously no longer the case.
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Jun 18, 2018 20:34
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Lurdiak posted:It used to be a fairly significant part of Ben Grimm's backstory that he was a military man, but that's obviously no longer the case. I am pretty sure he was still a test pilot
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Jun 19, 2018 00:26
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bobkatt013 posted:I am pretty sure he was still a test pilot Yeah but not having served in World War 2 reframes that.
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Jun 19, 2018 00:27
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Kramjacks posted:Was that the black and white one made in Poser? naw this one was by greg pak. Rhodey was some sorta cyborg or some poo poo in it.
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Jun 19, 2018 01:01
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Knives Amilli posted:naw this one was by greg pak. Rhodey was some sorta cyborg or some poo poo in it.  That weird time when Rhodey could just strap any type of weapon onto his body and it would somehow merge and he could use it.
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Jun 19, 2018 01:29
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Skwirl posted:Has it ever been brought up outside the initial Lee/Kirby run? Zdarsky's Two in One puts him in college in 1998 so even if he's there on the GI bill it means he didn't actually fight in a war.
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Jun 19, 2018 01:33
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Knives Amilli posted:There was a short-lived War Machine series that took place right after Secret Invasion that had Rhodey killing the living gently caress outta some mooks. In that series Rhody was a cyborg hooked up to a computer that was constantly playing all manner of war crimes that were happening around the globe. He does kill a boatload of people, but they kind of go out of their way to indicate how messed up his situation was.
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Jun 19, 2018 14:51
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Recap: In the first Injustice comic series, Sinestro came to Earth to align himself with Superman because the Regime's philosophies were a lot like his. He proceeded to convince Hal Jordan that they were on the same side and even tricked him into wearing a yellow ring. Sinestro also killed John Stewart and convinced Hal that it was Guy Gardner's fault. Hal lost his mind, thrashed Guy (who pleaded with him to see through this facade) and tore off his ring arm, leaving Guy to fall to his death. In the Injustice game, the Mainstream Universe Superman showed up and kicked Sinestro's rear end so thoroughly that a shamed Hal removed his yellow ring and handed it over without a fight. The epilogue showed Hal and Sinestro on trial before the Guardians. Injustice 2 #53 Hal constantly has Guy showing up to commentate on everything going on. Usually, Hal will tell him he's sorry, but Guy will just brush it off.    Injustice 2 #54     Injustice 2 #64 The Green Lanterns have been targeted by the Red Lanterns, who have added Starro to their ranks. poo poo is going bad as not only does Starro have Soranik under its control, but Sayd the Guardian as well. Out of desperation, Hal and Sinestro get green rings (as does Lobo, but that's the funny panels thread) with Sinestro mainly choosing to serve so he can save his daughter. He prevents her from taking a shot at Superboy and Wonder Girl.       Also great is this moment where Sinestro saves Hal and tells him that it's purely self-interest because Hal's his best student and the current crop is trash. Soon after, Sinestro is loudly ranting at the other GLs because they refuse to work as a unit. Ghost Guy tells Hal to let go of his self-hate and unite the Corps. So he yells for everyone to follow his lead. Several Lanterns look confused and annoyed, but Sinestro has the proudest poo poo-eating grin on his face.
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Jul 8, 2018 04:25
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Wait a minute... A redemption arc for a hero turned longtime villain that actually works? AND a redemption for Sinestro that does as well?! Whoever is writing Injustice deserves several raises and awards.
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Jul 8, 2018 07:55
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Injustice is so much better than mainline series DC that it's not even funny. It's basically their version of Marvel Ultimate line, and it's damnnnn good reading.
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Jul 8, 2018 08:08
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Honestly, between the comics and the games, Harley's path from Joker's moll, to being a member of the Justice League is one of the best redemption arcs I can think of.
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Jul 8, 2018 14:34
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I really like that the Hal Jordan storyline actually commits. It isn't like when Geoff Johns decided to lay the blame on Parallax. Hal made bad decisions and did horrible things and he has to live with it. After he helps fend off the Red Lanterns, Ghost Guy tells him straight up that he can never truly redeem himself, but he should still keep fighting... as long as he doesn't side with dictators again.
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Jul 9, 2018 03:22
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I'll be honest, a redemption arc for goddamn Sinestro is not even in the top twenty things I was expecting out of Injustice. So does this mean his daughter has two rings now, since it went to her, or is it more of a formality type of thing?
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Jul 9, 2018 03:39
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Malachite_Dragon posted:So does this mean his daughter has two rings now, since it went to her, or is it more of a formality type of thing? The fight is still ongoing, so nobody knows.
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Jul 9, 2018 03:44
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And injustice continues it's love letter to booster gold and blue beetle. with Booster's death and reuniting with Ted.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:51
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Might as well... Earlier in the thread, I posted Booster Gold visiting Ted Kord to warn him that his time was up and that there was nothing either of them could do. Booster made sure to be there for Ted's final moments and agreed to his last wish of mentoring Jaime. Jaime got kidnapped and recruited into taking on Starro since Starro was once defeated by another wielder of the Scarab. Blue Beetle, Booster and Skeets flew towards Starro with no idea what they were supposed to do. Booster had a weird stray memory of seeing himself floating around in space with someone holding his hand. Meanwhile, Superboy and Wonder Girl were also involved in the big Green Lantern/Red Lantern war. The two of them went through a ton of poo poo through this series and considering their total absence in the Injustice 2 game, the writing was on the wall. They ended up running into Brainiac, who overpowered and discarded them in space with no way to breathe. With it looking like the end, a portal opened and the Legion of Superheroes showed up to ask for their help. They're going to be okay... just in a different era. One figure stood among the Legion and said that he had to make one more stop in this time. It was Booster Gold. Injustice 2 #66 Jaime asks the Scarab how it stopped Starro the last time. Apparently the previous host separated from the Scarab and had it attach itself to Starro, zapping it until it blew up and killed the host in the explosion. Jaime resigns himself to his fate, but Booster has other ideas.       
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Jul 11, 2018 03:44
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Mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn I almost want to, but comparing that to Tom King's Booster is pointless. Tom Taylor should be writing so much more.
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Jul 11, 2018 03:54
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Infinitum posted:Injustice is so much better than mainline series DC that it's not even funny.
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Jul 11, 2018 04:05
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Infinitum posted:Injustice is so much better than mainline series DC that it's not even funny. 
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Jul 14, 2018 22:01
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I didn't enjoy the fist year of Injustice (prior to the videogame), but seeing that with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle was pretty much amazing, might as well give it another chance.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:54
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radlum posted:I didn't enjoy the fist year of Injustice (prior to the videogame), but seeing that with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle was pretty much amazing, might as well give it another chance. I used to think it was stupid as hell based on panels people were posting, and I still think the first stretch is really dumb. But once it gets to a certain point it really turned around for me. So much so that I honestly hope they make more games just so Tom Taylor can keep writing this wacky poo poo.
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Jul 15, 2018 02:56
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Yeah the first stretch of Injustice was pretty poo poo, but that's because it was saddled with the mandate of "set up the plot to the videogame." Once that was out of the way the book got a chance to stretch its wings and just do its own thing, and it has become glorious.
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Jul 15, 2018 03:00
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X-O posted:I used to think it was stupid as hell based on panels people were posting  
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Jul 15, 2018 03:07
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Yup, that's perfect Chaz and John characterization right there. I'd be annoyed if their reaction to that image was any different.
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Jul 15, 2018 05:11
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I kind of bounced off Injustice after Constantine wraps up. Was getting a bit too convoluted, and watching Constantine mixing it up with capes has never really sat well with me. But it was all worth it for those panels.
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Jul 15, 2018 10:03
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Infinitum posted:Injustice is so much better than mainline series DC that it's not even funny. I still cannot get over the undeniable fact that the best version of the DC universe is a tie-in comic to a mediocre fighting game with a SO DARK AND EDGY story. It's like if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter:_The_Movie_(console_video_game) were the gold standard for fighting games.
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Jul 15, 2018 12:25
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Like if you want to have a huge multi-character series, having it set in a universe where consequences matter and death is permanent is 100% the way to go. It makes those huge moments MATTER. Nothing annoys me more than a character dying only to have them brought back later to reset the status quo. "Oh no Wolverine/Hulk/Jean Grey/Batman died? Well can't wait to see their return in 6 months time at the conclusion of this arc I guess..."
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Jul 15, 2018 12:37
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radlum posted:I didn't enjoy the fist year of Injustice (prior to the videogame), but seeing that with Booster Gold and Blue Beetle was pretty much amazing, might as well give it another chance. I think reading the whole series is worth it, but in terms of volumes: Year One (Superman and Batman's friendship crumbles): Starts off rough and has some iffy art for most of it, but is an overall strong start with a lot of great moments. Year Two (Superman vs. the Green Lantern Corps): Easily the best year in the original prequel. Quality from beginning to end with an ending so great that they made it canon for the sequel game. Year Three (the magic users): The writer changes in this year, so it's all kind of a mess. It starts well enough, but once Tom Taylor peaces out, the writing starts to spin its wheels as it waits for the final issue to happen. Year Four (the Greek Gods): Has a couple strong moments, but is absolutely the most forgettable section of Injustice. You could skip this one and you'd be fine other than one of Batman's allies being dead. Though it does take Darkseid off the table in an interesting way. Year Five (Bizarro and stuff): Stuff happens. There's no real story here. Just filling up issues until Batman and Luthor come up with the idea from the Injustice game to stop Superman. Ground Zero: Tom Taylor returns to rewrite the game's plot from Harley's perspective. It's a lot of fun, but doesn't add too much if you've already played through the game. Injustice 2: On the level of Year Two, helped in part by the lack of having to work its way to a dystopian situation. Not only one of the better volumes, but far longer than any of the others. There are also some annuals mixed in that are worth checking out, like the Plastic Man one from Year Four and the Injustice 2 one that explains Wonder Woman's deal better than the games ever did. Plus, in a couple days they're starting a Masters of the Universe crossover mini. Sure, why not.
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Jul 15, 2018 16:33
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