TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

LatwPIAT posted:

She was Ventrue and would hire male Uber drivers to ask them questions about how OK they were with transwomen. If they were insufficiently accepting, she would eat them. If they were sufficiently accepting, she would have sex with them.

The way the whole thing was written it was unclear at best whether she used Dominate to have sex with the sufficiently accepting taxi drivers, and whether her criteria for "sufficiently accepting" was "would have sex with me".

Oh if it's that one, I'm pretty sure she was also pre-op and would quiz them on a bunch of things, ending with "Will you have sex with me" and if they said no, she'd dominate and rape them anyway. The only benefit actually saying "yes" had is that she wouldn't kill you afterwards.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 14:54

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:11

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Kurieg posted:

Oh if it's that one, I'm pretty sure she was also pre-op and would quiz them on a bunch of things, ending with "Will you have sex with me" and if they said no, she'd dominate and rape them anyway. The only benefit actually saying "yes" had is that she wouldn't kill you afterwards.

Wow. I went and paid for the whole seat and only needed the edge. Ugh.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 14:58

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

quote:

Also of note, even if they said no or didn't want it, said character could mind control them with Disciplines until they wanted it. So they are basically a murderer AND a rapist.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:02

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

How the gently caress does he get any work.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:14

Saguaro PI: Mar 11, 2013; Totally legit tree

Sion posted:

How the gently caress does he get any work.

Lots of folks think he's a genius because he's one of those dumb people who can frame his idiocy with a lot of words. That and D&D With Pornstars means he has this libertine artist image despite the fact he's an rear end in a top hat who communicates like a robot designed to always fail the Turing Test.

If that was a question regarding his behaviour, it's the fact that this hell hobby has a lot of people who don't give a poo poo about awful behaviour if they're not the target.

Saguaro PI fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Jul 13, 2018

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:18

Serf: May 5, 2011

not only is that some horrifically offensive poo poo, its also extremely poorly written

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:20

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Serf posted:

not only is that some horrifically offensive poo poo, its also extremely poorly written

Right? It's like a less self-aware Mark Millar.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:21

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Serf posted:

not only is that some horrifically offensive poo poo, its also extremely poorly written

There's a part where you're running away from somebody. And while you're running away you're describing in a text message to your friend how, exactly, you're running away. Paragraphs at a time.

There's also the infamous "Lying in it's own smear" line.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:22

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Serf posted:

not only is that some horrifically offensive poo poo, its also extremely poorly written

This is basically nuWW in a nutshell- it's hard to say if they're more incompetent or offensive.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:25

HazCat: May 4, 2009

Those... screenshots(?) look like actual, literal garbage and I really hope no one is going to tell me they are from a product people pay actual money for.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:29

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

HazCat posted:

Those... screenshots(?) look like actual, literal garbage and I really hope no one is going to tell me they are from a product people pay actual money for.

Prepare to be disappointed.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:30

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

HazCat posted:

Those... screenshots(?) look like actual, literal garbage and I really hope no one is going to tell me they are from a product people pay actual money for.

Bad news!

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:30

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

if a book I buy ever uses full page art as a backdrop for a tiny fake cellphone screenshot I swear I'll go mental!!!

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:31

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Oh my god I just worked out who Avery is meant to be holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiit gently caress this guy.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:35

Desiden: Mar 13, 2016; Mindless self indulgence is SRS BIZNS

While it is a sign of the lovely world we live in that this is a product some people paid money for, I think its good to keep in mind how few people in fact did so. Even at release, with articles in a number of social media sites, steam trackers show the number of people buying and playing it in the dozens, not hundreds or thousands. After the first month, its not even that much. You could poo poo out a 99 cent flash game in a day and stand a good chance of doing as well as, if not better, than nuWWs product lines to date.

Of course, I stand ready to be blown away during the AMA when they finally let us know what stage of production their "guaranteed within 5 years" netflix programming is at.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:48

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Don't forget the Werewolf: The Apocalypse game that they announced before development even started. And the press conference pic where everyone looks like they'd rather be dead than associated to the project.

https://twitter.com/WerewolfVGAME/status/961566529505583106

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:54

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Sion posted:

How the gently caress does he get any work.

he pretends to be progressive while hiding his harassment in a way that means that the people who run the tabletop industry don't see it because most of them are white men and he doesn't go after those;
nerd culture openly encourages people who "just say what they're thinking" as part of its underdog narrative so he gets away with with making death threats and saying slurs and people explain it as "oh, he just values honesty, he's actually a good guy;"
the industry pays like poo poo and has zero job security, so people don't want to or can't afford to "make waves" by speaking out if they want to keep being a professional part of it;
amazingly, it turns out that middle-aged white dudes who think marketing their games to appeal to Nazis is good don't actually care that he's a queerphobic serial harasser.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 15:59

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Lemon-Lime posted:

amazingly, it turns out that middle-aged white dudes who think marketing their games to appeal to Nazis is good don't actually care that he's a queerphobic serial harasser.

The nuWolf press release they put out after the accusations were levied against him were worded such that they didn't find any "New or factual accusations" against him.

Which is some damning word choice.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 16:01

Loomer: Dec 19, 2007; A Very Special Hell

HazCat posted:

Those... screenshots(?) look like actual, literal garbage and I really hope no one is going to tell me they are from a product people pay actual money for.

That's also Zak's work, as a visual artist.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 16:39

head58: Apr 1, 2013

Is Ken Hite still involved in Vampire5?

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:28

Serf: May 5, 2011

head58 posted:

Is Ken Hite still involved in Vampire5?

of course

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:33

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

head58 posted:

Is Ken Hite still involved in Vampire5?

hahahahahaha of loving course he is

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:34

Baron Snow: Feb 8, 2007

Did anyone watch the Twitch stream?

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:46

gourdcaptain: Nov 16, 2012

Baron Snow posted:

Did anyone watch the Twitch stream?

It's tonight at 11:30 PM EST. Really.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 17:54

Vox Valentine: May 31, 2013; Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

Sion posted:

Oh my god I just worked out who Avery is meant to be holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiit gently caress this guy.

Yeahhhh if nobody else is in the know Avery is more or less supposed to be Avery Alder of Buried Without Ceremony/Monsterhearts, a woman who Zak hates and hates enough to not even be like "legally this is some other woman" in his poo poo writing except for when he's like "what no that's totally not a person I hate, where's your proof?" when someone calls him on it.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 18:29

DocBubonic: Mar 11, 2003; Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis

When it comes to Zak harassing people, what kind of evidence do they have that he isn't a harasser? Is it just that they ask him and people friendly with him if he's a harasser? Or do his victims refuse to say anything in fear of more harassment?

# ? Jul 13, 2018 19:21

Darwinism: Jan 6, 2008

DocBubonic posted:

When it comes to Zak harassing people, what kind of evidence do they have that he isn't a harasser? Is it just that they ask him and people friendly with him if he's a harasser? Or do his victims refuse to say anything in fear of more harassment?

His preferred method of harassment is by getting other people to attack his target, so there is a layer of deniability in there that, no matter how tenuous, lets other lovely people go, "Aha, but you see it is not absolutely proven that he uses his followers as a weapon because he did not say it outright while under oath."

# ? Jul 13, 2018 19:28

The Lore Bear: Jan 21, 2014; I don't know what to put here. Guys? GUYS?!

Hostile V posted:

Yeahhhh if nobody else is in the know Avery is more or less supposed to be Avery Alder of Buried Without Ceremony/Monsterhearts, a woman who Zak hates and hates enough to not even be like "legally this is some other woman" in his poo poo writing except for when he's like "what no that's totally not a person I hate, where's your proof?" when someone calls him on it.

gently caress zak s and his lovely everything.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 19:41

Free Gratis: Apr 17, 2002; Karate Jazz Wolf

gourdcaptain posted:

It's tonight at 11:30 PM EST. Really.

It already happened. I wasn�t able to watch so I�m waiting for the twitch archive to update on their channel, but early scuttlebutt is that they apologized for the gender sidebar in Changing Ways.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 19:41

Serf: May 5, 2011

White Wolf just told the alt-right to f*ck off

quote:

White Wolf has been riding a rough PR storm of late. Problems started when they announced Zak Sabbath was a writer on Vampire: the Masquerade. Sabbath divides people; he has some very loyal fans (some of whom may have crossed lines while defending him) while others accuse him of manipulative and hateful harassment. It�s worth noting that controversial authors and consultants have been appointed by other RPG publishers, including Wizards of the Coast for Dungeons & Dragons, and that White Wolf subsequentially investigated Sabbath and did not conclude he should be removed from the project.

quote:

One fan, �vonigner�, put a blunt ultimatum to him.

Will you openly tell the �gently caress SJWs sensitivities� alt-righters and neo-nazis who have been using RPGs as a recruiting grounds since Age of Conan that the WOD is NOT for them ?�

Jason Carl and White Wolf did so. He began by explaining that both vampires and Nazis are monsters. He noted that including some (brief) neo-Nazi references in the game are examples of types of vampires people might encounter and not endorsements.

In fact, he went further than that. If you�re part of a hate group like the neo-nazis then they don�t want your money. You�re not even welcome in the community.

But Carl admits they made mistakes.

The �1488� example in the mechanics was a mistake which made them upset. The numbers have been changed and when the dog whistle was called out the preview was removed from their site.

Other mistakes include the use of �triggered� with the Brujah. Carl says that it was an error, another one that made them feel bad, and they�ve learnt that some people use it a pejorative while others encounter it in very real and important mental health sessions. It has been removed.

quote:

Another user, BasileosAlexios, tried to flip the question, asking;

Jason will you disavoew Antifa and other segregationist left wing movements just the same as you disavoewed right wing hate movements or not, that�s a simple question

Carl disagreed it was a simple question and refused to tackle it as such. However, he was unequivocal in that White Wolf and the Vampire team would reject and oppose any group that used hate speech and promoted an agenda of hatred.

lotta

in here

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:09

Megaman's Jockstrap: Jul 16, 2000; What a horrible thread to have a post.

lmao at "some people have said Zak S causes harassment" uh if you actually spent 30 minutes doing any kind of research journalism you would just say "the dude does harassment", fuckin worthless Internet "he said she said" journos strike again!

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:11

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

There's an awful lot of hand-wringing for that "told the alt-right to gently caress off" headline.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:13

Ratoslov: Feb 15, 2012; Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

Yeah, that reads to me like this is gonna be a continuing problem.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:18

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

lol if you had any lingering goodwill for nuWW at this point.

Like...it breaks my heart, honestly? It really does. Mage:TAw was how I cut my teeth on tabletop RPGs, and nWoD stuff remains some of my favorite settings to this day. It's just edgelords and nazi-sympathizers taking yet another thing I love away and I hate it.

And I know it was never good and it's always kind of had a history of it but it was never this bad I feel like? Or maybe the bad parts were just easier to ignore.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:21

Lemon-Lime: Aug 6, 2009

Serf posted:

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:25

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

i love how that article puts 'harassed women' and 'asking a company to disavow nazis' as equivalents

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:25

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Reene posted:

lol if you had any lingering goodwill for nuWW at this point.

Like...it breaks my heart, honestly? It really does. Mage:TAw was how I cut my teeth on tabletop RPGs, and nWoD stuff remains some of my favorite settings to this day. It's just edgelords and nazi-sympathizers taking yet another thing I love away and I hate it.

And I know it was never good and it's always kind of had a history of it but it was never this bad I feel like? Or maybe the bad parts were just easier to ignore.

"New World Of Darkness" is now "Chronicles of Darkness" which is made by Onyx Path Publishing. So far White Wolf Publishing has kept their hands off of CofD because it straight up has no relation to their new "One World of Darkness"(See what they did there?).

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:26

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

ON BLAST: White Wolf just let out a deep sigh and made an 'ehnnnn' noise while twisting its hand at nazis

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:27

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Kurieg posted:

"New World Of Darkness" is now "Chronicles of Darkness" which is made by Onyx Path Publishing. So far White Wolf Publishing has kept their hands off of CofD because it straight up has no relation to their new "One World of Darkness"(See what they did there?).

I'm aware of the publishing situation thank you, you do not need to explain it to me.

The entire franchise is still tainted by this poo poo, nevermind that the editions I'm talking about were published before OPP existed, and OPP has its own loving problems.

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:48

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# ? May 26, 2024 15:11

Jeb Bush 2012: Apr 4, 2007; A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

moths posted:

As for the globalsim, post-Gehenna WoD filled the "sinister conspiracy" slot with a second inquisition. Where before the PCs were part of the biggest conspiracy (jyhad and masquerade), they are now opposed by an international cabal that secretly acts behind the scenes to exterminate the vampire race.

plenty of other damning stuff but this is not convincing at all

sinister global conspiracies are a common trop of anti-semitic literature but they're not exclusive to that genre, and even if you do believe it is an inherently anti-semitic theme, it's silly to act as if it is a break from previous WOD stuff, which also featured lots of sinister global conspiracies as antagonists

# ? Jul 13, 2018 20:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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