|
here's a question for skex: do you think obama and the dems in 2008-2010, after the election, did anything wrong? anything at all? e: capitalcomma posted:I was actually quite satisfied with Hillary's level of incivility. I just wish it wasn't directed at the people she was asking to vote for her. That was probably a mistake. also hillary's entry to politics wasn't as a democrat, it was as a republican Goldwater Girl. Whoops!
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 23:10 |
|
|
Skex posted:You do get that most Democrats get into politics for idealism right? Because they want to make the world a better more just place? Even Hillary Clinton, go hunt down that commencement address she gave in college where she called bullshit on the idea of civility. She was on the defense team for Bobby Seal in the Chicago 5 trial. I was actually quite satisfied with Hillary's level of incivility. I just wish it wasn't directed at the people she was asking to vote for her. That was probably a mistake.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:21
|
|
|
i will attack democraps in the primary, and i will attack them in the general election, and i will attack them even on non-election years. i am relentless
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:23
|
|
|
and you cant stop me
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:23
|
|
|
it's not even about disciplining or attacking the bougie whites who follow this, your average rank and file millenial poc didn't vote period. i would love to see a bunch of inflated politics nerds scream at first generation college graduates struggling to pay off their loans or other folks in dire situations not giving a poo poo about the electoral "process"
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:26
|
|
|
Skex posted:How old were you in 2000? I bought into the same bullshit that you are spouting here. I voted green like a moron (my only redemption being that I live in Texas so it really doesn't matter who I vote for ever) . I voted straight ticket D in 2016 buddy, just like I have ever since I figured out that Republicans are pure evil. It didn't matter because the Democratic candidate sucked rear end, the party is worthless, and all they know how to do is take bribes to never do anything. Even if you and I drag forumsposter 'Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!' by the ear on election day and twist until he votes Democrat up and down the ticket, are we going to personally do that to millions of people? No? Okay then our energy is better spent on activism to get people worth a poo poo elected to positions in the Democratic party where they will be able to inspire tens of millions of people to turn out rather than nagging voters one by one that it's their duty to suck it up and take one for the team because the Republicans won't use lube.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:33
|
|
|
Condiv posted:https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1017106469244809216 also, lol 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:46
|
|
|
Skex maybe you should call up Ms Centrist over in Montgomery and drone a million  about vote blue no matter who
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:48
|
|
|
quote:urging residents of the affluent and liberal suburb “to put principle and pragmatism above purely party politics.” 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 00:53
|
|
|
eric holder and loretta lynch let a bank get away with laundering money for the cartels.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:eric holder and loretta lynch let a bank get away with laundering money for the cartels. That's how we'll finally flip suburban Republicans, dummy
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 01:36
|
|
|
Skex posted:You do get that most Democrats get into politics for idealism right? loving  Yea I'm sure it's for idealism and not the giant paychecks and cushy lobbyist jobs they get once they're out of office.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 01:49
|
|
|
Blaming Red State Voters for whatever lovely thing thing Democrats do is so lazy and dishonest. Alabamans and rural West Virginians don't give a poo poo about bank deregulation or whatever. Democrats getting into office on specific planks and then not doing them, like the guys in California dragging on health care or the Baltimore mayor, do more to gently caress up elections than whatever people stay home. WampaLord posted:loving Personal advancement at the expense of the vulnerable is an ideology. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jul 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 01:56
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:eric holder and loretta lynch let a bank get away with laundering money for the cartels. In 2010, a journalist asked Obama's Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner why they weren't bailing out homeowners. His answer: "Because that would be rewarding the undeserving."
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 02:14
|
|
|
Radish posted:Blaming Red State Voters for whatever lovely thing thing Democrats do is so lazy and dishonest. Alabamans and rural West Virginians don't give a poo poo about bank deregulation or whatever. I got the impression that red state voters still hate bankers, but it's not super important to them (or no one really campaigns on loving over rich people, so it doesn't come up much). I could be wrong or making poo poo up, though. Ideological is very much not the same thing as idealistic. It's a pretty important distinction.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 02:19
|
|
|
Skex posted:What do you think the message that is sent to democratic strategist when Republicans are getting more votes? Others have criticized the rest of your points, but this stood out to me as particularly bizarre. If this is the level of ~game theory~ the voters can expect from the top Democratic strategists, why would anyone ever vote for such a pack of mouth-breathing miserable morons? It doesn't take much more than a cursory look at what drove (young) people towards Bernard Sanders the Crazy Grandpaw, or in a more recent example Ocasio-Cortez, to suss out that maybe people want that hopey and changey stuff they were promised way back in 2008, and will turn out for that. If your take-home message from depressed turnout for Abuela is to court Romney-voting soccer moms even harder, I have some real estate ventures you might be interested in joining!
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 03:01
|
|
|
DrNutt posted:So it sounds like you agree with me then, paying off mortgages is an ineffective half measure and we should probably just nationalize housing and make sure everyone has a place to live! Absolutely. I have no problem with housing as a right. It's absurd that people are basically forced into home-ownership for a modicum of stability because our laws both in the US and Canada are mostly absurdly pro-landlord*, it's absurd to treat home-ownership as an investment/retirement plan, and it's absurd what we allow to be done to the least among us. People like the Sahota family in Vancouver should be adorning lampposts, not making money off desperate people. If not necessarily "nationalizing" housing, we should at least subsidize it at every level to the point it's no longer attractive as an investment. * Especially gently caress all these "no-pets, no-children, you can't smoke even outside on the balcony" precious goddamn idiots who are afraid anything might blemish their "investment."
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 03:23
|
|
|
Skex posted:What do you think the message that is sent to democratic strategist when Republicans are getting more votes? Seriously, let’s walk through the rest of this logic. So if I vote religiously for lovely corporate Democrats, what message does it send the Democratic strategist? certainly not one of “you should pass leftist Economic policy”. No one is advocating boycotting the Democratic Party, hell AOC ran as a Democrat, so did Bernie, that’s great. But there is nothing wrong with refusing to vote for or donate money to lovely dems who will actively work against policy I’m interested in. And yes, that goes all the way up to the presidency. I’d say it applies there even more since the President sets so much of the tone for the party. Maybe we should try it the other way around for once and see if the lovely centrist Dems will fall into line for an anti-racist economic leftist versus the horror show that is the Republican Party when their pocketbooks are on the line.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 05:20
|
|
|
They will run an independent presidential campaign because we need to vote on principles and not party politics. And then sigh with relief when Trump gets reelected because that's all they really wanted anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 05:50
|
|
|
It's difficult to overstate how strongly I reject the decorous notion that there is a "season" for political agency I spit on that
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 05:55
|
|
|
I've updated the op for the first time in a Trump executive session, if you have suggestions for summer reading we could put that in there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 07:33
|
|
|
Skex, let's accept for the sake of argument your premise that parties should move in the direction of the one that gets more votes in a national election. In 2016, the Democratic Presidential candidate received 3 million more votes than the Republican one, and the Democrats won the Senatorial elections by 11 million votes. (They did lose the House vote by 1.4 million, but gained 6 seats.) Shouldn't we, therefore, conclude that the democratic and electorally advantageous thing to do is to move to the left? e: Also, you bring up the election of 2000 as a key formative experience. But Al Gore won both the popular and electoral college vote in 2000, regardless of Green Party votes. The fact that the Republican Party executed a coup via the Supreme Court actually ought to be exhibit a in an argument for why voters are not primarily responsible for US Presidential election results. Mornacale fucked around with this message at 08:31 on Jul 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 08:26
|
|
|
Skex's position is effectively, if not intentionally, that leftward movement can never happen, the Democrats must either move right if they lose, or stay where they are if they win, and this is entirely dependant on whether or not the voters see them to victory. It is impossible for Democratic politicians to do anything except stay the same or become more like the other party, perpetually chasing a bunch of lunatics who are running ever rightward, and dragging the rest of the country with them, even if it leads off of a cliff. Oh gently caress, Skex is the genius who's been calling the shots for the Democrats for the past few decades. No wonder they're so defensive. Edit: Never mind that they're using AOC as an example of someone doing things that actually work, when she did pretty much what they're arguing isn't important, i.e. Making people want to vote for you and getting them excited instead of treating them like they owe you their votes. "You can't do X, you have to do Y, where Y is X but I'm using a lot more words and pedantry to describe it." Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Jul 12, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 10:22
|
|
|
Yeah, it is also why the country in all likelihood is going to be pushed further into outright authoritarianism. If anything it takes both the Republicans and the Democrats, the Republicans to do the "dirty-work"and for the Democrats to essentially cover their rear end and soak up any position opposition into a party that has clearly very little interest in it. The heart of the matter is that centrists fear for their property rights more than they actually fear fascism. They are angry and dismissive at Trump, but they aren't going to fight him tooth and nail like they would an actual leftist. It is also why occasional primary victories are fine (I guess...) but the real battle is going to happen if the centrists fear they are going to lose control (and in that case I think they would rather side the GOP in all honesty).
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 10:50
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/aptaube/status/1017244520046518273 once again the dem establishment proves that "support the lesser of two evils" only applies when their chosen candidate wins
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 14:11
|
|
|
There’s that saying that Democrats fall in love while republicans fall in line, but it forgets that corporate democrats don’t inspire people with “we can’t do that.”
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 14:17
|
|
|
skex knows a lot about politics but understands little of the meaning of what they know, and know and understands nothing about power except how to worship it. this is the most charitable take I’ve got on what seems to be a pretty standard centrist dem.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 14:46
|
|
|
I think Crowley's game here is to hope he can muddy the waters with the legitimately byzantine primary voting stuff. The fact he didnt remove his name as requested is the part where something shady looks like its going on. Also him coming out of his burrow to specifically say AOC is lying and use twitter to say not to beef on twitter is where you can see the miscalculation. If I had to guess, he got pressure from the party to try and nip this in the bud after failing the first time and now this is an attempt to screw over the election to prove leftism will fail either by winning as a third party or ranking it for the party since a Republican is preferable. It's the kind of short sighted idiocy where they are going to lose a ton of voters and gain lots of bad publicity because they would rather lose to fascists than win with actual leftists. It also makes the argument blaming voters for the last few pages even more ludicrous when once again the party decides to gently caress with the general when they lose a primary. This MAY be a misunderstanding but the fact he refused to give up the line is what indicates it's not. I dont think he figured he would straight up get called out on social media since that's so rude. If he continues to stay on the ballot after this blew up that's proof positive that Democrats are absolutely not allies of the left.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:04
|
|
|
Radish posted:
practically speaking, he's got a short window where he can get off the WFP ballot and still claim miscalculation or miscommunication, but he needs to do that ASAP or the game is up and it's just obvious sabotage.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:07
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:practically speaking, he's got a short window where he can get off the WFP ballot and still claim miscalculation or miscommunication, but he needs to do that ASAP or the game is up and it's just obvious sabotage. Yeah exactly. Right now he can say oops we didnt think it was big deal or something but now that's he's very publicly being asked to get off by both the people who put him there and the candidate has supposed to be supporting it will very much look like he's trying to scuttle the election if he doesn't get off his rear end fast.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:13
|
|
|
When is the last day to withdraw? I want to know when it becomes the party ratfucking it's left flank.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:15
|
|
|
I wouldn't be surprised if the plan was to hope no one noticed until it was too late and then "oh well I'm still on the ballot I guess I'll just have to run too and let's let the best person win  "
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:20
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/JoeCrowleyNY/status/1017404605133553665 What a total and complete piece of poo poo. The voters have made their voice clear, Joe, you old rich white man, loving go retire to your life of insane comfort and never try to influence poo poo again!
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:23
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/JoeCrowleyNY/status/1017404605133553665 crowley is such a little weasel e: f;b
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:23
|
|
|
Dude probably got some phone calls the next day from party insiders. Also I really don't think he expected for her to call him out publicly. He's straight up calling her a liar on twitter while crying about beefing on twitter which seems like the move of a person that hasn't thought out their strategy all the way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 15:33
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/JoeCrowleyNY/status/1017408249513955328 https://twitter.com/indiemusicfan9/status/1017420997128081409 lyin joe crowley
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 16:09
|
|
|
Oh ok, he actually is trying to ratfuck AOC.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 16:14
|
|
|
Even if he's totally innocent he couldn't be handling this worse.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 16:15
|
|
|
Next step: WFP needs to publicly offer him a nomination to run for Seneca Falls dogcatcher.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 16:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 23:10 |
|
|
Mornacale posted:Skex, let's accept for the sake of argument your premise that parties should move in the direction of the one that gets more votes in a national election. In 2016, the Democratic Presidential candidate received 3 million more votes than the Republican one, and the Democrats won the Senatorial elections by 11 million votes. (They did lose the House vote by 1.4 million, but gained 6 seats.) Shouldn't we, therefore, conclude that the democratic and electorally advantageous thing to do is to move to the left? The fact that Democratic pols just meekly shrugged and let the election be stolen in the name of decorum and not rocking the boat should enrage any right-thinking person to the left of Scrooge McDuck. It's borderline creepy how easily liberals let that slide. Say what you will about the GOP, they fight for every inch of power like their parents were on the scaffold.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2018 16:26
|
|
