|
Postoyevsky posted:yes how could you ever tell the difference between having surplus value vacuumed up by rich assholes vs. democratically getting to decided, with your fellow workers, what to do with that surplus value The people whining about how the coop workers are exploiting themselves seem to be incapable for some reason.
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 19:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 03:33 |
|
|
Karl Barks posted:this argument happens every time someone brings up co-ops, literally no one thinks this or has ever claimed it. co-ops, trade unions, etc are all just important tools to build class consciousness. it's a bunch of alienating pedantic academic BS when people bring up that point. sorry for getting feisty. radical candor. Can you explain how these things build class consciousness? I think I get why you think that but of everyone I've talked to in a union there's been maybe one that even seemed to understand why their union was important in regards to their workplace and their place as a collective group of workers. Most just see it as more money and better benefits. And with co-ops I don't see how having a democratic™ capitalist enterprise makes them conscious of the gulf / relationship between worker and capitalist. I think class consciousness can only be realized on a large scale when capitalism's in crisis, like recessions and depressions and even war.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 19:22
|
|
|
Infernot posted:Can you explain how these things build class consciousness? I think I get why you think that but of everyone I've talked to in a union there's been maybe one that even seemed to understand why their union was important in regards to their workplace and their place as a collective group of workers. Most just see it as more money and better benefits. And with co-ops I don't see how having a democratic™ capitalist enterprise makes them conscious of the gulf / relationship between worker and capitalist. I think class consciousness can only be realized on a large scale when capitalism's in crisis, like recessions and depressions and even war. both are exercises in working cooperatively with other workers - labor unions in particular are building "class consciousness" by default, even if the workers themselves don't understand the buzzwords or terminology. going to a union meeting, picketing, striking, etc, are all important exercises and the building blocks of class consciousness.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 19:41
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:The people whining about how the coop workers are exploiting themselves seem to be incapable for some reason. Well, you can either choose to run yourself out of business or realize profits approximately at the same rate as as everyone else. Love 2 vote on who to lay off as overproduction occurs. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 19:44
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:Well, you can either choose to run yourself out of business or realize profits approximately at the same rate as as everyone else. material conditions at co-ops are almost universally better for workers than in a traditional workplace, op. hope this helps. there's multiple in the DC Metro region that have been around for decades
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 19:57
|
|
|
Postoyevsky posted:material conditions at co-ops are almost universally better for workers than in a traditional workplace, op. hope this helps. You could say this about air conditioned workplaces, and while they are good and cool (  ) they aren't revolutionary. Eventually you have to lay someone off and that person no longer benefits from the air conditioning.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:08
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:You could say this about air conditioned workplaces, and while they are good and cool ( you could say that, good point op
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:11
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:You could say this about air conditioned workplaces, and while they are good and cool ( NO DUH. The whole loving point of this discussion is that co-ops aren't revolutionary, they're a middling step between where we are now and Full Gay Space Communism. Same with unions, higher minimum wage, etc. We can't wait around for the revolution, we need to improve poo poo now and then keep working to further improve poo poo. And bonus, if you show people that better things are possible, it makes them more likely to look at their own situation and go "hey this sucks, I want that better thing!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:12
|
|
|
Postoyevsky posted:both are exercises in working cooperatively with other workers - labor unions in particular are building "class consciousness" by default, even if the workers themselves don't understand the buzzwords or terminology. going to a union meeting, picketing, striking, etc, are all important exercises and the building blocks of class consciousness. And how many unions participate in strikes these days? The recent ones I can think of are the teachers strikes that happened in several states, but as far as I can tell it's just union reps doing a bit of negotiating with the bosses and the workers not partaking much in collective action. I do agree that unions are an exercise for workers' action, but from my experience class consciousness isn't something they produce, and at least here in the US unions are pretty much dead and what's left of unions they are fangless. I'm just curious, what do you define class consciousness as if the workers aren't conscious of their relationship with capitalists, and in regards to capitalism as a whole? I've always heard Leninists banging on that we have to spread class consciousness but I feel like people use the term for any vaguely left activity by workers.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:13
|
|
|
i mean technically, getting paid $1.00/hr is better than literal slavery. eventually though that person will get laid off and won't benefit from that $1/hr. makes you think!!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:13
|
|
|
Infernot posted:And how many unions participate in strikes these days? The recent ones I can think of are the teachers strikes that happened in several states, but as far as I can tell it's just union reps doing a bit of negotiating with the bosses and the workers not partaking much in collective action. I do agree that unions are an exercise for workers' action, but from my experience class consciousness isn't something they produce, and at least here in the US unions are pretty much dead and what's left of unions they are fangless. literally every single union still in existence participates in strikes, even the lovely ones. you can only recently think of the teachers strikes because youre grossly misinformed on the US labor movement. class consciousness is absolutely produced by being in a labor union, even if, like I said, they don't understand the terminology.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:15
|
|
|
saying every union does strikes highly minimalizes the ideas of struggle within the union and bootlickers
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:You could say this about air conditioned workplaces, and while they are good and cool ( is there any one thing that IS revolutionary? co-ops have obvious benefits, like not laying complete control of an entire enterprise at the feet of 1 or 2 people. when crises happen, do you think a co-op is more or less likely to sell off assets than a private company? the point is that allows for a great deal of organization between workers, preventing the atomization and alienation you see in most corporate workplaces. the utility of a co-op changes in an actual socialist society, but the benefits seem obvious to me... Infernot posted:Can you explain how these things build class consciousness? I think I get why you think that but of everyone I've talked to in a union there's been maybe one that even seemed to understand why their union was important in regards to their workplace and their place as a collective group of workers. Most just see it as more money and better benefits. And with co-ops I don't see how having a democratic™ capitalist enterprise makes them conscious of the gulf / relationship between worker and capitalist. I think class consciousness can only be realized on a large scale when capitalism's in crisis, like recessions and depressions and even war. it's about building structures that organize people so that when the time comes, they are in a position of power and not at the mercy of capitalists. like postoyevsky said, a co-op (or union, or whatever structure) puts people in the mindset that they're in this together, instead of working towards the wealth of someone else. where are most people 8-12 hours a day? they're at work, it's where organizing should be done.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:20
|
|
|
quote:The game industry is not exactly known for valuing workers. Big studios are rife with soul-destroying crunch and end-of-project layoffs. French studio Motion Twin, developer of the Castlevania-inspired roguelike Dead Cells, is trying something different: Workers own and manage the company. There is no boss. Video games
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
and uhhh yes, AC is good and I think workers should have it, especially in hot humid environments
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:23
|
|
|
belgend posted:saying every union does strikes highly minimalizes the ideas of struggle within the union and bootlickers it's not necessarily mutually exclusive. there's plenty of members in my union who still go on strike (we have several hundred members on strike right now) who are without question bootlickers, Trump supporters, what have you. they just (correctly) recognize that striking during contract disputes benefits them personally. It's a factual thing, though, that unions still do participate in strikes. I'm certainly not one to minimize the challenges and struggles within the US labor movement (and the necessity of increasing militancy, direct actions, prioritizing the rank and file, etc)
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:24
|
|
|
A/C is a clever ploy to trick me into coming to work, and I have to say it's effective.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:25
|
|
|
Postoyevsky posted:literally every single union still in existence participates in strikes, even the lovely ones. you can only recently think of the teachers strikes because youre grossly misinformed on the US labor movement. class consciousness is absolutely produced by being in a labor union, even if, like I said, they don't understand the terminology. Enlighten me on the US labor movement then. Where are the strikes happening? I'd love to see how you're gauging class consciousness, there must be a precise measurement tool if you're so sure. quote:In 2017, there were 7 major work stoppages involving 1,000 or more workers and lasting at least one shift, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Since the series began in 1947 this is the second lowest number of major work stoppages recorded in a year, the lowest annual total was 5 in 2009. (See table 1.) Major work stoppages beginning in 2017 idled 25,000 workers, the second lowest number of workers idled annually since 1947. The lowest number of workers idled was 13,000 in 2009. In 2017 the information industry sector had the most workers idled by a major work stoppage with 15,000 workers, which accounted for over half of all workers idled. Public administration accounted for the second largest number of workers idled by major work stoppages with over 5,000 workers, or a fifth of all workers idled. (See tables 1 and 2.) In 2017, the largest major work stoppage by days idle occurred between Charter Communications and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers union with 345,600 total days idle and involving 1,800 workers. This work stoppage was one of two major work stoppages within the information industry, the second was between AT&T and the Communication Workers of America involving 13,200 workers and lasting one day. Sounds like the US labor movement is blossoming thanks to record low union membership and work stoppages.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
Infernot posted:a democratic™ capitalist enterprise a cooperative is democratic worker ownership of the means of production. that is inherently not capitalist
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:NO DUH. revolutions tend to go to the parties that have plans and means when the crisis hits. This is true of revolutionary movements as well as reactionary ones. hell, the shock doctrine is exactly this for reactionary capital. Plans like this are good but only relate tangentially to the idea of enacting FGSM when the revolution comes. That involves spreading your ideas and having your people in place and in power when the time comes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
Infernot posted:Enlighten me on the US labor movement then. Where are the strikes happening? I'd love to see how you're gauging class consciousness, there must be a precise measurement tool if you're so sure. 🅱️-Meter
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
Karl Barks posted:is there any one thing that IS revolutionary? organizing production, or at least a substantial sector of production, around non circulating labor vouchers would be revolutionary, yes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:34
|
|
|
Bring back company scrip imo
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:37
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:organizing production, or at least a substantial sector of production, around non circulating labor vouchers would be revolutionary, yes. okay and how are you going to do that
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:38
|
|
|
A co-op having democratic say over who it lays off in time of economic crisis is leagues better than unilateral lay-offs from on high. Believe it or not, workers are capable of assessing their own economic and personal conditions, and sharing them in a public space. Even in traditional organizations, allowing workers to know lay-offs are coming and leaving them to the decision making has relatively positive outcomes, like those workers who planned on finding another job or moving voluntarily accepting lay-offs so those more in need/desire for the job are able to stay. I'm sure it's not fun, and I'm also sure there are some politics involved, but there is a gulf between that and some CEO pointing at the people he likes the least and Trumpishly saying "You're fired."
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:39
|
|
|
Sheng-Ji Yang posted:a cooperative is democratic worker ownership of the means of production. that is inherently not capitalist Of course, hence why thanks to Mondragon we're slowly replacing evil profit of capitalism with bosses and stuff with socialist democratic egalitarian profit, where workers get to decide how best to circulate capital like before with bosses but instead by a vote among their fellow workers. And that same vote on laying off themselves. Not to mention the socialistic democratic idea of private property that cooperatives still uphold. Socialistic democratic estrangement of labor is a good thing but undemocratic capitalist estrangement and wage labor is bad. All of this is precisely why places with a lot of cooperatives are mixed economies like what high school economics taught you (you know, a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. Like Scandinavia!). Silly ultras, we're halfway to bringing heaven on Earth, we just need more worker owned big businesses.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:39
|
|
|
Infernot posted:Of course, hence why thanks to Mondragon we're slowly replacing evil profit of capitalism with bosses and stuff with socialist democratic egalitarian profit, where workers get to decide how best to circulate capital like before with bosses but instead by a vote among their fellow workers. And that same vote on laying off themselves. Not to mention the socialistic democratic idea of private property that cooperatives still uphold. Socialistic democratic estrangement of labor is a good thing but undemocratic capitalist estrangement and wage labor is bad. All of this is precisely why places with a lot of cooperatives are mixed economies like what high school economics taught you (you know, a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. Like Scandinavia!). Silly ultras, we're halfway to bringing heaven on Earth, we just need more worker owned big businesses. Also three continents of slave labor.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:41
|
|
|
Infernot posted:Of course, hence why thanks to Mondragon we're slowly replacing evil profit of capitalism with bosses and stuff with socialist democratic egalitarian profit, where workers get to decide how best to circulate capital like before with bosses but instead by a vote among their fellow workers. And that same vote on laying off themselves. Not to mention the socialistic democratic idea of private property that cooperatives still uphold. Socialistic democratic estrangement of labor is a good thing but undemocratic capitalist estrangement and wage labor is bad. All of this is precisely why places with a lot of cooperatives are mixed economies like what high school economics taught you (you know, a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. Like Scandinavia!). Silly ultras, we're halfway to bringing heaven on Earth, we just need more worker owned big businesses. yeah why do anything at all to make peoples lives marginally better. higher minimum wage? nah thats just supporting wage slavery. truly a galaxy brain take right here, folks
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:42
|
|
|
Infernot posted:we just need more worker owned big businesses. who is saying this
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Postoyevsky posted:yeah why do anything at all to make peoples lives marginally better. There's a difference between improving the lives of workers and arguing that cooperatives and unions are socialism lmao. If what you gleaned from my parody of some of you is that workers shouldn't be struggling for better conditions and participating in a labor movement, then unfortunately I have to make you retake your GED test.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Infernot posted:cooperatives and unions are socialism lmao. no one thinks this
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:46
|
|
|
Postoyevsky posted:yeah why do anything at all to make peoples lives marginally better. every time the minimum wage in cali goes up a little more, all prices go up about twice as much, so uhh
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:46
|
|
|
Infernot posted:There's a difference between improving the lives of workers and arguing that cooperatives and unions are socialism lmao. If what you gleaned from my parody of some of you is that workers shouldn't be struggling for better conditions and participating in a labor movement, then unfortunately I have to make you retake your GED test. dunno who's arguing that cooperatives and unions are socialism, but it isn't me and it isn't anyone that i've seen itt take a deep breath champ
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:46
|
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:every time the minimum wage in cali goes up a little more, all prices go up about twice as much, so uhh wrong
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:47
|
|
|
If someone asks me "should I start a co-op?", one of the questions I ask in return isn't going to be "how socialist do you wanna be?" Co-ops are alternatives to businesses; if you want to start a business and also be a little less poo poo that your average business, you'd run it like a co-op. However, if you don't plan on building a business, with all that entails, you shouldn't start a co-op. There are a whole host of options avaliable that are 'friendlier' capitalism. I see no inherent problem with them, because they are not alternatives to socialism, they are alternatives to present day capitalism. If your goal is instead Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism as quickly as possible, I wouldn't recommend a co-op only because you'd probably see greater returns by withholding all labor but political labor. Whether you want to risk that is up to you and your personal situation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:54
|
|
|
Infernot posted:Of course, hence why thanks to Mondragon we're slowly replacing evil profit of capitalism with bosses and stuff with socialist democratic egalitarian profit, where workers get to decide how best to circulate capital like before with bosses but instead by a vote among their fellow workers. And that same vote on laying off themselves. Not to mention the socialistic democratic idea of private property that cooperatives still uphold. Socialistic democratic estrangement of labor is a good thing but undemocratic capitalist estrangement and wage labor is bad. All of this is precisely why places with a lot of cooperatives are mixed economies like what high school economics taught you (you know, a healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. Like Scandinavia!). Silly ultras, we're halfway to bringing heaven on Earth, we just need more worker owned big businesses. cool but coops arent capitalist
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:56
|
|
|
so your saying being a failson with Daddy's Money is actually praxis. i see
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:57
|
|
|
Larry Parrish posted:every time the minimum wage in cali goes up a little more, all prices go up about twice as much, so uhh lmao they absolutely do not
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 03:33 |
|
|
Karl Barks posted:who is saying this quote:co-ops make sense in certain industries, trade unions work in others. China's SOEs are basically corporate structures that have embedded Communist party representatives. it really depends on the situation. the United States has a history of trade unionism, and to a lesser extent co-ops. google Mondragon Corporation, it'll blow ur mind It blew my mind that you can have a multi-billion dollar corporations ran by workers in capitalism. Also, previously you said that co-ops are the most likely avenue for workers to organize themselves "to do labour to make all the things that we need and and want to do" which I assume the other person who posted this original phrase you responded to, is referring to socialism. So it's not a leap to say you probably think co-operatives are "socialistic" or some other meaningless term and different somehow from capitalism. Karl Barks posted:no one thinks this quote:a cooperative is democratic worker ownership of the means of production. that is inherently not capitalist This is on the same page, big fella. And as I talked about above, I'm getting a similar vibe that you think co-ops are something different than capitalist businesses...
|
|
#
?
Jul 26, 2018 20:59
|
|