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Make both racial stat mods +1s and it's not a big deal that they could get +3 to a stat at level 4. Now you don't have to neuter the already bad stat-up feats.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:36
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Has anyone made a scaling "player class" enemies tool? By that i mean, if i have an adventure where i want a druid antagonist for level 10s i can set a slider to scale it to level 10 and it will adjust the stats, abilities, spells etc. to be balanced for that level? The books have a couple of examples for a few classes but it would be nice to have something that scales them to your level.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:42
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Splicer posted:Joeslep you got really angry here and I don't know why. This is not a call-out. If my initial post came across as confrontational I did not intend it to be, I was just trying to build on your post and provide additional info for anyone else looking to try it. I don't know why either, since I didn't get angry. I explained my reasoning for all of it, and made one joke post. I'll just give up discussing it and take Great Weapon Master, thanks for all the advice.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:47
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Great Weapon Master seems like the choice to me. Any sources of inspiration or bless in your party should only push you towards it.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:50
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CJ posted:Has anyone made a scaling "player class" enemies tool? By that i mean, if i have an adventure where i want a druid antagonist for level 10s i can set a slider to scale it to level 10 and it will adjust the stats, abilities, spells etc. to be balanced for that level? The books have a couple of examples for a few classes but it would be nice to have something that scales them to your level. Use the monster generator (someone post it I'm on my phone) and give it some druid powers, it'll be more fun and less effort.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:50
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Great Weapon Master seems like the choice to me. Any sources of inspiration or bless in your party should only push you towards it. The Bard has Farting Fire* and I have Reckless Attack, advantage is in the bag. *I'm not fixing that autocorrect.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:53
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I tried to talk the Half-orc Bard out of taking the Tough feat, to no avail. Some of them have trouble keeping track of all their stuff at level 3, adding in two feats every four levels or more is just going to complicate things. Do I also go through every feat to determine if the feat should be a half feat? Admiral Joeslop posted:I just wanted advice on what feat to take. Admiral Joeslop posted:I don't know why either, since I didn't get angry. I explained my reasoning for all of it, and made one joke post. I'll just give up discussing it and take Great Weapon Master, thanks for all the advice.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:59
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Splicer posted:Player classes, especially spellcasters, don't make for great antagonists. A level 10 NPC Druid is more powerful than a level 10 PC druid because PCs are assumed to be spending and consuming their resources throughout the day whereas an antagonist only cares about one fight. To be clear, i'm not looking for a character generator. I'm looking for a monster generator that can make monsters themed after the player classes that can be scaled to be suitable enemies at all levels. Like this but not set specifically at CR 7: 
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Jul 12, 2018 18:02
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I don’t understand why the solution to ASI + Feat that already gives a +1 isn’t just to give the player a +3? All that’s doing then is giving all players a flat increase in power regardless of what feats they’re taking. It’s literally the simplest thing you can do and doesn’t gently caress with any balance beyond what extra +2s already would.
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Jul 12, 2018 18:14
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Admiral Joeslop posted:So a feat that no one would ever take because it sucks turns into a feat that no one ever takes because it sucks. The horror! Counterpoint: players are dumb and are gonna take bad feats sometime
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Jul 12, 2018 18:37
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blastron posted:I don’t understand why the solution to ASI + Feat that already gives a +1 isn’t just to give the player a +3? All that’s doing then is giving all players a flat increase in power regardless of what feats they’re taking. It’s literally the simplest thing you can do and doesn’t gently caress with any balance beyond what extra +2s already would. It lets you get +5 in your main stat instead of +4 at level 4. That is pretty significant in a game where sane encounter design is difficult already and the encounter guidelines given are actively misleading.
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Jul 12, 2018 18:44
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There's not enough granularity in stats. I don't know what the solution is because some people have enough problems adding single digit modifiers so using larger numbers would be even worse, and the dice don't support larger numbers.
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Jul 12, 2018 18:49
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The encounter guidelines given are actively misleading. New to 5e and not DMing but after two encounters I can see my (new to 5e, new to DMing) DM is struggling with encounter balancing. To give an idea we're basically overpowered at Level 1: seven PCs (supposed to be eight) in total with one follower so a party of eight/nine; he gave everyone a feat at level one not just VHuman (who got 2 feats at level one) (I told him not to do this); we have no healers; he got frustrated with how charm person works when his mini-boss got charmed straight away and didn't fight for one round. What's misleading about encounter building? Is there a better resource? Advice I can send him on balancing? I'm more worried about his game enjoyment right now but as an aside I think he's gimped healing too much. Again, no healers in group and he's deleted healing pots from the game. Healing gain during rest works as normal, if I understand correctly (I'll have to clarify with him a bit more on how rest healing works for his campaign). The two encounters have been breezy so I'm not worried about this now but it might make things difficult moving forward.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:14
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CJ posted:There's not enough granularity in stats. I don't know what the solution is because some people have enough problems adding single digit modifiers so using larger numbers would be even worse, and the dice don't support larger numbers. Stats go from 1 to 20 But actually they really only go from 8 to 20 But actually your primary stat only goes from 16 to 20 But actually it only goes from 3 to 5 Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:It lets you get +5 in your main stat instead of +4 at level 4. That is pretty significant in a game where sane encounter design is difficult already and the encounter guidelines given are actively misleading. So you think OK let's put some level based caps on the ability scores. Or some hard caps. Why does anyone but the Rogue/Ranger need 20 dex anyway? They're the dex guys after all. And then you think this is getting complicated. Why not just pick "Very Good", "Good", "Average", and "Poor" ability scores and have them go up based on level? And then you think, since you're always going to set your "Very Good" score to your class primary, you only really need to choose your "Good", "Average" and "Poor" ability scores. And then you think, since your racial statups aren't doing anything anymore, maybe they could determine one of your "Good" ability scores instead. And then you think, maybe they and your race and class and background could help determine your other "Good" and "Average" ability scores as well. And then you think, why are we including the ability scores step at all? And then you are enlightened. Splicer fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 19:15
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CJ posted:There's not enough granularity in stats. I don't know what the solution is because some people have enough problems adding single digit modifiers so using larger numbers would be even worse, and the dice don't support larger numbers. No idiotic stat bonuses being in multiples of two around a base 10. No adding stat bonus to both to-hit and damage. Treat saves with the same dice mechanics as attacks. Use a bonus/penalty system that can be intuitively stacked yet doesn't defenestrate balance by adding diminishing returns. Basically, Shadow of the Demon Lord.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:18
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Perry Mason Jar posted:New to 5e and not DMing but after two encounters I can see my (new to 5e, new to DMing) DM is struggling with encounter balancing. To give an idea we're basically overpowered at Level 1: seven PCs (supposed to be eight) in total with one follower so a party of eight/nine; he gave everyone a feat at level one not just VHuman (who got 2 feats at level one) (I told him not to do this); we have no healers; he got frustrated with how charm person works when his mini-boss got charmed straight away and didn't fight for one round. What's misleading about encounter building? Is there a better resource? Advice I can send him on balancing? You don't need healing potions, they're mediocre in-combat and kinda game-breaking outside of it depending on your wealth - I think the game is better without them. They can be an okay reward if you can't go buy them in a store.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:25
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CJ posted:To be clear, i'm not looking for a character generator. I'm looking for a monster generator that can make monsters themed after the player classes that can be scaled to be suitable enemies at all levels. Well first and foremost that Warlock is bad and really shouldn't be sent against a party. If it is an official "monster" from an official book someone probably should be reprimanded. You DO NOT build enemies like you build characters. Too many enemies are basically spellcasters, saying what "level" of spellcaster they count as and having a CR. Far too often these are terrible. Because a character and an NPC have different needs, and see different amounts of play. So that Warlock is CR 7. But is a 17th level Spellcaster. It can cast Flamestrike or Burning Hands or Stinking Cloud four times using a 5th level spell slot, can cast Finger of Death. Then it can fall back on four Eldritch Blasts per round. It can Levitate at will so just fly up and pelt the party from 120 ft away in the air. Heck it even has resistances a player Warlock wouldn't have. Can use an action to cast False Life at will to get a little temporary hit points, and if it gets away from the combat for a moment can become a completely different person. And this is supposed to be CR 7. So a 17th level caster is CR 7.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:40
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it can do one of those things once until the party will have murdered or neutralized it
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Jul 12, 2018 20:43
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Like my party might have someone lose all their health from one lucky finger of death roll but after that it's done. Feeblemind is worse and shouldn't be a monster spell though it's very thematic. edit: I had no idea plane shift could be used offensively but that one is a silly also. No way does he get to melee range with MY PARTY but that's a real issue. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 20:45
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I feel confident I could kill any CR7 party with that warlock. Wall of Fire alone is probably enough. That's 4 level 5 characters? Easily. Reik fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 21:32
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Reik posted:I feel confident I could kill any CR7 party with that warlock. Wall of Fire alone is probably enough. EDIT: Oh I didn't know what you meant by CR7 party, if that means level 5 it's a more reasonable statement. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 21:37
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:You can do 5d8 damage, once, and they walk out of it, if you go first, assuming the party is in wall of fire formation. If you don't go first or on the second turn, you get hypnotic pattern or charm person or whatever other disables you want. I don't see how one monster without legendary actions could ever be threatening unless it's bag of HP were huge. How much health does a level 5 bard have? On a decent roll 6d8 (cast in a level 5 slot) puts them unconscious as soon as they leave/enter the ring. There's no save if they willingly walk through it. Yeah, just punched it in to Kobold Fight Club, with adjustments 4 level 5 characters would have a "hard" encounter with a single CR 7 monster.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:39
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CR falls apart due to party lineup/how optimal the builds actually are.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:40
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A 17th level caster is a bad fight for a party of level 5s because it'll probably just kill one person and die next turn. The CR guidelines say to be cautious with throwing a single monster at a party if that monster's CR is higher than the party's level for that very reason: it's inherently going to have a large power disparity and break the action economy (more than it's normally broken).
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Jul 12, 2018 21:45
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Why would the Warlock want to get in melee range instead of levitating up in the air outside melee range? Unless they are casting a Concentration spell. Feeblemind has a good chance of outright negating a spellcaster. Finger of Death could put down a single character. Wall of Fire would probably mess up much of the party, if not knockout/kill a number of them, and continues to do damage if they remain in the wall for some reason. Scorching Ray against a single low AC target could seriously mess someone up, 12d6 if all 6 missiles hit. Even against a 7th level party the Warlock is likely to kill one or more of them. It is CR 7, but it is a 17th level caster. Admittedly being a Warlock means that it doesn't get the number of spell slots a 17th level Wizard would have, and it doesn't benefit from the main benefit of being a Warlock.
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Jul 12, 2018 21:49
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The real outcome should be if you manage to kill a level 17 warlock for good it's patron will be loving pissed from all it's plans being ruined from finding someone useful and that's a good hook
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Jul 12, 2018 21:55
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Ryuujin posted:Why would the Warlock want to get in melee range instead of levitating up in the air outside melee range? Unless they are casting a Concentration spell. Feeblemind has a good chance of outright negating a spellcaster. Finger of Death could put down a single character. Wall of Fire would probably mess up much of the party, if not knockout/kill a number of them, and continues to do damage if they remain in the wall for some reason. Scorching Ray against a single low AC target could seriously mess someone up, 12d6 if all 6 missiles hit. How many spell slots it has doesn't matter. It has 4 right now and no way does the fight last 4 rounds. It gets to do one or two of those things before it's disabled, almost guaranteed, at least with my party. They don't really have any melee characters fwiw, I dunno how typical that is, but levitating wouldn't do a whole lot and is prone to being dispelled. Failing a finger of death save would most likely kill one person. (If it's the cleric that's fine, he's not the disabler, and if it's not they get revivified the next turn.) He could pretty well dodge a disable with dark one's own luck but my group could muster 2 attempts in the first round. So maybe he gets a second turn if he goes first(unlikely) and those both fail(somewhat likely) but I don't really see how he gets a third. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 12, 2018 |
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Jul 12, 2018 22:06
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Even when I put up bosses considered "deadly" by the CR standards for my group, yeah, 2 rounds at most.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:10
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Firstborn posted:Even when I put up bosses considered "deadly" by the CR standards for my group, yeah, 2 rounds at most.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:24
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Splicer posted:Player classes, especially spellcasters, don't make for great antagonists. A level 10 NPC Druid is more powerful than a level 10 PC druid because PCs are assumed to be spending and consuming their resources throughout the day whereas an antagonist only cares about one fight. So start the antagonist with some resources consumed?
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Jul 12, 2018 22:29
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Subjunctive posted:So start the antagonist with some resources consumed? Or don't build enemies like PCs because it's a bad idea
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Jul 12, 2018 22:30
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You’re better off reskinning a demon/devil
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Jul 12, 2018 22:34
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Subjunctive posted:So start the antagonist with some resources consumed? How is that any different from them having less in the first place? Hint: it's not, and it has no effect on the issue that all they care about mechanically is that one fight so they have no excuse to not just go nova immediately. The real solution is: don't make NPCs the same way players make PCs. It's too time consuming for something that doesn't warrant it.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:34
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God, the 5e cr system is so weird.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:42
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All of these are great points, which is exactly why i was asking if anyone had made player class themed monsters i could use instead. I used that Warlock last week and it sucked.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:47
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I think single monsters just don't work in this game and they certainly need legendary actions/resistance if nothing else.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:51
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Gharbad the Weak posted:God, the 5e cr system is so weird. it just doesnt work at all, its a big piece of poo poo i only glance at for a rough idea. it also just breaks down the higher you go.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:52
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Always give your centerpiece bad guys at least 1 legendary resist and 1 legendary action that shakes up its or someone elses location on the map. Every session. It rules and makes a regular fight kinetic and rad.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:57
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I think single monsters just don't work in this game and they certainly need legendary actions/resistance if nothing else. yup, also if your party has any clue how to play the game making important enemies have maximum hit die health totals becomes a must because fights will make the players feel anticlimactic and not even remotely challenged as the bad guy crumbles halfway through round 2 or 3 having done little to make it interesting.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:57
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I know these answers aren't helpful CJ, because the plain answer is "no". Surely somewhere out there someone has made a monster of each class at each level but it's a total crapshoot tuning how hard they are and there's no way to guarantee it'll be strong or weak, let alone automatically scale it to party level. It especially doesn't work if you are trying to make them a solo enemy with no legendary actions because one action per 4+ of yours is never gonna win out unless it insta-kills them, neither of which is great.Novum posted:Always give your centerpiece bad guys at least 1 legendary resist and 1 legendary action that shakes up its or someone elses location on the map. Every session. It rules and makes a regular fight kinetic and rad.
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Jul 12, 2018 22:58
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