TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Andrast: Apr 21, 2010

Mirthless posted:

What a shock, people are partisan about political issues

How much hand wringing and public acknowledgement do you make of all the lovely things our politicians do?

Does your unwillingness to call out left political figures in equal amounts to your callouts of right political figures make you a dyed in the wool communist, lusting for the overthrow of the government and the persecution and eradication of Christians? (maybe ironically yes, but obviously no)

What the gently caress are you even arguing about?

# ? Jul 15, 2018 21:02

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# ? May 24, 2024 17:40

Lemniscate Blue: Apr 21, 2006; Here we go again.

Andrast posted:

What the gently caress are you even arguing about?

"Both sides are bad and I'm smarter than you."

# ? Jul 15, 2018 21:05

Mirthless: Mar 27, 2011; by the sex ghost

Andrast posted:

What the gently caress are you even arguing about?

It should be pretty clear if you read the thread? I didn't think it was an ambiguous statement

Lemniscate Blue posted:

"Both sides are bad and I'm smarter than you."

definitely not :shrug:

Let's be clear: Ken Hite is Wrong About Politics, but him holding the (incredibly uncontroversial) opinion that the Clinton Foundation is probably kinda sketchy does not make him "one of the bad ones", nor does merely holding conservative viewpoints make him (or anyone) a bad person on it's own

Mirthless fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jul 15, 2018

# ? Jul 15, 2018 21:08

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

The lesson here is people feel uncomfortable talking about a guy with a history of writing cthulhu and horror books for tabletop rpgs they liked who also happens to be a right-wing shithead in his private life

# ? Jul 15, 2018 22:01

Darwinism: Jan 6, 2008

The problem with highlighting the Clinton Foundation specifically is the exact same as saying that there are "bad people on both sides" - because while that can certainly be possibly a factually true statement, that is not what the statement is actually about when it is being made.

So when people bring that poo poo up it isn't just to make sure everyone knows everything is poo poo to some degree, it's to drive a completely different message home and we have to be aware of that poo poo nowadays instead of just participating in dogwhistles.

# ? Jul 15, 2018 22:22

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Also, uh, the Clinton Foundation's books have been examined by third parties and came up as "pretty drat clean," so deciding that there must be some corruption somewhere you don't know about is pretty much a case of "I want there to be, so there is."

# ? Jul 15, 2018 22:23

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Mirthless posted:

nor does merely holding conservative viewpoints make him (or anyone) a bad person on it's own

Yeah it kinda does.

# ? Jul 15, 2018 22:40

Darwinism: Jan 6, 2008

Yeah modern conservatism is pretty monstrous by default, in no small part because of the outright denial of how firmly rooted in oppression it is.

# ? Jul 15, 2018 23:07

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

Rand Brittain posted:

Also, uh, the Clinton Foundation's books have been examined by third parties and came up as "pretty drat clean," so deciding that there must be some corruption somewhere you don't know about is pretty much a case of "I want there to be, so there is."

I mean the core issue there is basically the exact summary of the 2016 election, tbh. Clinton's charity was, legally, pretty legit because they've been doing this poo poo for ages and in many cases literally wrote the rules they have to follow. That doesn't change that under the guise of 'charity', all perfectly legal and ok, they did poo poo like actively oppose Haiti raising its minimum wage from 'pennies' to 'a few more pennies' while exploiting that cheap labor.

Meanwhile the Trump Foundation was just an overt tax dodge where his entire family was on the board that never met and half the budget went to big paintings of Trump.

Like, both are actually pretty hosed up and an example of our corrupt system, but because Clinton was a little smarter in her fraud she gets a pass because holy poo poo the other guy might as well have named his charity "THE FRAUD CHARITY FOR TAX CRIMES"

# ? Jul 15, 2018 23:44

Brother Entropy: Dec 27, 2009

Andrast posted:

What the gently caress are you even arguing about?

hi meet mirthless, the goon who never met a derail too pedantic for him to pedant over

# ? Jul 15, 2018 23:46

Serf: May 5, 2011

ken nite literally thinks pinochet was good. that's really all you gotta know

# ? Jul 16, 2018 02:51

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Pinochet is pretty good in my upcoming dictator wrestling league pbta game.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 03:25

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

As a child of two worlds, Batista is OP

# ? Jul 16, 2018 03:26

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

Please ease up on the US politics chat in the TG industry thread, unless it's about Jeffrey's upcoming dictator wrestling league pbta game, thanks!

# ? Jul 16, 2018 04:21

Qoey: Jun 2, 2014

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Pinochet is pretty good in my upcoming dictator wrestling league pbta game.

I'm more intrigued than I feel I should be

# ? Jul 16, 2018 04:34

Reene: Aug 26, 2005

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Pinochet is pretty good in my upcoming dictator wrestling league pbta game.

I...I would play this, holy poo poo. Someone please stat them out for World Wide Wrestling.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 05:18

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

ADOLF HITLER
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 72 kg
Choose one of the following moves at level 1:
- When you are killed by a time traveler, roll another character. You don't get to play as Hitler.

Your move white wolf.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 05:31

Goa Tse-tung: Feb 11, 2008; ;3; Yams Fan

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

ADOLF HITLER
Height: 5' 8"
Weight: 72 kg
Choose one of the following moves at level 1:
- When you are killed by a time traveler, roll another character. You don't get to play as Hitler.

Your move white wolf.

ADOLF HITLER can always coup de grace ADOLF HITLER

# ? Jul 16, 2018 12:35

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

White Wolf posted:

As we promised in our AMA we are beginning a new program to engage more fully and positively with the White Wolf community. Our first action in honoring that commitment is to announce Jason Carl as EVP of Community Development, and Matthew Dawkins as Senior Community Director, effective immediately.

One of their most important goals will be to keep you better informed about everything that happens with White Wolf, and to give you more opportunities to participate in community activities. Together, Jason and Matthew will run a program that includes community communications, outreach, fan clubs, events, product previews, video teasers, LARP, and streaming video.

And we are very happy to tell you that their first streaming project is The Gentleman�s Guide to V5, featuring Matthew Dawkins in the role he popularized on YouTube. The Gentleman Gamer returns very soon on our twitch.tv channel, and he�ll guide you through everything a neonate needs to know about these modern nights, offering hints of the content you can come to expect in this new edition of Vampire, V5.

We are also adding Community Managers to our team to service and answer our fans and customers better and more rapidly. We intend to recruit diversely, and encourage anyone with a love for the World of Darkness and experience in managing communities, fandoms, and events to approach us by emailing community@white-wolf.com with a resum� and personal statement. This team will build up over the next months.

You can reach Jason and Matthew on Twitter, Facebook and thru all our White Wolf social media channels and by emailing community@white-wolf.com. We ask that you be a bit patient with them this week as they get up to speed, but they�re both looking forward to hearing all your ideas and suggestions for how to grow, strengthen, and celebrate the White Wolf community.

Biographies

Jason Carl, VP of Community Development
Jason has been most recently our V5 Producer. As a longtime member of the World of Darkness community he is well known as the CEO of By Night Studios and a contributing writer to Mind�s Eye Theatre books and host of several The Grand Masquerade events

Matthew Dawkins, Senior Community Director
Matthew is known for his YouTube channel The Gentleman Gamer, his role as co-host of the Onyx Pathcast, and his works as a writer and developer for Onyx Path Publishing and White Wolf Entertainment, along with many other publishers of tabletop games. Matthew has a firm record of community management, enthusiastic personal engagement, professional public relations skills, and hiring diverse teams on projects under his development. He will be overseeing streaming, community management and communication while continuing his creative duties for us and other companies.

Crosspostin' from the WoD thread.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 22:06

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

There's no way this community stuff wasn't in the works before some furry decided to go on a one-dog crusade against nuWW. My only question is why it wasn't there to begin with?

# ? Jul 16, 2018 22:30

Sion: Oct 16, 2004; "I'm the boss of space. That's plenty."

Nuns with Guns posted:

There's no way this community stuff wasn't in the works before some furry decided to go on a one-dog crusade against nuWW. My only question is why it wasn't there to begin with?

Not a lot of companies have the cash to have someone operate as a full time community developer. Even less companies have the foresight.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 22:42

Ratoslov: Feb 15, 2012; Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!

So I don't know these guys, but given WW's recent behavior I can only assume there's something wrong with them.

# ? Jul 16, 2018 23:32

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Ratoslov posted:

So I don't know these guys, but given WW's recent behavior I can only assume there's something wrong with them.

Jason Carl worked on 3e D&D. That makes him actually Satan

# ? Jul 17, 2018 02:32

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Sion posted:

Not a lot of companies have the cash to have someone operate as a full time community developer. Even less companies have the foresight.

That's fair. Incompetence and a lack of capital are pillars of tabletop game publishing, after all.

Shifting into non-WW-but-kinda-related material for a minute, there's a great article up on Waypoint from a few months ago reviewing the Dragons Conquer America rpg. Discussion of it derailed the TG Kickstarter thread a while ago with a debate on the ethics of a roleplaying game that expected collaboration between the Spanish conquistadors and the indigenous people they mass-murdered. Both sides are playable characters. There's also a "Tolerance Skill".

The reviewer, Dia Lacina, sees some serious issues with it (bolding mine):

quote:

Tabletop roleplaying games are vehicles for navigating the tumultuous intersection of identities and beliefs. In sharing these collaborative storytelling sessions, players can interrogate ourselves, and our world. We can explore possibilities and support each other through our darkest fears and failures.

But RPGs are still just a framework. A series of systems and settings designed to adjudicate action and simulate facets of reality. Like all systems, they are unquestionably political�even if those politics are murky and contradictory.

...

Described as a �living fantasy role playing setting,� Dragons Conquer America invites players to travel back to the �16th Century, when European invaders reached American soil and unleashed a genocidal conquest��albeit with dragons. Even this description is complicated. Europeans are correctly identified as invaders, their conquest is correctly called genocidal�but it still describes these inhabited pre-Columbian lands as �American soil.�

Throughout their promos. Europeans are described as genocidal, greedy, violent, conquerors, but still as intrepid explorers. For every artwork depicting the vibrant grandeur of pre-Columbian Tenochtitlan, there�s a sexed-up Mexica priestess with a ski-slope nose and enviable Restylane pout. Mesoamerican religious traditions are acknowledged as distinct and with the same gravity as Judeo-Christian beliefs.

However, they�re still fraught with offensive tropes like blood rituals and human sacrifice. While slavery does make an appearance in both factions, it�s not treated with distinctiveness or depth. European women characters can choose the unique class Dragon Rider (which is exactly what it sounds like), whereas indigenous women characters can choose Courtesan (which is exactly what it sounds like). The game doesn�t diminish �the great domain we know today as the Aztec Empire,� but in the same breath as it describes the �daring campaigns of Captain Hern�n Cort�s.� There�s nothing daring about a desperate white man willing to slaughter an entire nation to satisfy his need for gold and fame.

...

G�mez Quintana expressed the intention that players would examine �both sides� of the conflict (the first two adventures are split between a Mexica party and a Spanish one). From a design perspective the most successful groups would include a mixture of European and indigenous player characters. It�s part of the way Burning Games is trying to temper players from simply indulging in genocidal rampages in a fantasy of Europe�s conquest of South America.

Another way is the system for a Tolerance Skill, which G�mez Quintana says is, �a tool the GM has to get intolerant characters into trouble: You shouldn�t have insulted your native guide if you wanted him to take you somewhere, or you shouldn�t have spoken down on a spanish lady if you needed her help. The more tolerant your character is, the more control you have over him and the less likely you are to get into trouble just because you are not reasonable.�

...

With the systems that currently exist, there�s just no way to account for how players will act. Its politics are just too contradictory, and its encouragement of indigenous characters fighting monsters hand in hand with the architects of their genocide is a disaster.

G�mez Quintana tells me, �Does this mean I can literally stop people who buy this game from playing as horrible people and behaving like monsters? Although the game is not about that, no, I cannot.� And while it is literally impossible to stop players from playing at colonial violence, I think even messy games can guide players more successfully than Dragons Conquer America does.

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Jul 17, 2018

# ? Jul 17, 2018 02:34

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

"There is a sexy female preistess wearing almost nothing in front of you. You call her a whore unless you succeed on your Charisma+Woke roll"

# ? Jul 17, 2018 02:46

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

fuckin lol

# ? Jul 17, 2018 03:45

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Yeah this is the level of sensitivity I expected from the pitch.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 04:22

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

he coulda just not put the invaders as a playable and valid faction if he wanted to massively cut back on the odds of people being imperialist racist assholes

# ? Jul 17, 2018 04:41

Leraika: Jun 14, 2015; Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.

sexpig by night posted:

he coulda just not put the invaders as a playable and valid faction if he wanted to massively cut back on the odds of people being imperialist racist assholes

but then who would ride the dragons

# ? Jul 17, 2018 06:24

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

people who beat up the colonialists and took them, possibly with a cool quest to like tame the dragon or win their friendship?

# ? Jul 17, 2018 06:28

Leraika: Jun 14, 2015; Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.

Xiahou Dun posted:

people who beat up the colonialists and took them, possibly with a cool quest to like tame the dragon or win their friendship?

Congrats, you've already made a better game than DCA.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 06:39

canyoneer: Sep 13, 2005; I only have canyoneyes for you

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

Pinochet is pretty good in my upcoming dictator wrestling league pbta game.

"I did not hit him with a folding chair, and if I did, I do not remember it."

# ? Jul 17, 2018 07:17

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

TBH I think that the Colonial period is an interesting historical setting for a fantasy tabletop RPG, but I think Elephant and the Macaw Banner (Bandeira do Elefante e da Arara) does a better job at it and did an amazing on its research of portraying Amerindian and African culture and mythology. While I do admit it sometimes does whitewash the reality of colonization in Brazil it in fact even shows the possibility of the Natives turn back the Portuguese and Dutch or even for a creation of an independent Quilombola state of former slaves.

BTW read the F&F of Desafio dos Bandeirantes, another great classic with a similar thematic.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/cyphoderus/the-challenge-of-the-bandeirantes/

# ? Jul 17, 2018 14:40

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

Plutonis posted:

TBH I think that the Colonial period is an interesting historical setting for a fantasy tabletop RPG, but I think Elephant and the Macaw Banner (Bandeira do Elefante e da Arara) does a better job at it and did an amazing on its research of portraying Amerindian and African culture and mythology. While I do admit it sometimes does whitewash the reality of colonization in Brazil it in fact even shows the possibility of the Natives turn back the Portuguese and Dutch or even for a creation of an independent Quilombola state of former slaves.

BTW read the F&F of Desafio dos Bandeirantes, another great classic with a similar thematic.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/cyphoderus/the-challenge-of-the-bandeirantes/

yea it absolutely is rich with potential, but it's for sure one of those things where if the colonizers are playable at all you have to be a Dances with Wolves kinda thing where you're leaving your colonial peers behind to join the locals or be sympathetic to their causes or something. You don't need to make the invaders full on Orcs who just want to rape and burn because reasons, but you just can't pretend 'I'd like my home to not be occupied by these strangers who are stripping us of our wealth and dignity' and 'but I'd really like that wealth and dignity' are equally valid arguments for a hero to support.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 16:16

Qoey: Jun 2, 2014

Xiahou Dun posted:

people who beat up the colonialists and took them, possibly with a cool quest to like tame the dragon or win their friendship?

I'd play the hell out of this. I could see a Mexica character stealing a European dragon and going on a fucken rampage with their animal best buddy.

Now I'm sad that this isn't a set part of that setting.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 19:46

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Qoey posted:

I'd play the hell out of this. I could see a Mexica character stealing a European dragon and going on a fucken rampage with their animal best buddy.

Now I'm sad that this isn't a set part of that setting.

I suggest Scion.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 19:52

Cessna: Feb 20, 2013; KHABAHBLOOOM

Qoey posted:

I could see a Mexica character stealing a European dragon and going on a fucken rampage with their animal best buddy.

New Fire may be the game for you.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 20:17

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Plutonis posted:

TBH I think that the Colonial period is an interesting historical setting for a fantasy tabletop RPG, but I think Elephant and the Macaw Banner (Bandeira do Elefante e da Arara) does a better job at it and did an amazing on its research of portraying Amerindian and African culture and mythology. While I do admit it sometimes does whitewash the reality of colonization in Brazil it in fact even shows the possibility of the Natives turn back the Portuguese and Dutch or even for a creation of an independent Quilombola state of former slaves.

BTW read the F&F of Desafio dos Bandeirantes, another great classic with a similar thematic.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/cyphoderus/the-challenge-of-the-bandeirantes/

If nobody else has said so, I really appreciate these glimpses into the Brazilian TRPG scene. That game does indeed sound a lot better than DCA.

# ? Jul 17, 2018 22:22

Qoey: Jun 2, 2014

Mors Rattus posted:

I suggest Scion.

Cessna posted:

New Fire may be the game for you.

Thank you for the recommendations! I always appreciate tooling through new systems. I've read a bit of Scion before, but New Fire is completely new to me, and I like it!

# ? Jul 18, 2018 04:32

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# ? May 24, 2024 17:40

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

I am sure that this is just an optics thing, and that the guy is actually fine, but one of my favorite crazy things to come out of White Wolf is that their opening salvo in an attempt to repair relations with their not horrible internet part of their fanbase is to engage a guy who calls himself the Gentleman Gamer.

# ? Jul 18, 2018 06:56

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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