Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: Looks like we're the grognards, now.

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Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

bio347 posted:

The Grab action, specifically, can only target things up to one size category bigger than you per the PHB (unless that was errated out at some point). There is not, however, anything that says powers that grab the target are limited by that (AFAIK).

Yeah the prior answers is what I thought, but this is the kind nuance I need. Got a page number?

# ? Aug 1, 2018 23:50

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:39

bio347: Oct 29, 2012

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah the prior answers is what I thought, but this is the kind nuance I need. Got a page number?

It's page 290 of whichever version I have here. In the "Actions in Combat" section.

# ? Aug 1, 2018 23:52

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Ha, the thing I double checked on was completely missing the target line.

Target: One creature that is no more than one size category larger than you.

But that's for the grab power, not the grabbed condition. So other grabs work fine.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 00:11

Generic Octopus: Mar 27, 2010

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah the prior answers is what I thought, but this is the kind nuance I need. Got a page number?

PHB 290 or RC 243:

quote:

Grab: Standard Action

Target: You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or
one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don't count extra reach
from a weapon).

Strength Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Reflex. Do not add any weapon modifiers. You must have at least one hand free to make a grab attempt.
Hit: The enemy is immobilized until it escapes or you end the grab. Your enemy can attempt to escape on its turn.

Sustaining a Grab: You sustain a grab as a minor action. You can end a grab as a free action.

Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you're grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you're grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends.

Other powers (like Grappling Strike) do not have such a target restriction.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 00:13

Gharbad the Weak: Feb 23, 2008; This too good for you.

Man, I really like mechanical language.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 00:25

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

You guys are the best. Thanks!

I knew I was right.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 01:04

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

Kai Tave posted:

Like I kiiiiiinda get this sentiment but my own personal opinion is that 4E didn't really need simplified classes. It wasn't an onerous, exhausting challenge to play a vanilla sword-and-shield fighter and Just Hit Stuff, you didn't need a simplified subclass for the hypothetical player who seemingly can't handle the rigorous complexities of Marking like someone in one of those informercials who can't pour milk into a glass without setting their kitchen on fire. Or hell, a vanilla Rogue with a dagger, you get Combat Advantage and you do BIG MONEY DAMAGE, rinse repeat. The Wizard might have been a scooch more involved with things like copious forced movement and swappable Dailies but, I mean, Warlocks were there. Sorcerers too.

I've a player in one group who when you asked him what he wanted to play then about half the time he'd choose a mage in any edition. Thing is he really isn't very good at D&D wizards because he's not that good at keeping track of options. On the other hand he's had the most fun involving the actual mechanics he's ever had in D&D when playing an Elementalist; most of what he wants to do in combat is burninate, and the rest of the wizard class has been the crap he puts up with to do that. I've also seen another player utterly transform in terms of both effectiveness and enjoyment when we switched his PHB ranger for a scout. (It may not be a coincidence that both players had been playing D&D since the 1970s)

# ? Aug 2, 2018 01:43

Dick Burglar: Mar 6, 2006

Playing the game since the 70s, never actually bothered to learn half of the rules for it. Sounds exactly like your average D&D grognard.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 02:30

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

I could see the grab discussion going both ways. If I were you I'd ask the DM to let you grab without the restriction if that's your whole build, but if he says no I can see how that's justified too.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 02:47

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

starkebn posted:

I could see the grab discussion going both ways. If I were you I'd ask the DM to let you grab without the restriction if that's your whole build, but if he says no I can see how that's justified too.

RAW applying the Grabbed status doesn't care about size and it's very explicitly the intent of the Brawler. If the GM says no he's being a dick for no reason.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 02:49

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Kai Tave posted:

RAW applying the Grabbed status doesn't care about size and it's very explicitly the intent of the Brawler. If the GM says no he's being a dick for no reason.

quote:

Bash and Pinion

You slam your weapon through your foe's defenses, creating an opening. You then step in and trap your enemy.

Encounter Martial, Weapon

Standard Action Melee weapon

Requirement: You must have a hand free.

Target: One creature

Attack: Strength vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square to a square adjacent to you. You grab the target, and until the grab ends, it takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to your Dexterity modifier. The grab ends automatically at the end of your next turn.

Published in Martial Power 2, page(s) 8.

So what does it mean to grab something?

this is the description for grab:

quote:

Grab
By using the grab power, any creature can try to seize a target bodily and keep it from moving. Although class powers and monster powers are usually more effective than grab at locking a target down, the advantage of grab is that anyone can use it, regardless of class.

GRAB: STANDARD ACTION

Target: You can attempt to grab a creature that is smaller than you, the same size category as you, or one category larger than you. The creature must be within your melee reach (don't count extra reach from a weapon).

Strength Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Reflex. Do not add any weapon modifiers. You must have at least one hand free to make a grab attempt.

Hit: The enemy is immobilized until it escapes or you end the grab. Your enemy can attempt to escape on its turn.

Sustaining a Grab: You sustain a grab as a minor action. You can end a grab as a free action.

Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you're grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you're grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends.

Published in Player's Handbook, page(s) 290, Player's Handbook 3, page(s) 220, Rules Compendium, page(s) 243.

The first sentence says grab is the same for every class, but some powers make it extra hard to escape your grab, like the penalty to Dex in Bash and Pinion.

It's kind of unclear to me whether the target for the power should always override the target for the grab condition which is why I say it could go either way in my opinion.

e: rule of cool says it shouldn't matter, and that's probably more fun.

starkebn fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Aug 2, 2018

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:11

Auralsaurus Flex: Aug 3, 2012

That's not the right description; the grab power (RC 243) is not the grabbed condition (RC 231).

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:32

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Auralsaurus Flex posted:

That's not the right description; the grab power (RC 243) is not the grabbed condition (RC 231).

exactly, which power says your target is automatically grabbed? not that you grab it?

there are a few, but not the brawling fighter ones I can see

starkebn fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Aug 2, 2018

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:33

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Specific overrides general and always has, and if the GM needs to see it in writing it's on page 29 of the Rules Compendium. Bash and Pinion is very clear that on a hit you grab the target, period. 4E doesn't gently caress around with naturalistic language, you do what it says on the power. And since specific overrides general, a halfling brawler can use Bash and Pinion to grab a Ginormous Elder Dragon.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:40

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

I think in this case it could be more clear, there are powers that say your target is grabbed, but the fighter powers say you grab. Just saying, because someone was just saying how much they love the clear writing.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:44

Generic Octopus: Mar 27, 2010

starkebn posted:

exactly, which power says your target is automatically grabbed? not that you grab it?

there are a few, but not the brawling fighter ones I can see

Please read the grabbed condition:

quote:

The creature is immobilized.
✦ Maintaining this condition on the creature occupies whatever appendage, object, or effect the grabber used to initiate the grab.
✦ This condition ends immediately on the creature if the grabber is subjected to an effect that prevents it from taking actions, or if the creature ends up outside the range of the grabbing power or effect.

Within it's own text, "grab" is synonymous with "grabbed." The "Grab" power is a class agnostic way for any creature/class to "grab" a target. Further, the condition also makes it clear that there are multiple powers/effects that inflict this condition. You've made a distinction between "you grab the target" and "you're target is grabbed," which the game itself does not make. It'd be a little clearer if the generic grab power was "Grapple" or something, but denying grabs from other powers/effects on the basis of the text in the Grab power is incorrect.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 03:56

Auralsaurus Flex: Aug 3, 2012

In addition to Generic Octopus's post, your quoted text for the grab power is pre-errata.

Rules Compendium, pg. 243 posted:

Grab
At-Will
Standard Action � � � Melee touch
Requirement: You must have a hand free.
Target: One creature no more than one size category larger than you.
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: You grab the target until the end of your next turn. You can end the grab as a free action.
Sustain Minor: The grab persists until the end of your next turn.

(underlined emphasis mine)

Unless you're intently keen on infinite recursion, it is obvious that "grabbing a target" means imposing the grabbed condition upon that target. Is it unfortunate that two different mechanics share the same term, but both are the most aptly named when considered in a vacuum. The designers must have come to the conclusion that, since they are different types of mechanics � namely a general condition and a specific power � any ambiguity stemming from their shared name was outweighed by the intuitiveness of that chosen name.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 04:02

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Generic Octopus posted:

Please read the grabbed condition:

Within it's own text, "grab" is synonymous with "grabbed." The "Grab" power is a class agnostic way for any creature/class to "grab" a target. Further, the condition also makes it clear that there are multiple powers/effects that inflict this condition. You've made a distinction between "you grab the target" and "you're target is grabbed," which the game itself does not make. It'd be a little clearer if the generic grab power was "Grapple" or something, but denying grabs from other powers/effects on the basis of the text in the Grab power is incorrect.

Okay, but the following is more clear if clarity is what we want. I agree the powers should let you grab things, but I can see why some people think grabbing a gigantic dragon by the tail might not immobilize it.

quote:

Garrote Strangle

You wait for the perfect moment when your foe is within reach, then strangle it with your garrote.

At-Will Martial, Weapon

Standard Action Melee weapon

Requirement: You must use this power with a garrote.

Effect: You shift up to 2 squares before the attack.

Target: One creature you are hidden from

Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is grabbed until the end of your next turn. While the grab persists, the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against you and cannot speak, and you cannot make other attacks.

Level 21: 4[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.

Sustain Standard: The grab persists, and the target takes 2[W] + your Dexterity modifier damage.

Level 21: 4[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.

Published in Heroes of Shadow, page(s) 20.

quote:

Hidden Stab

With a quick grab from behind, you cause your enemy to lower its defenses, allowing you to land a deadly blow even as they struggle to break free.

At-Will Martial, Weapon

Standard Action Melee 1

Requirement: You must have a hand free and use this power with a light blade.

Target: One creature

Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] damage, and the target is grabbed until the end of your next turn. While the grab persists, the target grants combat advantage, and it takes a -2 penalty to its first escape attempt. If you make a melee weapon attack against the target before the grab ends and your assassin's strike is not expended, you can use that power against the target even if the attack misses.

Level 21: 2[W] damage.

Sustain Minor: The grab persists until the end of your next turn.

Published in Heroes of Shadow, page(s) 25.

quote:

Net Snare

You catch an enemy in your net and maneuver it into position.

At-Will Weapon

Standard Action Melee or Ranged weapon

Requirement: You must be wielding a net and use it for this attack.

Target: One creature

Attack: Your highest ability vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] damage, and the target is grabbed. The grab automatically ends at the start of your next turn. If you used this power as a melee attack, you slide the target 1 square. If you used this power as a ranged attack, you pull the target 1 square.

Level 21: 2[W] damage.

Published in Dragon Magazine 386, page(s) 9.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 04:05

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

I like a good rules lawyering, but are you actually arguing active vs passive voice?

Pro tip : I have 40 years of formal semantics proofs showing those mean the same loving thing. God drat.

It has been rigorously proven, like, a lot, that �John grabbed the box� and �The box was grabbed by John� mean the exact same thing and you can not find a contrastive situation.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 04:30

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

I'm just saying when it says "you grab the target" could, in some people's mind mean "look at the grab description" which has a rider saying you can't grab a target that is more than one size bigger than you.

and, "you grab the target" is not absolutely, undeniably clearly, exactly the same as "john grabbed the target" or "the target was grabbed". If the language was as clear as people crow about, it would be undeniably clear to me too.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 04:46

Spiteski: Aug 27, 2013

starkebn posted:

I'm just saying when it says "you grab the target" could, in some people's mind mean "look at the grab description" which has a rider saying you can't grab a target that is more than one size bigger than you.

and, "you grab the target" is not absolutely, undeniably clearly, exactly the same as "john grabbed the target" or "the target was grabbed". If the language was as clear as people crow about, it would be undeniably clear to me too.

I'd only consider this to be the case if the power said "you perform the Grab Action as part of this attack".
It seems pretty clearly that it simply applies the same [/i]condition[/i] as the Grab Action, with it's own requirements and process.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 04:55

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

You're either arguing with the actual technical terms as stated by the designer, which, hey welcome to 4th edition we don't do natural language anymore, and therefore you're trivially wrong.

Or, you bizarrely assume this is a natural language argument and then you are somehow even more wrong. There are literally decades of mathematical proofs showing that active and passive voice descriptions have the same truth conditions ; it's an entirely fruitless argument. Very smart people have been trying for a long time to give a contrasting example and have always failed. There are literally dozens of PhD's on this topic. Please, give me an actual truth conditional entailment that is different between the statements I gave. I dare you.

You cement this by somehow bringing up a frankly surreal argument based around pronouns. The only difference between "I kissed Mary" and "John kissed Mary" is who is doing the kissing action : nothing about the meaning of the verb "to kiss" changes. This is just as obvious in your weird desire to show a difference between various inflectional morphology that also doesn't change the root meaning ; this is like arguing that pluralizing "dog" somehow means I'm not talking about domesticated canines. It's loving facile.

You're the worst kind of pedant. A bad and poorly informed one.

:linguistmicdrop:

At least try next time. Jesus.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:01

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Spiteski posted:

I'd only consider this to be the case if the power said "you perform the Grab Action as part of this attack".
It seems pretty clearly that it simply applies the same [/i]condition[/i] as the Grab Action, with it's own requirements and process.

that's certainly one interpretation, one of the valid one's in my opinion

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:02

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Xiahou Dun posted:

You're either arguing with the actual technical terms as stated by the designer, which, hey welcome to 4th edition we don't do natural language anymore, and therefore you're trivially wrong.

Or, you bizarrely assume this is a natural language argument and then you are somehow even more wrong. There are literally decades of mathematical proofs showing that active and passive voice descriptions have the same truth conditions ; it's an entirely fruitless argument. Very smart people have been trying for a long time to give a contrasting example and have always failed. There are literally dozens of PhD's on this topic. Please, give me an actual truth conditional entailment that is different between the statements I gave. I dare you.

You cement this by somehow bringing up a frankly surreal argument based around pronouns. The only difference between "I kissed Mary" and "John kissed Mary" is who is doing the kissing action : nothing about the meaning of the verb "to kiss" changes. This is just as obvious in your weird desire to show a difference between various inflectional morphology that also doesn't change the root meaning ; this is like arguing that pluralizing "dog" somehow means I'm not talking about domesticated canines. It's loving facile.

You're the worst kind of pedant. A bad and poorly informed one.

:linguistmicdrop:

At least try next time. Jesus.

pretty quick to get to personal attacks when we're just discussing something, well done

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:04

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

Yeah that great ice burn where I mock your knowledge of formal semantics, as we all learned in school. Classic.

Totally you not talking out of your rear end.

I hate people who do bullshit �natural language� fuckery that is patently false if you know how natural language functions.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:07

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

To put it another way, nobody in this thread finds the matter unclear except for you and this dude's GM who, by the sound of it, is basically only half paying attention to how the game works anyway.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:08

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

well, at least the OP can approach his DM having seen both sides of the discussion.

sorry I'm now a loving apostate for saying I see how someone could come to a conclusion, lol

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:11

Xiahou Dun: Jul 16, 2009; We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.

Yes. Thank you. Sorry. I do language stuff for a living and had a long day of dealing with similar poo poo so I�m kind of on a hair trigger.

Thanks everyone! Talked to the DM and everything is good now.

Edit : you got an actual rebuttal or are you just gonna poo poo post like an idiot?

Double edit : I�m the one who asked the question! you poo poo bird.

Xiahou Dun fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Aug 2, 2018

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:12

starkebn: May 18, 2004; "Oooh, got a little too serious. You okay there, little buddy?"

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yes. Thank you. Sorry. I do language stuff for a living and had a long day of dealing with similar poo poo so I’m kind of on a hair trigger.

Thanks everyone! Talked to the DM and everything is good now.

Edit : you got an actual rebuttal or are you just gonna poo poo post like an idiot?

Double edit : I’m the one who asked the question! you poo poo bird.

still not sure what I did for you to keep going at me this way.

Last I'll post about it.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:16

Caphi: Jan 6, 2012; INCREDIBLE

It's me, the lurker who is sincerely interested in logical analysis of naturalistic rules language.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 05:38

TheDemon: Dec 11, 2006; _{...on the plus side I'm feeling much more angry now than I expected so this totally helps me get in character.}

My Lovely Horse posted:

I had a wizard player who did "Thunderwave every turn" and over the levels managed to make Thunderwave into something pretty scary and decently multipurpose, but it still meant a ton of powers were going to waste and I'd have loved to give her a variant class that actually supported "Thunderwave every turn."

I had a glaive wielding thunderwave wizard and it was great fun. I specced into zones also though to support it, so it wasn't literally thunderwave every round.

The GM had a fight on a 2 square ledge over a deathpit once and we basically stood up top and shoved guys into the pit as they came back up until they died.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 06:35

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

I don't think I've ever successfully shoved anyone over a ledge in all the years I've played 4E, they always make their saving throw to keep from going over.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 06:37

gourdcaptain: Nov 16, 2012

Kai Tave posted:

I don't think I've ever successfully shoved anyone over a ledge in all the years I've played 4E, they always make their saving throw to keep from going over.

I get why that rule's there, but it is incredibly frustrating to have a neat environmental effect you can shove an enemy into have a 55%+ chance of not working even after hitting. I really prefer Strike's version of that rule where to get a save against forced movement into hazardous terrain, you have to willingly fall prone to attempt it so at least something happens.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 15:41

Gharbad the Weak: Feb 23, 2008; This too good for you.

I ended a fight in one move with a storm sorcerer by shoving the entire enemy group off a boat, it was neat

# ? Aug 2, 2018 15:44

Successful Businessmanga: Mar 28, 2010

gourdcaptain posted:

I get why that rule's there, but it is incredibly frustrating to have a neat environmental effect you can shove an enemy into have a 55%+ chance of not working even after hitting. I really prefer Strike's version of that rule where to get a save against forced movement into hazardous terrain, you have to willingly fall prone to attempt it so at least something happens.

Success on the save to resist being thrown off a cliff, or into whatever other flavor of permanent hazardous terrain, already leaves you prone. So at least something is happening either way :v:

Rules Compendium 212 posted:

Catching Oneself: If a target is forced over a precipice or into hindering terrain, such as lava or a pit, the target can immediately make a saving throw to avoid going over the edge or entering that terrain. If the creature saves, it falls prone in the last square it occupied before it would have fallen or entered the terrain. Otherwise, it falls over the edge or enters the terrain. Once the saving throw is resolved, the forced movement ends.

Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 2, 2018

# ? Aug 2, 2018 16:09

Spiteski: Aug 27, 2013

Does teleport overrule that saving throw? I always ruled it does because it doesn't make sense but I was wondering if that's accounted for in the rules.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 22:04

Successful Businessmanga: Mar 28, 2010

Yep! Teleporting isn't considered a type of forced movement apparently. Pull, Push, and Slide are all that matter.

211 posted:

Forced Movement
Certain powers and effects allow a creature to move a target forcibly, whether the target is willing or unwilling. (Other effects, such as traps or zones, can also force targets to move.) The three kinds of forced movement are pull, push, and slide. Teleporting a creature does not count as forced movement for the purpose of these rules.

e: I lied. Teleport has its own section and they get to make the save to negate the teleport, without risk of proning. Bleh.

Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Aug 2, 2018

# ? Aug 2, 2018 22:42

Free Triangle: Jan 2, 2008; "This is no ordinary poster boy!
No ordinary poster!"

Can someone give me some advice on shielding swordmages? Their mark mechanic looks good but almost all their powers look awful compared to fighters.

# ? Aug 2, 2018 23:47

BattleCake: Mar 12, 2012

Aside from the PHB1, and the 2 Adventurer's Vaults, does anybody know which other official books have large amounts of Magic Items? Or if anyone knows about like an online list of decent homebrew magic items or something, that would be helpful too.

# ? Aug 3, 2018 00:49

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:39

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

BattleCake posted:

Aside from the PHB1, and the 2 Adventurer's Vaults, does anybody know which other official books have large amounts of Magic Items? Or if anyone knows about like an online list of decent homebrew magic items or something, that would be helpful too.

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Macguffinarium or whatever it's called has some, though I can't remember if they're any good or not.

# ? Aug 3, 2018 00:55

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