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Skwirl posted:You say poo poo like that and now I have to know Don’t say I didn’t warn you. He peaced out after Bruce got Barbara pregnant while he was away at school. Yep.
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Jul 12, 2018 06:20
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Madkal posted:Dick is the best Nightwing but I have mixed feelings as him as Batman. On the one hand he made a great Batman in GMos run, but I kind of like the idea of Nightwing being a rejection/growth beyond the Batman ideal and it feels like Dick was groomed to take over for Bruce but that isn't what he wants. You make it sound like there is stiff Nightwing competition. I don't know that I would consider Battle for the Cowl particularly good, but I really like Dick's monologue at the end. It kinda perfectly sums up his go as Batman. Regardless of him getting out on his own and doing everything, it is his legacy to inherit. And if he runs from that, it's not likely to go well for anyone. X-O posted:Don’t say I didn’t warn you. And also Barbara miscarried that baby. I wanna say as a kid I just thought Nightwing was dead.
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Jul 12, 2018 06:30
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Barbara mentions him in Return of the Joker and just implies he quit right?
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Jul 12, 2018 06:35
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The worst Robin isn't Jason Todd, it's the fanfiction Robin that is also Harley Quinn.
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Jul 12, 2018 07:08
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Dick is the best Robin, because he's the keystone of DC's legacy characters. Bruce took a kid who went through a similar tragic experience and raised him to be a well adjusted, confident person. He was the little kid palling around with the older heroes and views Wonder Woman and Superman like an aunt and uncle. He teamed up with a group of sidekicks and became his own hero and is probably viewed as a mentor to the newer heroes just starting out. And that's all because Bruce Batman'd the gently caress out of his upbringing. He knew when to step in and be a dad and more importantly when to walk away and let Alfred deal with it. None of the other Robins will ever be as important. Tim was the only other good Robin, but like Dick I think he would've flourished with an identity outside of the Bat family. There was a rumor that Chuck Dixon wanted Tim to get fed up with Bruce's bullshit and quit being Robin. Tim would then go on to be the new Blue Beetle and that sounds amazing. Bruce is definitely one of those people who has a We Do Things My Way mentality. And while that works for some people (Dick) it doesn't work with everybody (Tim.) Having Tim quit being Batman's sidekick to Ted's partner and then eventually a third and this time unique identity would've made him standout a lot more. None of the others really strike me a good Robin, but Jason, Damian and Stephanie deserve a mention. Carrie was a one off and I kinda handwave her as an Elseworld's Robin. Batman is a grieving little boy stuck in an adult's body. He never knew how to deal with his parent's death and has thrown himself so completely into the world of crime fighting and subsequently subjected himself to so much poo poo he can't get out. I don't like sad, morose, weepy Batman, nor do I like happy, smiling, fun Batman. I like my Batman gruff, alone and a workaholic constantly distracting himself from his huge personal problems. I like the Batman who adopts children because he subconsciously wants a family and giving him a real son kinda mucks that up, but whatever. It's comic books. The point is I like Batman who's in a Batman Box™ and a Robin as a mirror to Batman. 1.) Batman is a fitness monster driven to near physical perfection so that he's always ready for anything. Dick is a natural acrobat, a perfect crimefighter and probably the only other person on the planet with a cardio routine that can rival Bruce's. 2.) Batman is also a forensic genius. His fractured mental state allows him an insight into the criminal mind. Tim is no slouch with the detective skills and actually figured out Batman's secret identity. Whereas Batman is a genius he's also stuck in his Batman Box™ and can only see things from that perspective. Tim doesn't have that limitation. 3.) Batman has a slew of personal problems that have never been dealt with. I imagine his mindscape to be a huge ugly tapestry of bad emotions woven together under the identity of Batman. Sheer will is the only reason he hasn't gone crazy or had a mental breakdown. Jason Todd isn't Batman, he wasn't even a good Robin. He was a rude little poo poo from the streets that never really got fleshed out as a character. That's why he's most memorable as the Robin who died. Since then he's gone from actual villain to anti-hero with guns a la The Punisher, but whereas Frank Castle has the potential for good stories, Jason Todd doesn't. This is why no one likes angry helmet Robin. 4.) Batman believes that "criminals are a superstitious cowardly lot. So [his] disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts." Batman has cultivated a personality based around fear and respect. Damian is also a rude little poo poo who wants to be feared and respected. The problem is that he's a little psychopathic ten year old who's hard to like except as the punchline of a joke. He's on the path of Jason 2.0 5.) Batman will never give up. No matter how physically sapped, or mentally drained or emotional traumatized he is he will never stop. He is a dangerous, scary motivated man. He shares that connection with Barbara Gordon. We're told that her origin is that of a feisty redheaded daughter / niece of Jim Gordon, but that's not true. She was once a happy go lucky crimefighter that fought alongside one hero and even dated another, but then she was shot by the Joker. Everything before the wheelchair was her origin story. Her perfect little world went away and the harsh reality of life changed her into a real character. That was her Batman moment. Not even being paralyzed stopped her from being a superhero. She just switched gears and became a new type of hero. That's Batman level of commitment. And that's also why Stephanie was a bad Robin, because she would've been much better as Batgirl. They had the potential to mimic Bruce and Dick's relationship with Barbara and Stephanie but that never really happened. TL;DR: I really like Batman and his Batfamily.
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Jul 12, 2018 09:59
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One of my favourite little things about Dick Grayson as Batman is that we finally got a Bats who doesn't have the exact same silhouette as Superman. It makes no sense for a man who's part ninja and part black ops to be built like a tank. Having someone who is a bit slimmer and more athletic take up the cowl was a good change of pace, IMO.
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Jul 12, 2018 10:48
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Jason chucked that rapist off a ledge when I was an impressionable kid so I’m gonna be honest, I’ll always like him a bit.
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Jul 12, 2018 11:06
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X-O posted:I agree, but there's gonna always need to be a Batman and Dick is a great Batman and personally I think a better Batman than Bruce. I think better than any other Robin would be, including Tim who is my favorite DC character. It's not just you. If I had any say on things I would have made it Dick Bat, Damien Robin, and Bruce gets to Bat-god it up using what's-his-name's chair out in space. Shake up the goddamn status quo. The only downside to that is we wouldn't get Super Sons in that equation (at least not with that title). And there might be story beats to the father/son relationship we get now between Bruce/Damien that don't work as well with Dick/Damien. But that can also open different story paths where Bat-god is absentee dad and Dick is doing a better job parenting.
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Jul 12, 2018 14:28
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Steph was never really given a fair shake at being Robin. That's all I can contribute really, outside of saying that Dick is the best (as both Nightwing and Batman). I did love the Dick-Bats, Damian-Robin era, short as it was.
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Jul 12, 2018 15:41
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JordanKai posted:One of my favourite little things about Dick Grayson as Batman is that we finally got a Bats who doesn't have the exact same silhouette as Superman. It makes no sense for a man who's part ninja and part black ops to be built like a tank. Having someone who is a bit slimmer and more athletic take up the cowl was a good change of pace, IMO.
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Jul 12, 2018 15:44
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Skwirl posted:Black Mirror is pretty good. I'm just pissed he spent less time as Batman than loving Azrael, who was named either after an Angel who betrayed God or Gargamel's' loving cat who was constantly trying to eat the Smurfs.
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Jul 12, 2018 17:39
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SonicRulez posted:And also Steph is Batgirl. I am very okay with that being Batman's status quo for a long time if anyone wants to Thanos snap that into existence. Is Cass technically Black Bat at that point? Because I do like that name better than Orphan.
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Jul 12, 2018 18:43
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Dawgstar posted:Is Cass technically Black Bat at that point? Because I do like that name better than Orphan. I don't think she was until Bruce came back and started Batman Inc.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:02
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Carrie is the one I relate most to for whatever reason. I think part of it is that by the time she comes along Batman doesn't have a whole lot to offer her, in several senses of the word, but she manages to extract what she can from him.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:02
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Is this preference for Dick (lol) in part because the body of work involving him is much larger?
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Jul 12, 2018 19:29
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Scaramouche posted:Is this preference for Dick (lol) in part because the body of work involving him is much larger? Maybe but he's just so intrinsically interesting and relatable. The biggest part of my love for him comes from watching a character grow up in a medium that is totally about status quo and stagnation. We saw him go from being 11 to leading the Titans, the Outsiders, and the Justice League. And I'm not a huge Batman fan and I love that half of what he does is to say gently caress you to Bruce.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:43
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I never could relate to Dick as Robin because when I read Batman Tim was already Robin.
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Jul 12, 2018 19:43
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The first intro for me to Dick Grayson was actually before I read Batman comics in reruns of the '66 Batman show as a kid. When I started reading comics a little later Tim had just become Robin and then soon after had his own book, which was my favorite DC book, and Dick was already Nightwing and I really liked his book too. So during my formative comic reading years they were already firmly established in those roles and were two of my favorite books from DC at the time. I mainly grew to love the Bat Family in the comics through them and not so much through Bruce which is why I'll always like both of them more than Bruce.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:04
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I've only read Wally Flash, Bart Flash, and Silver Age Barry Flash. Why do people dislike Barry?
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Jul 12, 2018 20:05
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Halloween Jack posted:I've only read Wally Flash, Bart Flash, and Silver Age Barry Flash. Why do people dislike Barry? Me personally? Because I loved Wally and then Johns brought him back and replaced Wally. I hold a grudge based on that. Maybe it's not fair but that's the way it is. He's also just really bland to me. Especially so after Wally. In the TV show it's a little more rational, it's because he's literally a monster and causes way more harm than any of his villains.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:08
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Halloween Jack posted:I've only read Wally Flash, Bart Flash, and Silver Age Barry Flash. Why do people dislike Barry? Mostly because DC threw away both a great send-off death and a very enjoyable and popular Flash to make Barry the Flash again for no other reason than that's how it was when Geoff Johns was a kid.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:09
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X-O posted:Me personally? Because I loved Wally and then Johns brought him back and replaced Wally. I hold a grudge based on that. Maybe it's not fair but that's the way it is. He's also just really bland to me. Especially so after Wally. He's seriously the worst on the TV show.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:15
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purple death ray posted:Mostly because DC threw away both a great send-off death and a very enjoyable and popular Flash to make Barry the Flash again for no other reason than that's how it was when Geoff Johns was a kid. What irks me most about this is that Johns spent years doing so much great work with Wally, and he's one of the main reasons I love Wally so much! And then he just flushed it away to bring back Barry.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:18
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Halloween Jack posted:I've only read Wally Flash, Bart Flash, and Silver Age Barry Flash. Why do people dislike Barry? Nothing personal against Barry but I grew up with Wally and I know Wally. If you were to ask me about Barry Allen pre CoIE I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about the character at all, either personality wise or anything else for that matter. For me it was Wally, so to have Barry come back and be treated as the One True Flash felt annoying. Added to that Johns tendencies to make his childhood likes into the ideal form of that character (just look at Hal Jordan) seemed like a kick in the teeth for Wally fans. At least with Green Lantern I had read a few Hal Jordan GL comics before Kyle took over. With Barry it was a character that had been dead for nearly 20 years coming back and being treated as the greatest Flash ever.
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Jul 12, 2018 20:24
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Heathen posted:Dick is the best Robin, because he's the keystone of DC's legacy characters. Bruce took a kid who went through a similar tragic experience and raised him to be a well adjusted, confident person. He was the little kid palling around with the older heroes and views Wonder Woman and Superman like an aunt and uncle. He teamed up with a group of sidekicks and became his own hero and is probably viewed as a mentor to the newer heroes just starting out. And that's all because Bruce Batman'd the gently caress out of his upbringing. He knew when to step in and be a dad and more importantly when to walk away and let Alfred deal with it. None of the other Robins will ever be as important. Sorry, but I stopped reading at the second sentence where you claimed the orphaned vigilante crime fighter was well-adjusted.
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Jul 13, 2018 00:59
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Didn't Dick cheat on his fiance with Barbara Gordon then leave a wedding invitation on Babs dresser when he snuck out of bed in the middle of the night (and this is Oracle Babs where she's parapalygic).
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Jul 13, 2018 01:02
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Skwirl posted:Didn't Dick cheat on his fiance with Barbara Gordon then leave a wedding invitation on Babs dresser when he snuck out of bed in the middle of the night (and this is Oracle Babs where she's parapalygic). Yeah except he didn't sneak out. 
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Jul 13, 2018 02:57
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Dick is so maladjusted by being raised by Bruce Wayne that sex is the only intimacy he knows so it's the only way he can break hard news. Fuckin' lovely as hell to do to Babs, but I bet Kory either knew about it or didn't care.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:08
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TwoPair posted:Yeah except he didn't sneak out. Tim wouldn't have done that to Stephanie.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:22
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I just found Barry to be very bland and generic, he had more character dead than alive, and he caused Flashpoint. Wally was also Flash in the JLU cartoon and he was great! I quite liked the Nu52 Buccellato/Manapul run though, but that was more on Manapul's excellent art.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:37
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Morbid curiosity, I picked up the Secret Wars collection on a whim, are any of the tie-ins worth it? Last Days, Battleworld, War Zones, etc?
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Jul 13, 2018 04:38
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Thaddius the Large posted:Morbid curiosity, I picked up the Secret Wars collection on a whim, are any of the tie-ins worth it? Last Days, Battleworld, War Zones, etc? Some of the elseworld-type minis were pretty fun-- Runaways, 1872, Infinity Gauntlet, Siege, and Thors were all terrific. Civil War and Weirdworld had their moments. As for the rest I think it depends on what you're nostalgic for, which weird continuity cul-de-sacs you'd like to revisit. The only one I remember being out-right bad was Ultimate End, but I'm sure there were many I skipped or just found too bland to recollect. As for the Last Days branded stuff, I don't know, generally the series that were strong beforehand ended on strong notes. Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers and Ms. Marvel were the standouts that I recall.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:45
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Thaddius the Large posted:Morbid curiosity, I picked up the Secret Wars collection on a whim, are any of the tie-ins worth it? Last Days, Battleworld, War Zones, etc? Most of them are decent but if you don't care about the characters you don't need them. The only ones that really have an impact on the main Secret Wars story are Last Days was just various characters coming to terms with their own mortality, except surprise, none of them ended up dead. Still if you liked the character it's probably worth reading.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:46
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ecavalli posted:I'm kinda surprised at the lack of love for COIE here. It's not nearly as convoluted as people make it out to be, and while it hasn't aged particularly well -- which I blame on the myriad other Crises that followed after and ran the "universe changing event" idea into the ground -- it was a monumental creative effort in its era. It's fine as an attempt to just smash some action figures together and Perez's art is amazing (any excuse to have Perez draw giant crowd scenes is worth it), but there's really only a few issues of it worth reading. The deaths of Supergirl and Barry Allen were both perfect swan songs to characters that were going to be shelved. The real problem with Crisis was the follow up where nobody knew what they were doing. Don't worry, they straightened all that out with Zero Hour and DC never completely upended their entire line again after that.
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Jul 13, 2018 04:47
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Hm, fair enough then. I don’t really have much a connection to the characters/lines beyond whatever is already in the pop culture zeitgeist, but the main Secret Wars stuff was pretty fun, albeit a touch sparse, which is why I was thinking of reading some of the tie-ins, to get some more context and stories out of the setting. Thanks!
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Jul 13, 2018 04:49
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Archyduke posted:As for the Last Days branded stuff, I don't know, generally the series that were strong beforehand ended on strong notes. Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers and Ms. Marvel were the standouts that I recall. That Ms. Marvel Last Days was so very good. Star Lord and Kitty Pride was a ton of fun, and Renew Your Vows was good, even if the setting was overly dystopic.
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Jul 13, 2018 05:13
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Siege was amazing, Thors was pretty good too. I'm liking the current Quicksilver series but now I'm confused. What's the deal with his and Wanda's origins? What is their relationship to Magneto now? Is Polaris still Magneto's daughter or was that retconned too?
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Jul 13, 2018 05:45
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Last Days Loki and Silver Surfer were pretty good if only so you learn the fun fact that both of them survived the multiverse collapse and rebirth and how they pulled it off. Oh and as far as Secret Wars goes, I'd highly recommend Masters Of Kung Fu. It really has nothing to do with the ongoing plot of SW but it's fun as hell. howe_sam posted:Star Lord and Kitty Pride was a ton of fun, and Renew Your Vows was good, even if the setting was overly dystopic. I'm still mad that Star Lord and Kitty Pryde ends with them finding Rocket Raccoon's tail and Star Lord asking if there's any cloning place around, then when he shows up at the climax of Secret Wars, he's not accompanied by an army of Rockets. Last Days Loki and Silver Surfer were pretty good if only so you learn the fun fact that both of them survived the multiverse collapse and rebirth and how they pulled it off. Oh and as far as Secret Wars goes, I'd highly recommend Masters Of Kung Fu. It really has nothing to do with the ongoing plot of SW but it's fun as hell. howe_sam posted:Star Lord and Kitty Pride was a ton of fun, and Renew Your Vows was good, even if the setting was overly dystopic. I'm still mad that Star Lord and Kitty Pryde ends with them finding Rocket Raccoon's tail and Star Lord asking if there's any cloning place around, then when he shows up at the climax of Secret Wars, he's not accompanied by an army of Rockets. radlum posted:Siege was amazing, Thors was pretty good too. Wanda and Pietro were revealed/retconned to be High Evolutionary experiments when Avengers 2 came out because they can't be mutants and Avengers, don't be crazy. The High Evolutionary also tells them they were never Magneto's kids. Polaris still is. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Jul 13, 2018 |
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Jul 13, 2018 05:46
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Tim was definitely Robin when I was a kid, but the Teen Titans cartoon was also happening. That's pretty much entirely why Dick became my Robin. Then from there I just jumped even further in.X-O posted:Me personally? Because I loved Wally and then Johns brought him back and replaced Wally. I hold a grudge based on that. Maybe it's not fair but that's the way it is. He's also just really bland to me. Especially so after Wally. This.
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Jul 13, 2018 06:20
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Last Days Silver Surfer was great. Escaping the collapse of the multiverse, Doom as the new Eternity, and Dawn booping the sun into existence will stick with me for a while.
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Jul 13, 2018 06:48
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