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zapplez posted:If France and the UK are the baddies now too, I'd love to know what country you think is free of sin. The Free Territory of Ukraine.
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Jul 23, 2018 00:47
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rip
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Jul 23, 2018 00:47
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San Marino still sounds pretty good.
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Jul 23, 2018 00:51
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zapplez posted:I just dont know if the victim blaming thing of saying the western countries that have had major terrorist attacks have themselves to blame. I cant wrap my mind around that. Well, there's a lot to unpack here, but just to be clear, western countries are the oppressors, not the victims. It sounds like you need to read up on the general history of imperialism moreso than the Israel/Palestine conflict in particular.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:03
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Ultramega posted:You do realize that about 85% of the world was either a colony or a client state of those two countries at one point in the world's history? For gently caress's sake the UK created the idea of concentration camps during the Boer Wars. That brings up my second point; imperialism has absolutely nothing to do with skin color. The Irish were one of the first people who were subjected to british imperialism and they tend to get kind of crispy when they stay outside too long. Are ISIS terrorist blowing up Ariana Grande concerts because of historical colonialism of the British empire? Should the teen girls that went to that concert and got blown up have taken a long look in the mirror first for the sins their ancestors might have done? Main Paineframe posted:Why not? You seem to think the non-Western countries that have face major terror attacks on a regular basis - such as Gaza - have only themselves to blame. I don't believe that at all. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 01:15
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isis only exists because we invaded iraq.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:16
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If Hamas rocket attacks are ineffective, as they apparently are, why continue the blockade and bombing of Gaza? The citizens have no say in these actions and punishing them just makes Hamas’ argument for them.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:29
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zapplez posted:Are ISIS terrorist blowing up Ariana Grande concerts because of historical colonialism of the British empire? Should the teen girls that went to that concert and got blown up have taken a long look in the mirror first for the sins their ancestors might have done? You could argue that, actually. The british empire overexploited their territories to a comedically evil degree which to this day has left indelible marks on the development of the civil societies they occupied. Let's assume you're asking this in good faith though, and not just blowing smoke up people's asses. Richard Dawkins is a piece of poo poo islamophobe but he put the religious conflict between protestants and catholics in ireland into a perfectly understandable context. The gist of his argument was "a protestant gunman doesn't kill a catholic guy and yell "take that you incense-reeking transubstantiationalist bastard!" More than likely he's doing it to exact revenge for one of his family members who was killed by a catholic gunman." Replace "protestant" and "catholic" with whichever feuding religions you want and that should give you a pretty good idea of what fuels a lot of terror attacks on civilians. You've got CTE if you seriously think muslims commit acts of violence because the loving quran tells them they should. quick edit: you don't seem like a complete dumbass but you really are out of your element here. Come back after reading some Said or Chomsky. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 01:29
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Boy, will Britain be pissed when we invade them for burning down DC in the War of 1812. The world will understand when France nukes Germany next week. When China wipes Japan off the map, let's all remem- actually this is a bad example.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:31
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The whole premise behind that post is bad. gently caress off.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:35
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The English may have helped start Israel's existence and the US has some weird fetish doing whatever Israel wants, but saying some teenagers getting blown up by an ISIS member had it coming because of something years ago sounds a lot like the Israeli excuses for blowing up UN shelters or Russians bombing hospitals. Unrelated but I've read a couple articles on the Israel's rescue of the White Helmets. Not many details. Did Israel actually help them evacuate or did they simply open the boarder and let them go to Jordan? \/ Hopefully I'm reading Ultra's post wrong. pro starcraft loser fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 01:43
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pro starcraft loser posted:but saying some teenagers getting blown up by an ISIS member had it coming because of something years ago sounds a lot like the Israeli excuses for blowing up UN shelters or Russians bombing hospitals. Pretty sure nobody said that. Is that fact, or your interpretation?
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Jul 23, 2018 01:45
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pro starcraft loser posted:The English may have helped start Israel's existence and the US has some weird fetish doing whatever Israel wants, but saying some teenagers getting blown up by an ISIS member had it coming because of something years ago sounds a lot like the Israeli excuses for blowing up UN shelters or Russians bombing hospitals. luckily someone already addressed this only a few posts above yours.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:53
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The individuals who are the victims of terrorism are blameless.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:55
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zapplez posted:Are ISIS terrorist blowing up Ariana Grande concerts because of historical colonialism of the British empire? Should the teen girls that went to that concert and got blown up have taken a long look in the mirror first for the sins their ancestors might have done? No, it happens because of the ongoing colonialism of the British empire. Syria is hosed for a number of reasons, but western interventionism (historical and current) is a big one. And since you don't seem to have read this post, I'll quote it for your convenience: Flowers For Algeria posted:The individuals who are the victims of terrorism are blameless. Read it twice, if need be.
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Jul 23, 2018 01:56
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Am I to understand that Birthright is suing a group of tourists for having the tenacity to speak to a Palestinian? Isn't the lawsuit just going to call more attention to this?
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Jul 23, 2018 02:01
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In other news: https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1021202136594567169
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Jul 23, 2018 02:22
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VideoGameVet posted:If Hamas rocket attacks are ineffective, as they apparently are, why continue the blockade and bombing of Gaza? I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or anyone that isn't strictly pro-hamas. But I dont think blockage and bombing of Gaza is morally right either.
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Jul 23, 2018 03:16
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edit:misread
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Jul 23, 2018 03:24
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zapplez posted:Are ISIS terrorist blowing up Ariana Grande concerts because of historical colonialism of the British empire? Should the teen girls that went to that concert and got blown up have taken a long look in the mirror first for the sins their ancestors might have done? the people in the British Foreign Office who brought the bombers in, on grounds they'd done good work for Britain in Libya, might have occasion to wonder "wait, why -are- we funding and arming a bunch of fundamentalists to kill in our name," imo seriously the only way you could get any more on the nose would be to superimpose the ending of Rambo 3 over the wreckage
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Jul 23, 2018 03:37
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much like in the case of Israeli diplomacy, it turns out "why can't you let bygones be bygones" is an unconvincing thing to say while actively stabbing the person you're talking to in the chest repeatedly
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Jul 23, 2018 03:39
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zapplez posted:I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or anyone that isn't strictly pro-hamas. But I dont think blockage and bombing of Gaza is morally right either. Double Post ... sorry VideoGameVet fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 06:13
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zapplez posted:I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or anyone that isn't strictly pro-hamas. But I dont think blockage and bombing of Gaza is morally right either. It was a general question. Stupid example ... I was one of the biggest kids in HS (early 1970's). Smaller kids would jump on my back for fun to see if I would get riled up. I knew that if I hit them I'd be the one in trouble because of my size advantage. So literally best to just pull them off and put them on the ground. And what I'm saying is, why bomb Gaza if your defenses are good enough to protect your citizens. And yeah, the blockage is wrong.
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Jul 23, 2018 06:17
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Ultramega posted:Replace "protestant" and "catholic" with whichever feuding religions you want and that should give you a pretty good idea of what fuels a lot of terror attacks on civilians. You've got CTE if you seriously think muslims commit acts of violence because the loving quran tells them they should. The grand mosque seizure is the elephant in the room here. I agree that violence begets violence and that western nations have often empowered jihadists in the name of "taking the gloves off" in the fight against them, but the jihadist movement at its core is far right extremism. It can and has been triggered into mobilization by some extremely petty poo poo throughout the last few decades. It isn't rational and there's no justifying it.
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Jul 23, 2018 08:14
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Honestly a lot of poo poo that makes extremists kill eachother is basically just high school Mean Girls clique poo poo. It's easy to attribute esoteric reasons behind it but honestly sometimes it's just the most base and understandable motivations. Giving Chechnen soldiers so much status and say-so in their organization really pissed off a lot of afghan and arab ISIS fighters for literally no other reason than the fact that they weren't arab or afghan. Also a lot of them were very ignorant of hadiths or had little working knowledge of the quran which didn't go over very well. The thing you have to keep in mind is that most people who commit politically motivated violence are not that intelligent. They tend to come from (multiple in some cases)broken homes, feel a sense of purposelessness in their everyday lives. And they see these assholes waving their black flags riding in the flatbeds of trucks looking like smiling conquerors and they tell themselves, "I was born in the wrong era, if only I was born in the time of the salaf I wouldn't be a loser" or some variation of that.
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Jul 23, 2018 08:23
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Religion would be hilarious if it weren’t so god damned tragic
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Jul 23, 2018 11:13
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VideoGameVet posted:It was a general question. That would be because Gaza exists as a concentration camp for Palestinians, whom Israel wants to ethnically cleanse. Stop thinking about self defense and start considering that what they are doing is genocide.
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Jul 23, 2018 12:27
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Southpaugh posted:That would be because Gaza exists as a concentration camp for Palestinians, whom Israel wants to ethnically cleanse. Stop thinking about self defense and start considering that what they are doing is genocide. Yep. Because if they weren't, the obvious thing would have been to lift the blockade and ignore ineffective rocket attacks.
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Jul 23, 2018 17:15
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Volkerball posted:The grand mosque seizure is the elephant in the room here. I agree that violence begets violence and that western nations have often empowered jihadists in the name of "taking the gloves off" in the fight against them, but the jihadist movement at its core is far right extremism. It can and has been triggered into mobilization by some extremely petty poo poo throughout the last few decades. It isn't rational and there's no justifying it. Of course there are people who will be motivated to commit violent acts largely because of their beliefs (religious or otherwise). But 1. those people are a small minority, and 2. even then, the conditions that spur those people on to violence still have to be taken into account. Human motivations are always complex, and even if someone is motivated purely by extreme religious beliefs, their acting on that belief cannot be views independently of the circumstances of their life. Generally speaking, people who are happy and satisfied with their lives do not suddenly start engaging in major political violence, even if they have extremist religious beliefs. More importantly, though, most people who are happy and satisfied with their lives do not develop extremist religious beliefs in the first place. It's much easier to be seduced by the idea of, say, rebuilding the caliphate when your country has been destroyed around you and you have no real hope for your life. People latch on to religious beliefs (and often political beliefs as well) in an effort to give their own lives meaning. Islamophobes love to talk about how extremist Muslims commit more major acts of political violence than extremist Christians (even if the Islamophobe in question is not actually Christian), and act like it's because of a qualitative difference between the religions, or sometimes that it's because of Christianity's relationship with "Western culture" and the Enlightenment. This is all bullshit, obviously: it's mainly because of the material differences in conditions between predominantly Muslim countries and predominantly Christian ones (it also helps that state violence is rarely factored into these kinds of calculations, of course). Of course, the comparison to far-right extremism is not wrong. But a lot of far-right extremism follows the same trends, especially when you look at which people flock to it in otherwise prosperous countries: mostly young men alienated from their society. The profile for a guy who runs off to join ISIS and a guy who becomes an incel Nazi are basically exactly the same (besides maybe skin colour). To bring things back to Israel/Palestine, it actually impresses me that Palestinians (especially Gazans) are as restrained and reasonable as they are, under the circumstances.
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Jul 23, 2018 18:08
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zapplez posted:I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or anyone that isn't strictly pro-hamas. But I dont think blockage and bombing of Gaza is morally right either. So you say, but many of your posts seem to have been making an effort to justify and defend it.
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Jul 23, 2018 18:09
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Main Paineframe posted:So you say, but many of your posts seem to have been making an effort to justify and defend it. Okay then. I'm trying to speak politely and honestly to the people in this thread from my background and experiences. I am not going to say only Israel is to blame for the problems here when Hamas is terrible as well. If thats the requirement to be accepted by this thread, I guess you dont want any discourse in here at all.
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Jul 23, 2018 19:00
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zapplez posted:Okay then. I'm trying to speak politely and honestly to the people in this thread from my background and experiences. I am not going to say only Israel is to blame for the problems here when Hamas is terrible as well. If thats the requirement to be accepted by this thread, I guess you dont want any discourse in here at all. Only Israel is to blame for the problems here despite Hamas being terrible. That's how these things work when one side holds literally all the cards.
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Jul 23, 2018 19:03
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zapplez posted:Okay then. I'm trying to speak politely and honestly to the people in this thread from my background and experiences. I am not going to say only Israel is to blame for the problems here when Hamas is terrible as well. If thats the requirement to be accepted by this thread, I guess you dont want any discourse in here at all. Israel, as the occupying power, is responsible for everything that happens. That's how it works. Everything, everything that happens in Palestine is Israel's responsibility, because they and they alone are the sovereign power there. If you don't like that, you should advocate for an immediate end to the occupation, so that a free and sovereign Palestine could be responsible for itself.
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Jul 23, 2018 19:12
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Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel?
vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 19:39
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zapplez posted:Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel? The conditions which led to the bus bombings are mostly Israel's fault, yes. The person who did the actual crime also shares responsibility, but to a lesser degree than the state of Israel, in my opinion.
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Jul 23, 2018 19:50
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zapplez posted:Okay then. I'm trying to speak politely and honestly to the people in this thread from my background and experiences. I am not going to say only Israel is to blame for the problems here when Hamas is terrible as well. If thats the requirement to be accepted by this thread, I guess you dont want any discourse in here at all. Here's the relevant question: what could Hamas do differently that would result in a better outcome for Gaza? The answer is that there's really very little that would appreciably change their circumstances. So yes, there are perfectly valid things to criticize Hamas for (although even then, the extent of their terribleness is frequently exaggerated), but none of those things actually have much of an effect on the actual circumstances in Gaza. Of course, the default response is that if Hamas were "more peaceful" or "less antagonistic" then maybe the IDF wouldn't routinely murder innocent people. Except that decades of history show that it makes no appreciable difference: Israeli domestic politics are what determine how harshly Palestinians are treated, not anything that Palestinians do themselves. zapplez posted:Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel? Individual crimes are the responsibility of responsibility of the people who carry them out, but they are also the responsibility of the conditions that create those crimes. If your point is that not literally every single bad thing that happens within the territory controlled by Israel is 100% the fault of the Israeli government and no one else, then yeah, sure, you're right. But nobody is saying that. We're talking about systemic problems, here. Focusing on random bus bombings (that haven't taken place in more than a decade at this point) makes you seem like a troll. Above, you referred to "the problems here". I, perhaps foolishly, assumed you meant the constant humanitarian crises that plague Palestine. What are a few murder victims next to that? Their lives matter, sure, but focusing on a very small group of victims (who happen to be Israeli Jews) rather than a much, much larger group of victims (who happen to Palestinians) and drawing false equivalencies between them is a pretty classic Israeli propaganda tactic. It works so well that they even manage to do it preemptively, before any Israelis have even been victimized: theoretical Israeli victims are elevated in importance above actual Palestinian ones.
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Jul 23, 2018 19:57
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zapplez posted:Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel? Do you think they would have happened without the occupation?
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Jul 23, 2018 20:00
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zapplez posted:Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel? They absolutely are, yes.
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Jul 23, 2018 20:10
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Desperate actions are justified when you're trying to survive in the death camps of a fascist regime.
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Jul 23, 2018 20:11
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zapplez posted:Are you saying the bus bombings are to be solely blamed upon by Israel? Why would you first look to the oppressed rather than the oppressor to apportion blame?
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Jul 23, 2018 20:13
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