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got any sevens posted:What's the difference? Probably the former on account of the bigger screen and discrete GPU, but I’m not sure about how the improved keyboard or CPU performance differences shake things out. I’ve got a 2013 15” that has been my daily driver longer than any of my previous computers at this point (2007 core 2 duo MacBook- 4 years, 2011 MacBook Air- 3 years, both still functional and replaced for upgrade/use case reasons) and I’m still super pleased with it to the point where I don’t think I’ll be replacing it anytime soon unless some unfortunate event or accident forces my hand. Feel out the physical differences in-store for yourself but ever since Apple brought out the first retina design the gulf between the 13” and 15” in terms of heaviness or portability has been negligible. The physical difference between the MBP line and MacBook is way bigger, so if I were MBP shopping today I’d probably go 15” and get the extra real estate.
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Jul 19, 2018 05:27
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Gay Retard posted:I know a bunch of people are pissed about the 15” i9 throttling, but I’m confident I’m going to be pretty happy with a 13” quad-core with 16GB of RAM and a 512 GB SSD after using a MacBook Air since 2011. What are you going to do with the extra cores?
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Jul 19, 2018 05:35
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redeyes posted:I fix macs and I have a decent idea if things are fixable or not, even if I can't do it. Maybe you can help me: 15" MBP 2013 with GT750m, worked ok until yesterday when it wouldn't wake from sleep. Forced a shutdown, now it won't boot. Fans spin up and stay running at low rpm, screen stays off (neither video output or backlight), no chime, no output to HDMI. Magsafe light seems to work normally (green then orange). Tried multiple SMC and PRAM resets and left battery disconnected. Caps lock light works and the machine seems to go to sleep and wake up when I close the lid (fans go on and off). No history of liquid or other damage but I previously had intermittent shutdowns that were solved by removing a TB kext. Had screen and top-case replaced by AASP 1-2 years ago. I did some benchmarks that I usually don't, wonder if this stress pushed it over the edge. Time for a new logic board or is this worth bringing to a repair shop?
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Jul 19, 2018 10:35
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Theophany posted:MSI reckon a peak TDP for the very same i9 chip is closer to 150W than 45W. The (similar, slightly lower clock) i7 part peaks out at closer to 90W; add an extra 400MHz for the part that Apple is actually using and you're at maybe 120W peak load TDP? Um... that's not even close to what you're making it out to be. MSI posted:The Boost TDP was estimated from media reviews and internal tests with Intel XTU simulation. When all Cores up to highest clock, the TDP was much higher than basic TDP reference. Italics are mine. The 'K' at the end of i9-8950HK means it's an unlocked, overclockable processor. MSI is bragging that they can make a gamerbrick overclocked laptop with the cooling system to handle what happens when you override factory PCU (power control unit) limits so that all six cores will run at 4.8 GHz simultaneously forever, and the bad translation is misusing "TDP" to mean "the power draw we measured while defeating TDP limits". Apple lets PCUs run at factory default settings, so in the MBP the 8950HK should obey its factory 45W TDP rating. The thing you have to realize is that TDP isn't enforced by design, it's actively controlled by a feedback loop. The PCU is a microcontroller which reads sensors that measure power use and temperature, and in response to those inputs, generates control signals to set voltages and frequencies. People who have measured PCU behavior in various Intel CPUs have generally found that it's quite accurate at limiting average power draw to the chip's TDP rating. (Or to whatever override limit is set in an unlocked 'K' model CPU.) Theophany posted:They seem to be pretty much what I'd expect. The the i9 is a 6C/12T chip, just like the i7 but with higher clock and boost frequencies so the idea that they have the exact same TDP just doesn't make sense. My understanding is that the major difference between the two is that i9 has a much richer platform feature set, not a physical difference that makes it more thermally efficient for a given workload. Your understanding is wrong on both counts. For the features, you can compare the chips using Intel ARK: https://ark.intel.com/compare/134899,134903. Spec and feature differences are highlighted in blue. The i7 actually has the richer platform feature set, but a smaller cache, though in truth these differences are just down to how Intel programs feature disable fuse bits (they're the exact same silicon design). But more to the point, the i9 should be more thermally efficient. Process variation is a real thing. Coffeelake mobile i7 and i9 hex-core chips are all the same design, but variation means some of the wafers (and even subregions of particular wafers) yield better chips. Like basically all semiconductor companies, Intel does bin sorting during test, so they can sell these better chips for more money. One of the metrics it's possible to sort on is power efficiency, and it's quite an easy bet that the parts which end up getting sold as i9s are the most power efficient. Is it possible that Intel hosed up in this generation and isn't following their past rather strong guarantees about what TDP ratings mean? Sure. Is it possible that Apple hosed something up and there's something slightly off with the thermal system in the 2018 so that now it's throttling a 45W CPU when last year's model didn't? Sure, why not. But please save me from having to effortpost more  to correct bad misinformation, I'm tired and cranky and poo poo
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Jul 19, 2018 11:01
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Some liquid (orange squash) got spilled on my MacBook Pro with Touch Bar. It wasn't tons, but it was enough to be a concern. I instantly powered down and let it dry out upside down over a fan for 48hrs. I've been using it for a few hours today and so far, so good. Just a few questions about what this... means? Is there any way to check if any damage has occurred (I know sometimes corrosion doesn't knacker things right away)? Am I likely to have blown my eligibility for the recently announced keyboard repair program should I encounter problems in the future (guessing the wee moisture indicators are pretty sensitive in there, even if no damage has occurred)? Basically looking to make the best out of a potentially bad situation / cover myself as best as possible for the future. The good news is that I do most of my work on an iMac and everything I do on this machine lives in Dropbox anyway so no concerns about data loss or backups or anything. I guess the best I can probably hope for is that the machine is fine but I prob can't trade-in when it's time to upgrade.
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Jul 19, 2018 11:11
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BobHoward posted:The thing you have to realize is that TDP isn't enforced by design, it's actively controlled by a feedback loop. The PCU is a microcontroller which reads sensors that measure power use and temperature, and in response to those inputs, generates control signals to set voltages and frequencies. People who have measured PCU behavior in various Intel CPUs have generally found that it's quite accurate at limiting average power draw to the chip's TDP rating. So what you are saying is that it is good at thermal throttling? I don't doubt the CPU doesn't break past 45W average, otherwise the system would shut down as heat built up. The problem seems to be that it can't maintain base clocks with a full load *and* the 45W limit, necessitating more cooling, which gaming laptop manufacturers seem to understand. More cooling = more power. That's why these chips generally aren't used in thin & lights... edit: Either way, even AppleInsider has confirmed the throttling independently https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/07/18/tested-thermal-conditions-in-the-2018-i9-macbook-pro-dramatically-hampering-performance So either the CPU runs hotter than 45W at base, Apple's cooling solution can only handle 45W at peak and not sustained (or can't handle 45W at all), or a combination of both. Pivo fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 11:47
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BobHoward posted:Um... that's not even close to what you're making it out to be. It's speculation but from various reports in the last months, intel definitely seems to have caused Apple some headaches that affect the 2018 line and could've been a factor for Apple to not go with Intel in the future. (eg no LPDDR4 support, delayed 10nm release)
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Jul 19, 2018 11:48
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Media Bloodbath posted:It's speculation but from various reports in the last months, intel definitely seems to have caused Apple some headaches that affect the 2018 line and could've been a factor for Apple to not go with Intel in the future. (eg no LPDDR4 support, delayed 10nm release) Those ARM rumors are making more and more sense.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:35
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Tenterhooks posted:Some liquid (orange squash) got spilled on my MacBook Pro with Touch Bar. It wasn't tons, but it was enough to be a concern. I instantly powered down and let it dry out upside down over a fan for 48hrs. I've been using it for a few hours today and so far, so good. I would guess if there's any kind of residue under they keyboard that they keys would fail/stick. I've seen Macbook keyboards with pop or sugary drinks spilled and it doesn't take much sticky stuff in the butterfly mechanism to hang it up. It's very hard to get in there with a q-tip or something and clean it because the little hooks break very easily. This is assuming the Apple store will actually look at the keyboard before replacing it.
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Jul 19, 2018 14:26
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Spilled coffee killed my old 2009 MacBook Pro's keyboard a few years back so definitely pay attention for any issues since I imagine that butterfly switch is a lot more fragile.
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Jul 19, 2018 14:33
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Bob Morales posted:I would guess if there's any kind of residue under they keyboard that they keys would fail/stick. I've seen Macbook keyboards with pop or sugary drinks spilled and it doesn't take much sticky stuff in the butterfly mechanism to hang it up. It's very hard to get in there with a q-tip or something and clean it because the little hooks break very easily. The repair is $750. My sister’s MacBook downed a glass of Merlot.
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Jul 19, 2018 14:40
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benisntfunny posted:The repair is $750. My sister’s MacBook downed a glass of Merlot. Better than her drinking that shoe varnish.
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Jul 19, 2018 15:12
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Gay Retard posted:Those ARM rumors are making more and more sense. Two years ago I was worried that Apple would switch to in-house ARM processors for the whole mac line, these days I'm worried that they won't. They're already getting ready to lock down the platform with T1/T2, might as well go all the way to reap the benefits with low power/high performance chips.
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Jul 19, 2018 15:20
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ratbert90 posted:Better than her drinking that shoe varnish. lmao
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Jul 19, 2018 15:23
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eames posted:Maybe you can help me: 15" MBP 2013 with GT750m, worked ok until yesterday when it wouldn't wake from sleep. Yeah its time for a new Logic board. I'd need to cross reference the internal logic board model number, but I *think* that is basically a failed graphics soldering job. It might be the one APL fixes by adding a rubber pad to the top of to smash against the bottom casing. Pretty sure it's not software anything.
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Jul 19, 2018 15:50
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Bob Morales posted:I would guess if there's any kind of residue under they keyboard that they keys would fail/stick. I've seen Macbook keyboards with pop or sugary drinks spilled and it doesn't take much sticky stuff in the butterfly mechanism to hang it up. It's very hard to get in there with a q-tip or something and clean it because the little hooks break very easily. Ah, that's reassuring, I guess. Even though the juice wasn't massively sugary, all the keys are totally fine and it doesn't even faintly smell or anything like that. I'll take that as a tentative indication that nothing got too far inside.
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Jul 19, 2018 15:59
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Those crazy temperature-related performance spikes are very real. I just tested it out with my new Pro with the i7 with a couple of games, and it'll be a nice 60fps for about a minute, and then the drops start happening. Like, I can't even play Diablo 3 on this thing. The center chunk where it's just shooting up and down is me idling in the lobby in Fortnite. I was watching the FPS counter bounce back and forth between 60 and 1.  edit: I could live with some normal throttling, but it's like it's halting the processor altogether every few seconds. It's totally unusable. I didn't get this as a gaming machine, but it doesn't bode well. It's a well-worn cliche, but how does this kind of thing make it past any reasonable testing? Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 19:14
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redeyes posted:Yeah its time for a new Logic board. I'd need to cross reference the internal logic board model number, but I *think* that is basically a failed graphics soldering job. It might be the one APL fixes by adding a rubber pad to the top of to smash against the bottom casing. Pretty sure it's not software anything. Aww, ok. I figured it's the GPU but online resources suggested no chime is CPU which is odd because it "feels" functional just without video output. I ordered one of the last 2015 in stock (this time without dGPU yay!) and even managed to get a small rebate, hopefully I can just plug the 2013's old SSD in there because it has twice the storage though it'll be a bit slower. Wikipedia Brown posted:Those crazy temperature-related performance spikes are very real. Yeah that is really, really bad. My 2013 15" looked like this when the TIM dried out and the HSF was clogged with lint. What do temperatures look like? I'm curious if this is a result of temperature or system power limitation. The CPU frequency should go up when you set a FPS limiter or lower the resolution. CPU/GPU share a heatpipe so if the GPU consumes less power the CPU gains thermal headroom. Anyway, this is the trashcan Mac Pro all over again. They design an enclosure for a certain thermal load expecting it to decrease as time goes on and then the opposite happens. In the case of the MP they just stopped updating it, the MBP does get the chips but throttled to the point where it is hardly an upgrade except on the spec sheet. eames fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 19:36
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Yeah, I stupidly didn't screenshot the whole window, but it looked like it was closely tied to temperature.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:38
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So wait, can we summarize all this throttling stuff? The new MBPs are actually garbage performance-wise?
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Jul 19, 2018 19:40
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So glad I resisted the urge.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:55
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So, since my MacBook 2010 idea didn’t work, any reason not to grab a 2014 on Swappa or eBay? They have the old keyboard that I like, and as long as they have 16 gigs of ram, should run photoshop just fine right? Any thing dangerous I should be looking out for?
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Jul 19, 2018 20:01
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Why not grab the 2015? Then you can get the Force Touch trackpad and the old style keyboard.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:04
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Just bought a refurbed iMac from the Apple Store directly... do they come with keyboard and mouse?
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Jul 19, 2018 20:08
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I wonder how many Retinas they are seeing this week at the Genius Bar as people realize they need to keep them working for another 2 years.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:13
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Proteus Jones posted:So glad I resisted the urge. Ya, apple has free of charge to this day replaced my 2015 15in’s keyboard, battery and screen, this thing isn’t going anywhere for a while.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:13
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Proteus Jones posted:Why not grab the 2015? Then you can get the Force Touch trackpad and the old style keyboard. 2014’s are cheaper, but that’s a good point about the trackpad.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:15
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really wishing the macbook pro was just a little thinner right now
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Jul 19, 2018 20:18
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Word on the street is that the new MBPs don't throttle nearly so badly if you use an app like https://www.crystalidea.com/macs-fan-control and janitor the fan curve to actually blow more air than Jony wants you to.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:20
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https://www.geekbench.com/blog/2018/07/macbook-pro-mid-2018-throttling/ To test whether this is the case, I wrote a quick stress test. The stress test emulates a developer workload by building Geekbench 4 from scratch ten times in a row. Each iteration is timed separately to see if performance changes over time. The stress test takes between 30 minutes and 60 minutes to complete. I ran the stress test on several Macs in the Primate Labs office, including a MacBook Pro (Mid 2018) with an i7 processor. While I don’t have access to an i9 model yet, I expect the i7 to throttle similarly to the i9 when running multi-core tasks.   Even under sustained load, the i7 processor was running at 3.0-3.1 GHz, well above the processor’s base frequency of 2.6 GHz. So what’s going on here? Why does this test not replicate the throttling seen in other tests? Part of the issue is the test themselves. Premiere uses both the CPU and the GPU, while Geekbench only uses the CPU. If the GPU contributes significant heat, then that will cause the CPU to throttle more aggressively. It’s possible the decrease in performance observed in Premiere is due to a combination of new AMD GPUs with new Intel processors, or to the new AMD GPUs themselves. My recommendation? If your work doesn’t involve long-running tasks that are CPU- and GPU-intensive (such as Premiere) then the new MacBook Pro should provide a considerable increase in performance. Otherwise, it might be wise to wait until more performance data is available.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:34
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The guys over at iFixit jizzed on a bunch of new Macbook keyboards to see if they keep out the dust https://ifixit.org/blog/10319/butterfly-keyboard-teardown/ 
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Jul 19, 2018 20:45
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allegedly from an internal service document:macrumors posted:Caution: The keyboard has a membrane under the keycaps to prevent debris from entering the butterfly mechanism. Be careful not to tear the membrane. A torn membrane will result in a top case replacement.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:53
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Linguica posted:Word on the street is that the new MBPs don't throttle nearly so badly if you use an app like https://www.crystalidea.com/macs-fan-control and janitor the fan curve to actually blow more air than Jony wants you to. Thanks, I'll give that a try. I don't care if it sounds like a jet engine if it'll help. edit: tried it, made a massive difference. Thanks for the heads up! But also what the hell are y'all doin' apple. 
Shart Carbuncle fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 21:36
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landgrabber posted:really wishing the macbook pro was just a little thinner right now 
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Jul 19, 2018 22:04
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Maybe Apple is deliberately making these Intel MBPs lovely so when they come out with their own chip they can say its better while also going to a new working thermal design 
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Jul 19, 2018 22:25
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Maybe they're making lovely computers because they don't care about computers anymore 
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Jul 19, 2018 23:55
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You're out of your loving mind if you preordered a $2000+ dollar laptop without waiting for reviews
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Jul 19, 2018 23:56
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Can't you just return it for a full refund tho? Your buyers remorse is fully covered right?
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Jul 20, 2018 00:07
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You can return it, but I’m buying a MacBook 2015 this fall and waiting three years till iOS has matured enough so I can just buy their iPad pros like they want at that point. And use my iMac for everything else of course (they seem fine upgrading those and haven’t compromised them yet)
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Jul 20, 2018 00:15
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LionArcher posted:You can return it, but I’m buying a MacBook 2015 this fall and waiting three years till iOS has matured enough so I can just buy their iPad pros like they want at that point. And use my iMac for everything else of course (they seem fine upgrading those and haven’t compromised them yet) That’s not a terrible idea. Just as an experiment, a while ago I tried to see if I could replicate my work flow with an iPad Pro. To my surprise I was able to manage about 90% of my day to day work on the iPad. Really everything minus some VMs I run locally from time to time and knocking out some Python scripts. And I solved the latter by setting up a dedicated host to RDP and/or ssh into from the iPad for those tasks. It was pretty eye-opening. Honestly the only thing keeping me tethered to my 15” rMBP is the screen and the ability to use an external monitor for when I use PyCharm.
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Jul 20, 2018 00:21
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