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Most of the issues with CofD and WW is basically spin in order to frame WoD as the main product. In conversations and interviews with Martin he has expressed that CofD is perfect for making your own horror settings free of a unified metaplot. It also acts as a good sandbox for systems that can then be ported over to WoD. The documentary is a glaringly bad piece. Since it utterly omits OPP. And paints the fall of WW due to Requiem etc. The documentary of course was trying to paint the picture that WW rose from the flames like a phoenix. It also paints WoD being the dream of one man, rather than really being a work of many and the choice of who to name "creator" is really more a technicality. In conversation with Martin and Tobias at WoD Berlin a year ago we made it very clear that this time round there is no excuse like bricks and mortar stores closing, or changes in book publishing, if V5 fails. And that if V5 sells well initially do not project future books to sell as well. The initial spike will be due to everyone being it just because of the words "Vampire" and "White Wolf", and there may be no intention from many of these people to buy future books or play. Their aim has to be a new demographic and to expand from there. I compared it to Age of Sigmar, since that really did turn around Warhammer fantasy sales, even if the most vocal complaints came from people who hardly bought anything anymore from GW. dr_ether fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 19:13
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Archonex posted:I am starting to wonder why the hell the old White Wolf franchises keep attracting so many horrible people though. At this point it's becoming a bit ridiculous. The original white wolf reveled in transgression because very few companies at the time were willing to do so. It's how poo poo like Sasha Vykwhatever, Swastika McNaziBoobs, and the bathroom dildo blood thief got printed. First Edition Werewolf had actual honest to goodness Nazis as a major component of one of the Tribes. And it's probably the thing I'm fearing the most about nuWolf going forward. The Get of Fenris are a giant pile of oily rags, and Swedracula is a very eager match.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:25
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Kurieg posted:And it's probably the thing I'm fearing the most about nuWolf going forward. The Get of Fenris are a giant pile of oily rags, and Swedracula is a very eager match. About the only way this can go well is if their love of Order and Blood Purity causes them to fall to the Weaver and become new muscle for a villain faction. Nazis being uncomfortable allies in the struggle to save Earth can gently caress right off.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:34
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The vision for werewolves in general was, quote, “crypto fascist ecoterrorists.”
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Jul 26, 2018 19:48
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dr_ether posted:Most of the issues with CofD and WW is basically spin in order to frame WoD as the main product. In conversations and interviews with Martin he has expressed that CofD is perfect for making your own horror settings free of a unified metaplot. It also acts as a good sandbox for systems that can then be ported over to WoD. I didn't watch the documentary. Did it give all credits to Dot Hagen? Because I can think of a hell of a lot of other people who were important to the oWoD. As well as the Ars Magica connection.
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Jul 26, 2018 19:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:"slightly better mechanics but also a worse setting and meta-plot" To be fair, the first edition main books were terrible. I hated nMage when it came out, because it seemed incredibly bland and boring. Now it's one of my favorite systems.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:00
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OPP was ommitted. Rich Thomas never mentioned. The leading minds behind mage and werewolf never mentioned. WoD without those people is not WoD and just Vampire. I don't really go in for the hero worship of MRH. Sure he had the ideas for Vampire, but it is more than one man's world building, and requires other minds to help steer the ship. There is a fun moment when in the documentary when they are talking to a larper, and right behind her shoulder is the Seers of the Throne book. At the premier at Berlin I almost gave a loud cheer given how much this had been a lot of WW wank with no OPP mentioned. I still need to grill Martin on "Requiem rules are design in a play to win manner". Which is funny given what is in V5. If you listen to the DDR play through and know much about Requiem, you can see how I have built my Requiem Manchester setting years ago, and now just filed off the serial numbers.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:04
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Don't forget that MR*H was sort of fired for being impossible to work with/for.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:06
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Lord_Hambrose posted:About the only way this can go well is if their love of Order and Blood Purity causes them to fall to the Weaver and become new muscle for a villain faction. Mostly the Nazi camp was just there for the Get to have a Nazi camp (because German, I guess) and for them to get purged in Revised because I don't think Ethan Skemp wanted a thing to do with them.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:09
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Get of Fenris went from being "We're totally not racists *Wink* It just so happens that all the people we hate are lazy blacks *Wink Wink*" in 1st edition to being hyper aggressive Minnesotan Hockey Parents(that really really hate Nazis) in Revised. "I don't care that you can't bench press a car you are going to go in there and you are going to WIN that spelling bee! You are going to crush them under the weight of your lexicographical knowledge!"
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Jul 26, 2018 20:12
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dr_ether posted:The initial spike will be due to everyone being it just because of the words "Vampire" and "White Wolf", and there may be no intention from many of these people to buy future books or play. Their aim has to be a new demographic and to expand from there. Emphasis mine, because this is the most important part, and why so many people are upset with the direction they've gone. They're ignoring where the world has gone since Masquerade was last the big vampire game in town and are clearly missing that bringing in new players is what will make or break their line. Going and trying to be the spergiest sperg-lord on the roleplaying block doesn't strike me as what the next generation of gamers is going to go in for, and it will be a niche of people at best. Requiem is probably better suited at this time to bring in the next generation of gamers to the vampire thing. Just look at the difference between Ann Rice's line and Twilight books. Clearly, the next generation wants Edward and not Lestat (even if Rice is a better writer and creates a more interesting world). So write for the audience that exists, not the audience you wish exists.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:13
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dr_ether posted:OPP was ommitted. Rich Thomas never mentioned. The leading minds behind mage and werewolf never mentioned. WoD without those people is not WoD and just Vampire. The Wiecks are easily as important as MRH, and then there's Bruce Baugh, Grabowsky, Rich Dansky and later people like Justin Achilli, Greg Stolze, and I'm missing a ton here.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:15
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Fortunately the Vampire Chronicles TV series is in the works, so people will be more inclined for Vampires that are less Twilight like. The demographic issue is a massive issue. You either make a new edition and players say "It hasn't changed enough... why should I buy this?" or you change it a lot like Requiem, and players will go "Whaaa.... you destroyed my game". I don't envy trying to walk that line. And perhaps being brave, shaking up the setting, shaking up the rules, is the best approach. Now all of that combined with much more nuanced, less excitable puppy, approaches to writing and PR is important.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:18
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Wiecks are easily as important as MRH, and then there's Bruce Baugh, Grabowsky, Rich Dansky and later people like Justin Achilli, Greg Stolze, and I'm missing a ton here. The Wiecks appear, as does Justin. The others. Nowhere to be seen. Where was Bill Bridges even? I don't think there is a "creator" of World of Darkness. Just people that collectively dabbled in it and built it together from different directions.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:19
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Wiecks are easily as important as MRH, and then there's Bruce Baugh, Grabowsky, Rich Dansky and later people like Justin Achilli, Greg Stolze, and I'm missing a ton here. Ethan Skemp and Bill Bridges were the "Steer the game into what it is now" Developers of the other two lines.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:20
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MonsieurChoc posted:The Wiecks are easily as important as MRH, and then there's Bruce Baugh, Grabowsky, Rich Dansky and later people like Justin Achilli, Greg Stolze, and I'm missing a ton here. The Wiecks are credited as publishers, but the Documentary narrative gives all creative credit to MRH. And they got Travis Williams on camera because they desperately needed a POC.* No mention of or insight from: Andrew Greenberg Daniel Greenberg Lisa Stevens Chris McDonough Nicole Lindroos Rich Thomas Bill Bridges... EDIT: So yeah, the Documentary is basically a weird garbage fire of lies and PR puff *However, Travis was pretty loving rad, so glad he got in the Doc.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:22
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I mean, following the demographic change is why new old white wolf is a moral abomination full of nazi references. They were appealing to edgelords in 1990, they're appealing to edgelords in 2018. The only difference is the edgelords got organized, powerful, and really loving scary in the past decade or so.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:28
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Beerdeer posted:I'm actually curious. My last experience with WoD was back in the 90s. I'm thinking of picking up V20 or CoD. I just want to know what's been going on. Sorry. dr_ether posted:Fortunately the Vampire Chronicles TV series is in the works, so people will be more inclined for Vampires that are less Twilight like.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:30
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Nessus posted:Depends how you mean by "less Twilight-like." I would be a drat fool to make a TV show with vampire characters who aren't explicitly Nosferatus, and to not make those draculas sexxy. That's like eight percent of the world economy now, sexy vampire books. That and Tinglers As in actually being actual monsters, and vampires seeing their existence as a curse rather than a means to play baseball.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:37
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Nessus posted:Depends how you mean by "less Twilight-like." I would be a drat fool to make a TV show with vampire characters who aren't explicitly Nosferatus, and to not make those draculas sexxy. That's like eight percent of the world economy now, sexy vampire books. That and Tinglers Pounded in the rear end by a Gnostic Representation of My Own Monstrosity.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:38
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dr_ether posted:And perhaps being brave, shaking up the setting, shaking up the rules, is the best approach ah yes, such bravery such utter bravery as 'only condemning Nazis when forced to' and 'going for the edgiest, most 90s possible presentation whenever allowed to' and 'making a character an implied child predator' such bravery as rewriting parts of a Werewolf book to insert a bit about how werewolves' transformation will reverse any surgical sexual modification, for no reason except to make being trans harder so brave gently caress off, go slobber Ericsson's knob on your own time
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Jul 26, 2018 20:39
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To be fair they admitted that it was a bad idea once confronted on it. To be even more fair they shouldn't have needed to be confronted. It was an incredibly bad idea. Even W:tF did this correctly. What is wrong with you you goddamned fossil of the 90s
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Jul 26, 2018 20:42
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dr_ether posted:As in actually being actual monsters, and vampires seeing their existence as a curse rather than a means to play baseball. "that is so romantic" Kurieg posted:To be fair they admitted that it was a bad idea once confronted on it. However there is a mis-step and then there is a vigorous forward dive with both hands held out in the Hydragruss screaming "MAKE MINE AUTHORITARIANISM, SQUIRREL GIRL" Nessus fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jul 26, 2018 |
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Jul 26, 2018 20:43
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Mors Rattus posted:ah yes, such bravery Brave in this context was meant "To try something different rather than sell exactly the same game again". I did not mean brave in relation to their politics or manner of writing. So for comparison I mean, in a business sense, GW was brave to kill of WHF and to create AoS that used a new system and setting. By comparison WW have changed the rules significantly, and have changed the setting. I do not mean they are personally being brave. Nor am I slobbering on Ericsson's knob thank you.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:47
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Kurieg posted:Ethan Skemp and Bill Bridges were the "Steer the game into what it is now" Developers of the other two lines. Skemp did a whole lot of work getting Revised Werewolf into something much less cringe-y. (He also let Children of Gaia Revised* slip through on his watch, but he apologizes for it.) *Before anybody invariably asks, there is an F&F on the site. Go read it.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:49
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Nessus posted:I feel that it is important to have some charity for the occasional mis-step, especially if you are dealing with a revival property. For instance, any revival of WTA will have to at least address how there are several tribes which are essentially regional ethnic clubs, and several other tribes with an explicit focus on eugenic superiority, which is even a Background you can buy. We've given them as much charity as can reasonably be expected of a playerbase, and more. But they're only just now realizing that "Hey, maybe we should ask people who've worked at OPP how we should handle these Issues." You know, after their first book has gone to print. The ideal time to start walking back your crazy authoritarian hateboner.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:52
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Oh yeah, Skemp deserves a lot of credits. And Andrew Bates was the main dev of Trinity and Adventure! and those games were great.
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Jul 26, 2018 20:58
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Kurieg posted:We've given them as much charity as can reasonably be expected of a playerbase, and more. But they're only just now realizing that "Hey, maybe we should ask people who've worked at OPP how we should handle these Issues."
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Jul 26, 2018 20:58
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Jhet posted:So write for the audience that exists, not the audience you wish exists. gently caress that. You should absolutely write for the audience you wish exists. (Or even better, write the game you personally want to play.) It's just that you should wish for a good audience that likes good things, as opposed to an audience of Swedracula.
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Jul 26, 2018 21:50
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Jhet posted:Clearly, the next generation wants Edward and not Lestat (even if Rice is a better writer and creates a more interesting world). So write for the audience that exists, not the audience you wish exists. More importantly, the next generation doesn't want to be Sascha Vykos; they want to be Korra or Pearl. The transgression-for-its-own-sake-let's-shock-the-normies aesthetic has basically no traction right now.
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Jul 26, 2018 22:04
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Rand Brittain posted:The transgression-for-its-own-sake-let's-shock-the-normies aesthetic has basically no traction right now. My dude, I would loving LOVE to live in the reality you live in
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Jul 26, 2018 23:16
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Except that both Age of Sigmar and V5 aren't really brave at all because they exist in a structure where the old product continues to exist in significant ways as a hedge against them failing. I mean, I think the real issue is that I don't really want to give money to someone who was stupid enough to bring Zak S on board because they will very quickly do something else really stupid and my investment will be worth zero because I won't be able to stand to look at the books knowing I was warned in advance and bought them anyway.
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Jul 26, 2018 23:24
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I think the problem is that the audience for the transgressive shock-jock bullshit of triggering the normies and such isn't also gonna be buying forty dollar books and funny dice to play it out. They'll go find some group for the Kansas City Pet Rescue or a woman posting videos about video games and do it live, in real life. or they're playing pathfinder already What I think would be an actually interesting twist in the oWoD would have been to instead present the problem of how to integrate all this hoary old poo poo into the modern day without this veil. How to bring it in from the shed without destroying it. I don't think you would have to necessarily make the focus on somehow serving mass market humanity but you would have to be in relation to them, rather than concealed.
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Jul 26, 2018 23:28
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Digital Osmosis posted:My dude, I would loving LOVE to live in the reality you live in I'd agree with him. The ironic racism and pure shock is gone and anyone left has been turned into a dyed in the wool nazi. The kids these days are also pretty ernest. Lots of horrible poo poo still exists but it isn't being done for the act of transgression, it's sadly being done by actual nazis.
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Jul 26, 2018 23:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:gently caress that. You should absolutely write for the audience you wish exists. (Or even better, write the game you personally want to play.) It's just that you should wish for a good audience that likes good things, as opposed to an audience of Swedracula. Yes, if it were you or I, we could write for an audience we wish exists. But we're also apparently wishing for an audience that is a more ideal audience and not a bunch of 40 year old edgelords from the '90s. My wording could have been better, but I think the point is still there. I think we're in agreement that a game that Ericsson writes for himself is probably not the audience that we're wanting. Rand Brittain posted:More importantly, the next generation doesn't want to be Sascha Vykos; they want to be Korra or Pearl. The transgression-for-its-own-sake-let's-shock-the-normies aesthetic has basically no traction right now. Definitely true. But gender politics has also advanced 20+ years since Vykos, and the world is a different place. It's more accepting in some places, and much more confused for a lot of people. It really isn't shocking, and handling it poorly will only bring a lot of disdain from a reasonably vocal population. It's a very different message that should be sent, and while that doesn't mean you must write Vykos out, it really needs to be handled in the lens that people are going to consume it through. In the Nomads Requiem supplement there is a Invictus society that's purpose is for teaching Elder's how to interact Properly with the new changes in society. That would have been a useful credit for someone to have content edited V5 for the 21st century. There wouldn't have been as much furor, but it showed up in a Requiem book, so...
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Jul 27, 2018 00:46
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I know this isn't the topic at this point, but could someone explain the Thanatologists to me? The whole "rejection of community" element of the metaphor seems pretty heavily baked into them via the "they don't join regular krewes because they're mistrustful because [bullying references], which is why they're villains" bit, but it seems kind of detached from their actual activities as information brokers and scientists. I don't know if I understand how they're separate from, say, Bonepickers ("use ghost things to become powerful/wise for reasons" vs. "use ghost things to get money for reasons") except in terms of metaphorical roles (which I'm also not sure I get). Poltergrift fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jul 27, 2018 |
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Jul 27, 2018 01:41
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Poltergrift posted:I know this isn't the topic at this point, but could someone explain the Thanatologists to me? The whole "rejection of community" element of the metaphor seems pretty heavily baked into them via the "they don't join regular krewes because they're mistrustful because [bullying references], which is why they're villains" bit, but it seems kind of detached from their actual activities as information brokers and scientists. For the metaphor of political action and ghosts as the downtrodden, they're all theory, no praxis; if a Thanatologist found out tomorrow how to kill a Kerberoi and make its Dominion an eternal paradise for lost souls, they'd probably view it with all the bloodless lizard distance of a pollster stumbling upon something like "universal healthcare makes everyone's lives better" and thinking "huh, neat, guess that's what that does." And never, you know...do it. Or even try.
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Jul 27, 2018 01:55
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I good WoD news, we're finally getting Wraith 20 soon.
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Jul 27, 2018 02:22
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Looks like the updated PDF hasn't hit yet, though. Oh, well, I've got a huge backlog of stuff to get through.
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Jul 27, 2018 02:39
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Vampire 5E reviews are starting to pop up https://teylen.blog/2018/07/27/vampire-the-masquerade-5th-edition-first-look/ http://gamingtrend.com/feature/reviews/let-sleeping-antediluvians-lie-vampire-the-masquerade-5th-edition-review/
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