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Perry Mason Jar posted:How does a train compare in terms of emissions anyway? Diesel? Bad. Electric and running off a power grid fueled by fossil fuels? Bad. Electric and running off a power grid fueled by renewables? Hook that poo poo to my veins.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:30
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Perry Mason Jar posted:How does a train compare in terms of emissions anyway? I've seen figures that trains are between 2 and 3x more efficient per passenger-kilometer, obviously extremely variable based on how full X conveyance is, how old it is, how it's fueled, etc. StabbinHobo posted:I'm not comfortable with all this agreement/positive-feedback, so let me add some spice. Yeah, agreed 
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Jul 25, 2018 16:31
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StabbinHobo posted:I'm not comfortable with all this agreement/positive-feedback, so let me add some spice. Also it's 2018 and we're still talking about maybe eating less meat instead of continuing a massive international energy revolution. Not to say these are bad things to do by any means but they are really more for making yourself feel better about what is happening than affecting the final result in any meaningful way. Certainly those who are fighting for local or state legislation are doing important work but unfortunately I can't see how the numbers add up in a positive way. How many fewer steaks do I need to eat to counterbalance Trump pulling us from the Paris accords, which we were never going to meet anyways?
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Jul 25, 2018 16:36
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Mozi posted:Also it's 2018 and we're still talking about maybe eating less meat instead of continuing a massive international energy revolution. A good number of states have signed onto the Paris Accord in defiance of that iirc. I know that Virginia is trying to move to be compliant with the Paris Accord.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:40
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Mozi posted:Also it's 2018 and we're still talking about maybe eating less meat instead of continuing a massive international energy revolution. notice how both of your comments chose to focus on the *least* important item on the list (I put "IN ORDER" in caps for a reason) local and stage legislatures will give a poo poo about these things when a loud and measurable chunk of their constituencies care about these things. they are not leaders they are lagging indicators.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:32
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Virginia is voting on a bill that will ban all state investment in fossil fuel technologies and divert all of it to green tech. They are already placing moritoriums on coal plant use in the state and are managing coal ash disposal. poo poo happens on a state level if people get involved. You can make an appointment with your state rep and city council rep to tell thrm what you want done. Get a group together and start spamming their inbox, make an appointment as a interest group. They are starved for votes because no one pays attention to state races. It works even if they are in a CHUD filled district.
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Jul 25, 2018 17:55
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Sorry for the double post. Each state has a list of ALL legislation that is on the docket for the year. You can use that as a jumping off point by looking through it, finding bills that would hurt the environment or fail to decrease emissions and then send your rep an email/letter. State reps are different than Congress. They dont have massive monied interests behind them because no one cares about local politics. They will listen if they can count on your vote.
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Jul 25, 2018 18:02
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Perry Mason Jar posted:The thing about climate change is there's not a single place you can hide from it. On the other hand, as the slow-moving collapse progresses it's unlikely you'll want to be in cities. In terms of disaster prone areas I think maybe parts of South America will be best for a time. That said any prepper type thing you do should be nomadic, yeah. Aren't rich shitheads buying tracts of land in NZ and Patagonia for exactly this reason? As a cynical real estate investment or personal escape haven?
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Jul 25, 2018 18:22
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I've heard NZ for sure, Patagonia is news to me but I can see it being a good choice if that's what you're going for, sure.
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Jul 25, 2018 18:28
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Perry Mason Jar posted:I've heard NZ for sure, Patagonia is news to me but I can see it being a good choice if that's what you're going for, sure. Good. We have a localized place to send the guillotines then.
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Jul 25, 2018 18:30
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Shibawanko posted:Aren't rich shitheads buying tracts of land in NZ and Patagonia for exactly this reason? As a cynical real estate investment or personal escape haven?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:14
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friendbot2000 posted:I honestly can't fathom how you can possibly be happy with this outlook. It is such a copout and lazy. If that is how you really feel then why are you even alive? I mean if nihilism is all you feel, what is keeping you here? I just don't understand people like you. We don't get a second chance at life and I'm sorry reality is just too difficult for you to cope with.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:16
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Shifty Nipples posted:We don't get a second chance at life and I'm sorry reality is just too difficult for you to cope with. I'm kinda with Shifty Nip's on this one... The outlook does not seem to be good long term & that gives me nightmare's, but Humans have always had to struggle & that's why we've got to where we are, a comparative 'age of plenty' compared to the rest of history. As an individual there's not much to be done other than follow the advice previously posted in the thread & enjoy the ride, i.e. your life & hope we come through this latest challenge. The alternative is depression & that's not going to help .
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Jul 25, 2018 19:43
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Weird how everyone had plenty of advice on the need to live sad and alone eating gruel in a dark room with no family and how vitally important it was everyone did that until someone actually asks what they can do then it turns out there was nothing they could do. This post comes to us after two and a half pages mostly about the activity you can engage in  Fuuuuckkkkk oooooffffffffffffffffffffff
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Jul 25, 2018 22:29
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Every tenth of a degree we don't warm is a tenth of a degree better Literally gently caress yourself if you cannot meet this fundamental truth eye to eye
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Jul 25, 2018 22:30
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"No action is possible, don't bother dragging the overton window, +420C is inevitable" eat poo poo
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Jul 25, 2018 22:32
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Potato Salad posted:"No action is possible, don't bother dragging the overton window, +420C is inevitable" Exactly. And yet, we are the ones that can't accept "reality". The reality is that you can effect real change in your community and have a ripple effect into the wider influence sphere instead of wringing your hands and going "well, we had a good run." Like a bunch of shiftless cowards.
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Jul 25, 2018 22:34
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You know what? Go for it. Good luck, and I mean that.
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Jul 25, 2018 22:37
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Very enlightened 1840's individual: "It's going to take a war to free the slaves. I may as well not fere my slaves because abolition as a trend will never take off"
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Jul 25, 2018 22:39
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Mozi posted:You know what? Go for it. Good luck, and I mean that. The question is, of course, when others come to you asking for sacrifices to marginally improve the climate's future will you accept them?
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Jul 25, 2018 22:53
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Potato Salad posted:Very enlightened 1840's individual: "It's going to take a war to free the slaves. I may as well not fere my slaves because abolition as a trend will never take off" 1840s dummy fake woke activist: we simply need to personally reduce our personal individual cotton consumption.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:03
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*In a jocular tone that suggests sarcasm, but you can't help but feel there's a kernel of honesty in there* Ecoterrorism is also probably an effective individual form of action Speaking of which, if anyone is interested in a good and odd movie about ecoterrorism, check out Woman at War https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFxz4oNfBV0 Learn how to bring down electricity pylons!
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Jul 25, 2018 23:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:1840s dummy fake woke activist: we simply need to personally reduce our personal individual cotton consumption. Not a surprise to see you advocating wearing slave-produced cotton.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:11
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Not a surprise to see you advocating wearing slave-produced cotton. You simply need to get used to a world where there is no cotton if you want to support no slavery. -this thread in 1840.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:13
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I'll loving wear linen, you can keep your drat cotton you damned slavery apologist.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:14
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Getting a vasectomy is really cool and good
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Jul 25, 2018 23:23
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Potato Salad posted:Very enlightened 1840's individual: "It's going to take a war to free the slaves. I may as well not fere my slaves because abolition as a trend will never take off" This. A thousand times this. When I hear claptrap about how "Americans will never accept any law that stands in the way of all mighty profit, bla bla bla change is impossible the economy is king, you cannot legislate morality" I remind myself that the emancipation proclamation is a thing. A thing that totally wrecked the southern economy, which was what Confederates were afraid of, and yup, it happened. Still hasn't healed either! But the Yankees did it anyway, with bayonetts and cannons and a secret weapon comprised of one drunk and one maniac turned loose on their own doomed countrymen. So yeah, when I hear the governor of California whining about how abolishing fossil fuels would hurt the economy, all I can think of is "that didn't stop US Grant and Uncle Billy now did it?". And then I can't help but griiiiin...
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Jul 25, 2018 23:24
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BoldFrankensteinMir posted:This. A thousand times this. When I hear claptrap about how "Americans will never accept any law that stands in the way of all mighty profit, bla bla bla change is impossible the economy is king, you cannot legislate morality" I remind myself that the emancipation proclamation is a thing. A thing that totally wrecked the southern economy, which was what Confederates were afraid of, and yup, it happened. Still hasn't healed either! But the Yankees did it anyway, with bayonetts and cannons and a secret weapon comprised of one drunk and one maniac turned loose on their own doomed countrymen. But before they came with cannons and guns they did this (boycotting cotton and other slave products amongst many other things):  The tide of Northern opinion was changed by the individual and collective actions of abolitionists. We won't get the international climate force without militant individual and collective actions first.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:29
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Trabisnikof posted:The question is, of course, when others come to you asking for sacrifices to marginally improve the climate's future will you accept them? Why does it matter if they do? Your victory is assured, and to think otherwise is cowardice.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:38
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Ratoslov posted:Why does it matter if they do? Your victory is assured, and to think otherwise is cowardice. You're trying to cast this into some win/lose when climate is a cause of lose or lose more. This idea that we lost, we can just give up and enjoy ourselves is just another flavor of FYGM and it relies upon that win/lose fantasy; that all bad options are equally the same. Of course it matters how much effort is required to coax sacrifices out of those who need to make them, because that's a cost that will be measured in real harm and real lives. That's why social and cultural changes are so critical because the depth of political and economic changes we're facing mean that the more FYGM that delays action the worse the impacts will be. That's the status quo and it will change, but individual and collective action can accelerate that change and in doing so, reduce more harm than those individual actions themselves did.
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Jul 25, 2018 23:45
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Trabisnikof posted:But before they came with cannons and guns they did this (boycotting cotton and other slave products amongst many other things): An excellent point. I also think it's important to remember that when people say "as soon as you even consider violence you've lost", they've forgotten that John Brown and Nat Turner were flat-out murderers and yet history remembers them as heroes. Not promoting violence per se myself, just pointing out that doing so for the right cause does not instantly disqualify you from humanity. Hell, they sang songs about Brown as they mowed Johnny Reb down, and people still reenact it as a glorious victory for freedom.
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Jul 26, 2018 00:08
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BoldFrankensteinMir posted:I'm not talking about your three things so much as your calculation of one person's effect. Trying to isolate a single human's influence is oversimplified because society is hypercomplex and interconnected, that's my only point. I think that mere example was a strange thing to focus in on for critique, when the point I was making was that your impact is proportional to how much you've changed. That doesn't say "you personally have changed." Those three things are what is important, not some example. We get stuck on broad proscriptions - don't have kids, have a car, don't have a house, don't fly, don't eat meat, etc. Yet, each of these focuses only on one of the three ways we can attack climate change: human CO2 emissions. We certainly must reduce carbon in the atmosphere if possible; hell, IPCC projections depend on it - either carbon capture or reducing emissions substantially. The focus on CO2 emissions isn't bad, per se, but consider how dire things already are - and realize that it will keep getting worse even if we were to forever cut emissions to 0 today for a number of years to come. The rate of change might slow and eventually reverse, but we've baked in a lot already. Then, there's dimming on top of that, which would quickly go away on cessation of fossil fuel emissions and make things even worse. Short of a global collapse, I don't really see that happening except slowly and over a long period of time, which leaves only two other avenues of attack: 1) Radiation from the Sun is reradiated by the Earth at less energetic wavelengths. 2) Greenhouse gases intercept and reemit certain frequencies partly back towards the surface. What can we do there? Well, we can't do too much about #2 that I know of; physics isn't exactly my field, but maybe there's something I don't know about there. #1 is a different story - we're already accidentally doing that with dimming. We could also color structures a reflective color to increase albedo. On the other hand, glass is pretty much opaque to infrared, so unless you could funnel exhaust high into the atmosphere, it is actively not helping. It's also where you hear ideas like solar shades, and is what governments will likely do if they ever actually try to do anything: geoengineering to intentionally cause dimming.
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Jul 26, 2018 04:26
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Yeah but if emissions keep growing that makes negative emissions all that harder. Please do focus on bailing the water out of the boat, we need you to do it and thank you. There's also people plugging up the holes, and we need them too.
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Jul 26, 2018 04:48
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Potato Salad posted:"No action is possible, don't bother dragging the overton window, +420C is inevitable"  And positive change to help the crisis go from a 10 to a 7 is already coming. You want reality? Solar energy in a lot of countries is quickly becoming cheaper and more profitable than coal. Put that into an energy perspective and we're going to see a lot of places drop rather than raise emissions. And what does that do? Make the temperature predictions stagnate. For instance: https://www.technologyreview.com/the-download/611025/china-is-installing-a-bewildering-and-potentially-troublesome-amount-of-solar/ https://www.businessinsider.com/solar-power-cost-decrease-2018-5?r=US&IR=T&utm_source=reddit.com Grouchio fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 05:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:That, and the fear of non-climate change related revolution. Good if they all concentrate into a single geographical location. A few well placed nukes could solve a lot of problems then.
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Jul 26, 2018 06:56
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why is solar better when everyone ignores the external costs?
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Jul 26, 2018 06:58
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What are the most effective forms of carbon sequestration now anyway? Would global reforestation projects have a noticeable effect for example?
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Jul 26, 2018 09:03
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China's Coal Use Climbs Despite Pollution Plansquote:China's coal consumption appears to be rising at a rapid rate in 2018, erasing several years of low growth and environmental restraint.
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Jul 26, 2018 16:23
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Grognan posted:why is solar better when everyone ignores the external costs? Unlike Coal, Gas or Nuclear that have no external costs?
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Jul 26, 2018 16:46
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Grognan posted:why is solar better when everyone ignores the external costs? Because solar panels don't have particular external costs beyond the dumb observation that literally every manufactured object does that people try to use as a gotcha to single out environmentally friendly but not environmentally unfriendly objects.
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Jul 26, 2018 16:53
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