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That's not entirely wrong, although I doubt I'd agree with whoever created it. I've always seen Bernie as a rather uninspired, one-note speaker, not because of his platform, but because of his bizarre habit of connecting literally anything he's asked about back to the three goddamn things he won't shut up about. It doesn't matter if you talk to him about gun violence, racism, Russian meddling in our election, whatever -- it always seems to connect back to the banks loving people over, and the plight of the white working man who showers after work instead of in the morning (?), like the world's most boring game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has, on the other hand, shown that you can focus on a very similar platform while being a more engaging speaker who's able to talk on a wider variety of topics. I think Bernie Sanders was a necessary first step in terms of amplifying the important issues that he cares about, and getting a whole bunch of people ready to hear more about them, but now it's time that other progressives step into the space he's created, and push the ball further down the field. Imagine someone as rhetorically gifted as Barack Obama, but without any of his policy flaws. That's what we need, and somewhere out there, that person exists.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:17
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there is no racial justice without economic justice.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:20
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We don't even need to talk about people being shot and had remained in office instead. Personally I think the single most cataclysmic event of the 20th century that led to all of our modern troubles was when they switched Roosevelt's vp from Wallace to Truman.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:28
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Groovelord Neato posted:there is no racial justice without economic justice. You do understand that's not an argument for ignoring racial justice, right?
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Jul 19, 2018 13:32
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PT6A posted:You do understand that's not an argument for ignoring racial justice, right? kinda odd that the only people suggesting that talking about economic justice means ignoring racial justice or that the two aren't by definition intertwined are disingenuous shitlords it's almost as if they're using the latter to completely avoid having to talk about the former while not doing poo poo about either
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Jul 19, 2018 13:36
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PT6A posted:You do understand that's not an argument for ignoring racial justice, right? They're equally important and your ilk tends to ignore the economic part. E: you give away your bullshit when you go on a Clara Jeffery style rant about Bernie being mean to rich people.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:37
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PT6A posted:You do understand that's not an argument for ignoring racial justice, right? it's the opposite of ignoring it.
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Jul 19, 2018 13:39
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Matt Zerella posted:We don't even need to talk about people being shot and had remained in office instead. This is one of the most ignored and easily overlooked events in modern American history. If there was a president Wallace we may have even avoided the Cold War entirely. I know that JFK and RFK aren’t perfect. Perhaps their deaths downplayed their bad sides. But I really think had RFK survived to become president we’d have gotten a very different America. RFK went from being a McArthyist to a modern day liberal icon. People can change and I strongly believe events like the death of his brother changed him enough that he would have enacted the sort of change we needed. I would say that RFK was a lot like the Bernie Sanders of his time only he was able to win over the black voters. The dude personally showed up in front of an entire crowd of predominantly black civil rights protesters and announced MLK Jrs death to them before they even knew. Then he delivered an impromptu eulogy to him without a prepared speech to calm them down. That’s the most genuine democrat we’ve had since FDR. The only other person I know of who can make effective off the cuff speeches to his base right now is Donald Trump. All the dems are focus grouped TelePrompTer bots. You’d be hard pressed to find a democratic presidential contender today who personally shows up in front of starving poor people and the unwashed masses to express his support for them. Sometimes I wonder if the Kennedy assassinations are the reason we never have truly liberal presidents anymore. Maybe there’s enough powerful people who can physically end you if they can’t contain you via the Democratic Party machine. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 14:43
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Mantis42 posted:People don't lionize Hubert Humphrey, just the dead union busting, mob connected Catholic who enjoyed spitroasting teenage interns with his brother. I cheered when Humphrey was chosen.
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Jul 19, 2018 17:33
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Kraftwerk posted:Sometimes I wonder if the Kennedy assassinations are the reason we never have truly liberal presidents anymore. got a hunch it has a little more to do with the guy who immediately followed jfk
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Jul 19, 2018 17:48
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The only reason anyone remembers Kennedy fondly is because he was handsome and managed to get himself shot in the head before he could be properly blamed for the Vietnam War. The entire Kennedy family is a gigantic pack of shitbags and the fewer of them that are in politics the better.
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Jul 19, 2018 18:07
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PT6A posted:That's not entirely wrong, although I doubt I'd agree with whoever created it. I've always seen Bernie as a rather uninspired, one-note speaker, not because of his platform, but because of his bizarre habit of connecting literally anything he's asked about back to the three goddamn things he won't shut up about. It doesn't matter if you talk to him about gun violence, racism, Russian meddling in our election, whatever -- it always seems to connect back to the banks loving people over, and the plight of the white working man who showers after work instead of in the morning (?), like the world's most boring game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I don't know, Cortez can be pretty drat eloquent off the cuff. Yea she's not at Obama's level, but then Obama trained for decades to hone his speech craft.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:34
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theblackw0lf posted:I don't know, Cortez can be pretty drat eloquent off the cuff. Actual passion about actual people can substitute just fine for professionally trained eloquence. That's basically Bernie's whole gimmick and it's also AOC's to an extent.
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Jul 19, 2018 19:40
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theblackw0lf posted:I don't know, Cortez can be pretty drat eloquent off the cuff. Yeah, I think so too, sorry if it sounded like I was slagging A O-C. I'm not sure if she's that person, but she certainly could be. Bernie isn't. He's an average speaker who connects to a specific segment of the population because he's talking about issues that are too often ignored in US politics. Outside those issues, he's weak and he knows it, which is why he always steers literally everything back towards the issues he's comfortable talking about. I think A O-C and future candidates like her have the possibility of remaining focused on the same issues as Bernie is, but without focusing on them exclusively, which is one of the reasons I think Ocasio-Cortez is such an exciting candidate.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:05
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I saw AOC fumble badly when asked about the occupation of Palestine, she sounded pretty dumb. With all this big exposure she's going to need to bone up on international affairs at least a little.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:05
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Count Roland posted:I saw AOC fumble badly when asked about the occupation of Palestine, she sounded pretty dumb. With all this big exposure she's going to need to bone up on international affairs at least a little. Source? It sounds like she was correct off the start, and then sort of tried to moderate herself without any conviction in doing so when she noticed that Americans have an irrational freakout about literally anyone who doesn't fully indulge the Israeli apartheid state. I feel sorry for her; I think she knows the right answer, but feels she can't come out and say it due to the absurdly pro-Israel climate in the US as a whole.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:09
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yeah the fumbling was her apology.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:24
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Speaking of Ocasio-Cortez, here's an interview with her in Jacobin magazine. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-interview-democratic-primary
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Jul 19, 2018 20:37
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PT6A posted:Source? It sounds like she was correct off the start, and then sort of tried to moderate herself without any conviction in doing so when she noticed that Americans have an irrational freakout about literally anyone who doesn't fully indulge the Israeli apartheid state. I feel sorry for her; I think she knows the right answer, but feels she can't come out and say it due to the absurdly pro-Israel climate in the US as a whole. https://www.mediaite.com/online/alexandra-ocasio-cortez-gives-brutally-awkward-explanation-after-claiming-palestine-is-occupied/ Yeah you could see alarm bells going off when questioned about the term "occupation". The above is a longer clip than I'd seen before in which she comes across better.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:21
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I'm pretty sure any awkwardness comes from trying to describe an occupation without using the word "occupation" since, of course, Israel has done a bang-up job of convincing most of North America that any criticism of Israeli government policy is, in fact, the very worst sort of anti-Semitism.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:38
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theblackw0lf posted:Speaking of Ocasio-Cortez, here's an interview with her in Jacobin magazine.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:38
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PT6A posted:That's not entirely wrong, although I doubt I'd agree with whoever created it. I've always seen Bernie as a rather uninspired, one-note speaker, not because of his platform, but because of his bizarre habit of connecting literally anything he's asked about back to the three goddamn things he won't shut up about. It doesn't matter if you talk to him about gun violence, racism, Russian meddling in our election, whatever -- it always seems to connect back to the banks loving people over, and the plight of the white working man who showers after work instead of in the morning (?), like the world's most boring game of six degrees of Kevin Bacon. I was a Bernie person in 2016 and I identify with his campaign platforms a lot. However as time has gone has gone on I've become more and more jaded with Bernie the person and Justice Democrats as a whole. For a bit of context, I live in Kansas and I've been following the primary between James Thompson and Laura Lombard in the 4th congressional district out of Wichita very closely. Thompson was the one who ran against Estes in the 2017 special election for Pompeo's seat in 2017 and lost. James has the endorsement from Justice Democrats, but he got their nod before Lombard was even in the race this year. Pretty much all throughout the primary season Lombard has been consistently to the left of Thompson on everything from guns (Thompson is a pro-2nd amendment guy, Lombard is significantly better on gun control), women's rights (Lombard supports going to the Colorado method of reducing abortions through comprehensive sex ed and subsidised birth control, Thompson is quiet on the issue and is backing a pro-life governor's candidate), minimum wage (Lombard is for $15 minimum wage that is pegged to inflation, Thompson is literally on video saying he doesn't care about how much money McDonald's employees make because it's entry level jobs for teenagers) and so on. Thompson is also fully despicable person, he's paying himself lawyer consultation fees out of his campaign funds. His FEC filings show it going to a law office he's a part of, but neither of his partners are in practice anymore. The consultant firm he's working with, Ad Astra is basically single handedly responsible for decimating the state democratic party in the wake of the 2017 special election because the owner of Ad Astra was also a member of the KDP executive committee and was using her position to enrich herself out of state party funds, of which the drama is still playing out in real time. Despite all of this, because Thompson is the Justice Democrat (because he's paying Justice for the privilege of being a Justice Democrat), they are paying for Bernie to come campaign for him against Lombard because "he's the progressive" despite being a nakedly corrupt mealy mouthed red state moderate. To top it off, he's doing the same thing against Sharice Davids in Kansas City, who is actually favored to win the seat against Kevin Yoder should she make it through the primaries. The whole thing has left an exceedingly bitter taste in my mouth and there are a lot of Kansas lefties that are getting really pissed off about it. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 22:07
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It's worth mentioning that, from what I understand, Justice Democrats aren't really directly affiliated with Bernie (that would be Our Revolution I think). I think Justice Democrats are something related to The Young Turks? My experience regarding Justice Democrats is that they're just very ideologically unreliable. The same is kind of true for Our Revolution to a lesser extent; DSA is the only leftist political organization that seems to have its poo poo more or less together ideologically. Regarding Sanders specifically, his individual politics are still the best of any national-level politician with any presence to speak of, but I strongly support attacking him from the left when he does specific dumb things (like not explicitly supporting the Abolish ICE stuff, or IIRC voicing opposition to Sarah Sanders being made to leave the restaurant). I think it's usually easy to tell if someone is criticizing him for the right reasons, usually by looking at how they discuss other figures on the American left/center-left. edit: The reason why I'm often skeptical of people who attack Sanders on issues of race is that they usually don't reference anything specific, and it's usually explicit or implied that he's notably bad in some way that goes beyond the norm for Democrats (despite supporting policy that would unequivocally be better for minority groups). Like, if you really care about that issue, it doesn't make any sense to make Sanders a disproportionate target of your attacks, while ignoring (at least until others bring it up) Democrats who take money from for-profit prisons and poo poo. Attacking him for specific things that happen (like the "conflating drug dealers with black people" thing from some time back) is 100% reasonable and good, but these attacks usually just consist of a bunch of vague insinuations implying that the mainstream Dems are better on racial justice than the radical left. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 22:21
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Ytlaya posted:It's worth mentioning that, from what I understand, Justice Democrats aren't really directly affiliated with Bernie (that would be Our Revolution I think). I think Justice Democrats are something related to The Young Turks?. Its both. It's the young turks guy and also guys who were top staffers in the Bernie 2016 campaign. Bernie is coming to Kansas on behalf of Justice Dems. Edit: At least at the Kansas state level, Justice Dems and Our Revolution are very incestuous, a lot of overlapping circles of people in both groups. Quite a few of which are also associated with Ad Astra, the group I mentioned in the article above that was decimating the state level Democratic party for personal profit. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 22:32
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PT6A posted:Bernie isn't. He's an average speaker who connects to a specific segment of the population because he's talking about issues that are too often ignored in US politics. Outside those issues, he's weak and he knows it, which is why he always steers literally everything back towards the issues he's comfortable talking about. There's definitely some truth here. The only time Bernie really sounded out of his depth during 2016 was discussing foreign policy. I found a lot of Hillary's answers terrible, but at least they were answers. 'lean on the Saudis to stop being lovely' is not an acceptable or complete answer to a question about the war in Yemen.
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Jul 20, 2018 01:21
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:There's definitely some truth here. The only time Bernie really sounded out of his depth during 2016 was discussing foreign policy. I found a lot of Hillary's answers terrible, but at least they were answers. 'lean on the Saudis to stop being lovely' is not an acceptable or complete answer to a question about the war in Yemen. Yeah, I mean, I think Bernie did a very important thing, because wealth inequality and economic issues are a huge, huge deal in the US right now, and no one was really talking about them the way they needed to be talked about. But there are other issues that are mostly separate, and a good candidate has to be able to speak credibly on all of them. Bernie has a very specific focus, and that has value, but it means he's a better adviser than he is a candidate. The same way that conservative thinktanks poo poo out weird anti-abortion Christian nonsense peddlers, so too does the left need to have a way to help prospective candidates shore up their knowledge on their weak areas -- be it racial justice, economic policy, foreign policy, or whatever else. Ideally, the left should field candidates with no obvious policy blindspots -- easier said than done, of course. I get that I have different priorities than some people in this thread, but I don't think the things I want are incompatible with the things most of the people in this thread want, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be a candidate that can appeal fully to all of us.
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Jul 20, 2018 02:00
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Ytlaya posted:It's worth mentioning that, from what I understand, Justice Democrats aren't really directly affiliated with Bernie (that would be Our Revolution I think). I think Justice Democrats are something related to The Young Turks? The Young Turks supports Justice Democrats running for office but is no longer affiliated with Justice Democrats. This is due to some conservative finding a copy of Cenk Ugur's old blog posts from the late 90s when he was a single conservative libertarian in his 20s on archive.org (as the originals no longer exist for obvious reasons) and on there he posted some lovely stuff about women. This got into the news and as a result the Justice Democrats kicked him out. What's interesting is this was very publicly known even before these blog posts were found out. He's openly talked about his days as a young conservative going to law school and how he was an rear end in a top hat back then on TYT. Anyways, apparently things you say 20 years ago when you were on the complete opposite of the political spectrum means you're no good for the Justice Democrats, regardless if you're one of the co-founders and have overwhelmingly shown that you're a progressive. The other co-founder Kyle Kulinski left Justice Democrats after they kicked Cenk out. Yeah I'm not much of a fan either Scrotum Modem fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 02:12
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Ague Proof posted:I cheered when Humphrey was chosen. Did it restore your faith in the system?
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Jul 20, 2018 03:58
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RaspberryCommie posted:Did it restore your faith in the system? love, love, etc
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Jul 20, 2018 05:27
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Mantis42 posted:People don't lionize Hubert Humphrey, just the dead union busting, mob connected Catholic who enjoyed spitroasting teenage interns with his brother. 50,000 Americans (and millions of Vietnamese) died in that war dude, no poo poo the guy who loved sending teenagers to get slaughtered isn't well-loved by history
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Jul 20, 2018 06:04
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PT6A posted:Yeah, I mean, I think Bernie did a very important thing, because wealth inequality and economic issues are a huge, huge deal in the US right now, and no one was really talking about them the way they needed to be talked about. But there are other issues that are mostly separate, and a good candidate has to be able to speak credibly on all of them. Bernie has a very specific focus, and that has value, but it means he's a better adviser than he is a candidate. until other candidates start taking those economic issues seriously, bernie is the best candidate we've got.
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Jul 20, 2018 09:23
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PT6A posted:Yeah, I mean, I think Bernie did a very important thing, because wealth inequality and economic issues are a huge, huge deal in the US right now, and no one was really talking about them the way they needed to be talked about. But there are other issues that are mostly separate, and a good candidate has to be able to speak credibly on all of them. Bernie has a very specific focus, and that has value, but it means he's a better adviser than he is a candidate. The existing liberal thinktanks do the exact opposite of this. The Democrat establish is built to suppress leftism and leftist candidates.
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Jul 20, 2018 11:06
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Corsair Pool Boy posted:There's definitely some truth here. The only time Bernie really sounded out of his depth during 2016 was discussing foreign policy. I found a lot of Hillary's answers terrible, but at least they were answers. 'lean on the Saudis to stop being lovely' is not an acceptable or complete answer to a question about the war in Yemen. every candidate sounds out of their depth on foreign policy because they're all wrong. bernie was less wrong at least.
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Jul 20, 2018 11:08
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Groovelord Neato posted:every candidate sounds out of their depth on foreign policy because they're all wrong. bernie was less wrong at least. Yeah, Hillary's foreign policy of throwing a dart to decide which Arab country to destroy every 6-10 years is honestly worse than not having a comprehensive foreign policy.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:24
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kidkissinger posted:Yeah, Hillary's foreign policy of throwing a dart to decide which Arab country to destroy every 6-10 years is honestly worse than not having a comprehensive foreign policy. Yeah having a comprehensive policy, doesn't mean it is non-catastrophic.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:28
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it is wild to think our choices were the dumbest person alive or a person who christmases with our worst war criminal.
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Jul 20, 2018 13:29
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https://twitter.com/USCPSC/status/1020318077026791425?s=19
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Jul 20, 2018 15:52
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Is that account real or parody Am I real or parody I can't tell any more
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Jul 20, 2018 16:01
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https://twitter.com/USCPSC/status/1020303215781457921
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Jul 20, 2018 16:20
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https://twitter.com/LCP/status/1020314710556663809 turns out centrists don't like fascists more than the left, they are fascists. this member of the "centrist" la republique en marche is saying "you don't love france! you don't love the republic! in response to the opposition parties raking them over the coals since it was discovered one of macron's staff was caught impersonating the police and brutalizing protestors https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/1020325286859214848
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Jul 20, 2018 16:30
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