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clusterfuck posted:The interpretation I'm using is more in keeping with common sense understanding of what may interrupt a rest. The choice of words allows for that interpretation. The alternative is they've chosen a narrow, contiguous only, use of the word - and why would they do that? The rule doesn't bother me at all, it's never even come up in a 5E game I've been in, and I'll make a call if it ever does. I also don't give a poo poo about proving SotDL is better than 5E. My motivation is just that you are arguing for interpreting a rule by using a word incorrectly. I'm arguing about the basis of your interpretation, because I think it's faulty reasoning, and I'm a lawyer that likes pedantic arguments about interpretation. For what it's worth, I can understand the practical reason for applying the rule the way you are advocating for, and probably would apply it that way—I just don't think it's what the rules actually say. It is possible that the 5E writers intended to use "period" to mean multiple non-contiguous lengths of time, but if they did it's because they are lovely writers, and they chose the wrong word, and I don't think the interpretation of the rules should hinge on assuming the writers hosed up in that way. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 10:28
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short rest = nap long rest = sleepo beepo 
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Jul 22, 2018 10:39
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I think if you set up camp, sleep for a few hours then goblins/bandits/whatever attack and you drive them off, you should be able to go back to sleep until morning and have it still count as a long rest, which I'm pretty sure is the intent of that rule.
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Jul 22, 2018 10:47
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Bogan Krkic posted:I think if you set up camp, sleep for a few hours then goblins/bandits/whatever attack and you drive them off, you should be able to go back to sleep until morning and have it still count as a long rest, which I'm pretty sure is the intent of that rule. Well, apparently Crawford agrees with you, and not me. Edit: Mearls too. thefakenews fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 11:02
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e: nah, gently caress it.
Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 11:18 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 11:12
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Bogan Krkic posted:I think if you set up camp, sleep for a few hours then goblins/bandits/whatever attack and you drive them off, you should be able to go back to sleep until morning and have it still count as a long rest, which I'm pretty sure is the intent of that rule. If it's (one hour of walking), (fighting), or (casting spells) then any fight or spell ends a rest, which is directly contradicted by Crawford's and Mearls's tweets. If it's (one hour of) (walking), (one hour of)(fighting), or (one hour of)(casting spells) then the last two are pointless except in the case of mass warfare or extended casting. If it's (one hour of) (walking, fighting, or casting spells) then it's AlphaDog's interpretation. Incidentally, Mearls's tweet backs up the Strict English Reading usage of "Period" and Crawford's tweet can go either way depending on your interpretation of "an" ("A long rest can withstand [one] interruption, [which may be no more than] 1 hour." vs "A long rest can withstand [any] interruption of up to 1 hour".) I'm pretty sure the intent is "Up to an hour's worth of interruptions". Meanwhile the only ambiguity in the SotDL rules is your table's understanding of "strenuous". Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 12:02
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Splicer posted:I'm pretty sure the intent is "Up to an hour's worth of interruptions". That's exactly what I get out of it, and while the wording is slightly ambiguous I don't really see how that ambiguity is an issue unless you've got a table full of twats who want to rules-lawyer their in game nap time
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Jul 22, 2018 12:12
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Bogan Krkic posted:That's exactly what I get out of it, and while the wording is slightly ambiguous I don't really see how that ambiguity is an issue unless you've got a table full of twats who want to rules-lawyer their in game nap time 1) One interruption, no more than an hour 2) Multiple interruptions exceeding no more than one hour in total 3) Multiple interruptions of less than an hour each, but obviously you have to spend at least half the time or so actually resting. 1 and 2 especially are I would consider equally obvious depending on the reader. If the characters had two fights during one rest period I could see everyone involved assuming the "obvious" and then next session getting real confused as to why half the party is out of spells and hit dice. And it wouldn't be hard to make it clear which of the above is the correct interpretation in the first place, but :5e:
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Jul 22, 2018 12:22
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Holy poo poo guys
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Jul 22, 2018 12:53
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Novum posted:Holy poo poo guys gently caress you ignorant rear end holes you're all dumb as poo poo and know nothing about my sleeping habits, i'm also in my mid 200s so you're just literal children. you're all low level and make the worst attempts at parsing grammar which is evident in the typical fat ration munching martial passive aggression in the last few posts. i would have owned all you biches in mage college and own you today in faction rank, gold and happiness per capita
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Jul 22, 2018 12:57
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Maybe the rules are intentionally ambiguous so you can make a decision on what interpretation best suits your party and campaign? So long as that's communicated within the party, there's no issue.
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Jul 22, 2018 12:58
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Why are we still posting about this when someone dug up not one but two game designer clarifications that spell it out? Let's move on. My group running curse of strahd is breaking up mostly because we can't get time to get together physically anymore and after evaluating the different online options, roll20 was the best butttt.... In order to play though, the dm would have to buy the ultimate super pack plus the module in digital form plus all the books and, well, that's several hundred on top of all the money he's already spent on the physical copies. It really sucks that there's no discount and our group is dissolving because of it. You can't even  because its all hosted and individual personal accounts. The best you can do is individually import all the maps but you still need to re-buy all the core books in order to get access to play. I get everyone needs money and yeah  but we already bought all the damned physical books!
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Jul 22, 2018 13:06
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One more question on my upcoming session: My players all really like Stranger Things, and a few of them have been explicit about wanting to enter the Upside-Down in D&D. One of the PCs has done a lot of planeswalking, and I plan on giving them an item that will allow them to enter the Shadow Plane, but what are some things I can do to capture that horror-y "we're out of out depth" feel that Stranger Things had? I know I can send a Nightwalker after them, but I'm not sure how to integrate mechanics so it feels like they're succeeding at running away.
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Jul 22, 2018 13:21
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Bogan Krkic posted:Maybe the rules are intentionally ambiguous so you can make a decision on what interpretation best suits your party and campaign? So long as that's communicated within the party, there's no issue. Whenever I see something like this, I think about writing a game where the rules really are intentionally ambiguous so that everyone can interpret them in the way that they like the best, set up so that every player at the table gets to do it instead of just that guy. I seriously doubt anyone would ever want to play something like that, but it could be a fun thing to do. inthesto posted:One more question on my upcoming session: My players all really like Stranger Things, and a few of them have been explicit about wanting to enter the Upside-Down in D&D. One of the PCs has done a lot of planeswalking, and I plan on giving them an item that will allow them to enter the Shadow Plane, but what are some things I can do to capture that horror-y "we're out of out depth" feel that Stranger Things had? Mechanically, I have no idea. D&D has never seemed to lend itself well to horror, to me. There's a few easy things you can do to make a creepy vibe though. Put a red filter over the lights, or even just dim them or use candles. Play ambient/creepy music just loud enough to hear, or alternatively just loud enough that everyone has to raise their voices. Pull slightly unsettling tricks like an NPC with a cheesy accent that says some kind of stereotypical lines but sometimes whispers "help me" in a cracked voice between them. Hell, you can just whisper "help me" while you're describing stuff. Like "The trees lean in toward the road, making an oppressive green tunnel which help me seems to close in as you walk". Don't put the "help me" in there if anyone asks you to repeat what you said. Don't acknowledge that you said it at all. Do a jump scare by gradually speaking softer and softer and softer towards your reveal so people lean in towards you, then BANG your hand on the table and SHOUT the first line of the description or dialogue. Specifically for this: if you use a battle mat or something, tape a black (or darker) one to the bottom and dramatically flip it over when they make the jump. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 13:26
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Cool I guess you can start your long rest during your last fight of the day as long as it's at most a 55 minute walk away from where you're gonna sleep. That's ridiculous, sotdl forever.
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Jul 22, 2018 13:38
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Its just a game my friend. Just relax, drink some booze and have badass dwarf adventures with your pals.
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Jul 22, 2018 13:40
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Cool I guess you can start your long rest during your last fight of the day as long as it's at most a 55 minute walk away from where you're gonna sleep. That's ridiculous, sotdl forever. Yeah, so long as you get your 7 hours rest after that I don't see what the problem is? You don't get any benefits from a long rest until it's complete anyway, so mechanically it works exactly the same AlphaDog posted:Whenever I see something like this, I think about writing a game where the rules really are intentionally ambiguous so that everyone can interpret them in the way that they like the best, set up so that every player at the table gets to do it instead of just that guy. I would 100% play this, where everyone gets whatever benefits or powers they can reasonably justify through the rules
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Jul 22, 2018 13:43
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Bogan Krkic posted:Maybe the rules are intentionally ambiguous so you can make a decision on what interpretation best suits your party and campaign? So long as that's communicated within the party, there's no issue. Splicer posted:The thing is, I can totally see any of the below as "common sense" readings: Splicer fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 13:47
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inthesto posted:One more question on my upcoming session: My players all really like Stranger Things, and a few of them have been explicit about wanting to enter the Upside-Down in D&D. One of the PCs has done a lot of planeswalking, and I plan on giving them an item that will allow them to enter the Shadow Plane, but what are some things I can do to capture that horror-y "we're out of out depth" feel that Stranger Things had? 
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Jul 22, 2018 13:48
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This is not a hard problem to solve with a very simple conversation around the table though? Like, when you realise there's been 2 different interpretations then you talk to each other, agree on how you want to interpret it as a group, and then everyone can update their character sheets accordingly
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Jul 22, 2018 14:01
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Bogan Krkic posted:I would 100% play this, where everyone gets whatever benefits or powers they can reasonably justify through the rules Whether or not they'll admit it, that's how most people play TTRPGs. I'm talking about a game with an extra set of immutable rules for loving with the regular rules while the game is played. Like, you don't get to just interpret stuff willy-nilly, it's at the end of your turn, it has to be a rule you used this turn, and nobody else can gently caress with it until the start of your next turn, and it has to be recognisably an interpretation when you've finished and not a whole new rule. Special moves like "Interrupt: You may re-arrange the punctuation in a rule that's currently being used". Bogan Krkic posted:This is not a hard problem to solve with a very simple conversation around the table though? Like, when you realise there's been 2 different interpretations then you talk to each other, agree on how you want to interpret it as a group, and then everyone can update their character sheets accordingly Yeah, but in the chillest, friendliest, best-intentioned group that never has any hard feelings whatsoever, that still takes time, and it can still be stupidly complicated. An hour into a four hour session: "poo poo, I'm dead" "How could that even happen?" "I thought we'd get a rest, but when DM Dave said "it actually works like X" I went along with it because I'm the canonical Good Player and he's the canonical Good DM and that's how it works". "poo poo. Uh..." ...and now, without anyone arguing, losing their poo poo, being pedantic, or claiming that if time is a flat circle then elephants aren't tulips, something has to be done about this, because A Good DM wouldn't try to keep running an adventure as-written with one PC fewer than expected, right? So... is Fred going to go home early? Are we gonna roll back the previous 45 minutes? Is Fred getting a free extra rest? Is everyone getting a free extra rest? So you lose 20 minutes or an hour or whatever, not a super big deal I guess, but that's the problem - not the image people have of a game dissolving into 5 red-faced screaming nerds arguing about rules, but that a little ambiguity cost us 20 minutes this week, 45 minutes after the game a month ago, an hour-long combat rolled back, whatever else. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 14:10
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I'm sorry, but I don't think it's valid to suggest that the ambiguity of these rules was deliberate. That's completely ridiculous. The linked Sage Advice even says that they had a single intent for it! The rules were written unclearly.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:14
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AlphaDog posted:Whether or not they'll admit it, that's how most people play TTRPGs. It reminds me of a few homebrewed items I've seen where you get to change a letter in a spell or something and use 'Guiding Night' instead of 'Guiding Light' or whatever AlphaDog posted:Yeah, but in the chillest, friendliest, best-intentioned group that never has any hard feelings whatsoever, that still takes time, and it can still be stupidly complicated. That's entirely fair, and you're right that it very much could devolve into a shitfest with a bad group, and either way it does make the game harder to run even for a good group. At least it's moot now that the authors have cleared up the intended reading of the rule, and it really is just clumsy wording in the rule book Bogan Krkic fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 14:14
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Bogan Krkic posted:It reminds me of a few homebrewed items I've seen where you get to change a letter in a spell or something and use 'Guiding Night' instead of 'Guiding Light' or whatever Somewhere between "D&D with an item that lets you change one letter in your spell", and Nomic, yeah.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:23
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Bogan Krkic posted:This is not a hard problem to solve with a very simple conversation around the table though? Like, when you realise there's been 2 different interpretations then you talk to each other, agree on how you want to interpret it as a group, and then everyone can update their character sheets accordingly If the description is unambiguous everyone can assume that, barring some serious reading comprehension issues, everyone is on the same page. If you don't like the RAW you can then have explicit houserules or table-agreed exceptions which you're allowed do in well written systems just as much as you are in ambiguous ones. Not only that, but a well-written system will mean it's easier to tell what knock-on effects your houserules will have on play. AlphaDog posted:...and now, without anyone arguing, losing their poo poo, being pedantic, or claiming that if time is a flat circle then elephants aren't tulips, something has to be done about this, because A Good DM wouldn't try to keep running an adventure as-written with one PC fewer than expected, right? So... is Fred going to go home early? Are we gonna roll back the previous 45 minutes? Is Fred getting a free extra rest? Is everyone getting a free extra rest? Splicer fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 14:25
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Hey guys there's 100 new posts what is go- Oh... Anyway, the intent of both the 5e and SotDL rest interruption rules is that you can wake up from your rest, do some fighting, then go back to sleep and still get the full benefit of your rest. In 5e's case, as it happens often, the rule is very poorly written. In SotDL's case, the rule is strictly written to the point it comes off as impractical at a glance depending on whether you consider spending a few minutes investigating the surroundings or re-establishing camp to be a strenuous task that interrupts rest, but 1 minute by itself is enough to resolve a short combat.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:32
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Yeah the 5e rules only make sense if they intended no fighting... Kinda thinking mearls and crawford didn't write that paragraph and misread the intent when asked directly, in the same way we talked about. Has any table that allows fighting during rests ever had a rest interrupted? I'd welcome an anecdote here. I think it's pretty much impossible under the ruling made by crawford. Maybe it's the author's intent that you can do your entire adventuring day's 6-8 encounters in the middle of your long rest but...I think not. I don't see what's impractical about starting your rest over if you get attacked. That means you messed up, period, and it's fine for there to be consequences. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 14:39
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In my 5e campaign, my DM strives to stay pretty RAW and I believe he went the "you can be attacked while camping and then continue the rest" route. I think he realized that doing so was pointless unless the interrupting combat was really hard and could kill us, so it's been very rare.
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Jul 22, 2018 14:47
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I don't see what's impractical about starting your rest over if you get attacked. That means you messed up, period, and it's fine for there to be consequences. What if your party has rested for 7 and a half hours at their campsite, and now the sun is rising when all of a sudden the night watch see movement and they're attacked! You rouse the party, fight the attackers off and end it in one round of combat, but now you have to write off that day as being for getting another uninterrupted 8 hours of rest rather than adventuring. It'd take a dick GM to make that play while also saying that any interruption to your 8 hour long rest means you have to start again obviously, but stranger things have happened
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Jul 22, 2018 14:52
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Yeah the 5e rules only make sense if they intended no fighting... Kinda thinking mearls and crawford didn't write that paragraph and misread the intent when asked directly, in the same way we talked about. Has any table that allows fighting during rests ever had a rest interrupted? I'd welcome an anecdote here. I think it's pretty much impossible under the ruling made by crawford. Maybe it's the author's intent that you can do your entire adventuring day's 6-8 encounters in the middle of your long rest but...I think not. While we're talking about interrupted sleep, this is a neat thing people might like to know: https://theconversation.com/did-we-used-to-have-two-sleeps-rather-than-one-should-we-again-57806
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Jul 22, 2018 14:53
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real talk: even if the DM were to always allow parties to complete their rests no matter how many interruptions they get (or don't get), it doesn't actually matter because there's still the limit of "only one Long Rest counts every 24 hours" EDIT also: a party can conceivably get away with one, even two combats under the SOTDL rules, because 1 minute still means you have 10 whole combat rounds to play with gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 15:17
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This argument is a legit mind blower to me. It would change how my players could rest in ToA. I don’t think we’ve had 600 rounds of combat in the entire campaign. If it’s all the same to everyone, I’m going to pretend I never stumbled upon this revelation and go back to my long standing assumption that if your rest is interrupted for any length of time you have restart it.
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Jul 22, 2018 15:22
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Bogan Krkic posted:What if your party has rested for 7 and a half hours at their campsite, and now the sun is rising when all of a sudden the night watch see movement and they're attacked! You rouse the party, fight the attackers off and end it in one round of combat, but now you have to write off that day as being for getting another uninterrupted 8 hours of rest rather than adventuring. Splicer, that is pretty fair but I have a hard time imagining a situation where even moving camp would take a full hour. Maybe if you were in a deep valley and it flooded or the volcano above it erupted or something. I think it'd have to be pretty contrived, to the point where the core resting rules probably don't need to mention it. Edit: sorry I'm phone posting poorly Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 16:04
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Trying to figure out if you've passed the milestone to be interrupted is weird. From the perspective of the DM either the interruption is meant to stop your rest, or else it's meant to prevent you from using your "rest" as a prep period to get even more swole for your next encounter, as a kind of anti-exploitation clause. "We were so close to 8 hours" is meaningless from the perspective of the DM who ultimately has the power to decide you know, maybe these guys don't attack until just after your rest is finished.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:21
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a lot of dumb arguments like this can be solved by the 'cmon' rule. if the rule disagreement can be solved by someone looking at it and saying, cmon, then its stupid.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:46
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Rest for seven hours and one minute, then go adventuring so you can get your long rest in the middle of a fight 59 minutes later.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:49
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Give it a rest, guys.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:21
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Kaysette posted:It’s Magic: The Gathering: The Setting https://www.amazon.com/dp/078696659...v_1532276875816
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Jul 22, 2018 17:31
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I'd say you'd basically have to have a dick GM to not use the rest rule pretty clearly intended to just be like "yeah you can get a long rest broken up by something as long as an hour, one surprise fight isn't going to ruin it." But then our GM has slowly started to become more and more of a "gotcha!" and "shutdown" GM. It started out getting resurrected was basically impossible, I don't think any of our players like it but whatever I guess he's the GM. Then it became Slaads take 1d6 turns to burst out your chest, along with sticking to his misread that slowly turning into a Slaad requires a Wish spell to undo (it doesn't, only once you are transformed). Lately every single magic user has their focus on a chain so Disarming Attack is useless. Oh and Mordencanin's private sanctum as a permanent fixture is used in multiple places to force us to face-check multiple poo poo. Making our Wizard useless. We're in SKT and there's a part where a giant ship comes out of nowhere and fires ballista bolts at you once per turn. He made it 4. Then also made the Jarl legendary with 3 moves per round. We wiped on that encounter and he just said "all I did was make the Jarl legendary!" Ok man. We're almost done but honestly I dunno if I want to play it anymore. I like my character but the campaign has just gotten shittier. He's talking about still going past the campaign and I guess he just can't read that everyone is getting less and less happy. To the point where only 2 of our six people actively said they wanted to continue going (with me being 1) with two others literally flipping a coin to continue or stop. We continued. gently caress me, the more I read this the less I want to keep going. It sucks because we've been playing this for a loving year. And he's not all bad, he let our human fighter use the Dwarven thrower and lets us throw runes on already magical poo poo (which RAW you can't). But more and more it feels like he'll do poo poo like have a wolf run at you but calculate out if it can reach you on its turn and if not the wolf will only regular move then Dodge. Edit: oh yeah and just before the mortaring ballistas and Legendary Jarl we found some orcs will invade a city but we got burned with a mark by some powerful orc sorcerer that causes like 20 damage if we think about talking with anyone about anything related to the orcs. We went to multiple healers and they all said they can't do anything about it. So we can do literally nothing about it. doctor 7 fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jul 22, 2018 |
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Jul 22, 2018 17:36
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gradenko_2000 posted:I'm sorry, but I don't think it's valid to suggest that the ambiguity of these rules was deliberate.
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Jul 22, 2018 17:36
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