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fishmech posted:So you think the solution is indeed to half rear end puree dog pancreas at home or what? Literally anything else > Dog Puree > Dead people E:  I'm absolutely not posting a relevant dog image for 'dog puree' so dog doctor will have to do. Harik fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 22:49
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Harik posted:No, it's to hang all pharma execs for crimes against humanity and nationalize their companies. Since that's not on the table, and there's zero chance of the government taking any action in the next 3-4 years, the question is how to keep people alive until then. Since you appear to not get it, grinding up dogs at home to meet your insulin needs is very expensive and makes no sense as the "cheap" alternative. It's like saying the interim solution to homelessness is for people to just make shanties out of all their spare gold bars.
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Aug 3, 2018 22:54
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Harik posted:Distracting myself from the fact my dad just had his third stroke and is going to have to go on assisted living for the rest of his natural life, which of course isn't going to be covered fully by medicare or his insurance from IBM. Insomuch as he can still communicate, he's made it very clear that he's not ok with that. The things he endorses, like the 4 thieves vinegar collective, are dangerous, self righteous and deeply misinformed. They do not save lives, they jeopardize them. There are better, non-tech solutions to inequality in American healthcare and they are founded through political and economic action. Restating what I've said here: Kommienzuspadt posted:This is why I bristle at tech solutions to problems that are inherently social in nature. The 4 Vinegars idiots assume that because they have knowledge in some allied fields (nuclear physics, I guess) that they can just DIY medicinal chemistry safely. Their goal of improving the health of US citizens is clearly secondary to their own egotistical self-image of tech wizards swooping in to "save people" from a cartoonishly simple view of American healthcare. Also, my sympathies for your father. What you're going through sucks and isn't right. Kommienzuspadt fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 22:55
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Harik posted:Distracting myself from the fact my dad just had his third stroke and is going to have to go on assisted living for the rest of his natural life, which of course isn't going to be covered fully by medicare or his insurance from IBM. Insomuch as he can still communicate, he's made it very clear that he's not ok with that. nothing is fine AND oocc is an idiot. they're not two exclusive options. also sorry about your dad.
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Aug 3, 2018 22:55
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fishmech posted:So you think the solution is indeed to half rear end puree dog pancreas at home or what? The solution to back room abortions was to legalize abortions. If people can't get medical care legitimately they are going to try to get it illegitimately. Like for something like illegal abortions it's easy to make a rosier picture because the people providing them were on the right side of history, but it was totally unregulated and a lot of hosed up stuff happened. Until the very last second people are denied real medical care people are going to do dark and bad things to get whatever care they can. I mean, there is times in US history whole minority populations never got to see a real medically trained doctor and had to go to a local guy working as a doctor with little or no real formal training. It's hard to look back at that period of history and point at the doctor guy and say "yup, it's him, he's the primary villain in this"
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Aug 3, 2018 23:03
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Harik posted:Distracting myself from the fact my dad just had his third stroke and is going to have to go on assisted living for the rest of his natural life, which of course isn't going to be covered fully by medicare or his insurance from IBM. Insomuch as he can still communicate, he's made it very clear that he's not ok with that.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The solution to back room abortions was to legalize abortions. If people can't get medical care legitimately they are going to try to get it illegitimately. Like for something like illegal abortions it's easy to make a rosier picture because the people providing them were on the right side of history, but it was totally unregulated and a lot of hosed up stuff happened. Too bad there are NO EXAMPLES OF NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS THAT WORK. None whatsoever.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:07
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Tech nightmare and back alley insulin thread.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:10
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The solution to back room abortions was to legalize abortions. If people can't get medical care legitimately they are going to try to get it illegitimately. Like for something like illegal abortions it's easy to make a rosier picture because the people providing them were on the right side of history, but it was totally unregulated and a lot of hosed up stuff happened. no, plenty of illegal abortions were (and are) performed by actual medical professionals. desperate women puncturing their wombs with wire is a shocking outcome but not exactly a common one on the other side of your bad analogy, insulin is not illegal, it is just artificially expensive to obtain e: have you fully moved your goalposts from "if bathtub insulin saves just one life, it is worth it despite prematurely ending others" to "yes this is a bad idea but its the principle of the thing" Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 23:11
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Kommienzuspadt posted:The things he endorses, like the 4 thieves vinegar collective, are dangerous, self righteous and deeply misinformed. They do not save lives, they jeopardize them. There are better, non-tech solutions to inequality in American healthcare and they are founded through political and economic action. Restating what I've said here: There's zero chance of political or economic action taking effect in time to save people who are dying right now. Being insured didn't help this grandmother when she couldn't afford medication for two days and she had a heart attack that killed her, dumping her grandchildren into foster care. Again - assuming a groundswell of public support, day zero for opening the rolodexes and contacting industry lobby groups is January 2021. That is, to be clear, 901 days that people will be short-dosing, delaying medications to purchase food, and soaring pharma stock prices. When the choice of 'FDA regulated medicine' is off the table, dangerous > dead. And no, it's not a solution. It's horrific. I don't know how to express how horrific it is other than referring to unregulated medications as 'dog puree', hyperbole that everyone but Fishmech understood. It's a great metaphor for exactly how hosed everything is that people even consider the cost/benefit of extracting insulin from dogs to save lives. So no, I'm not going to condemn people for setting up amateur chemlabs and trying to synthesize well-known formulas. I'm going to condemn the fuckers that are actually responsible for this mess. The only moral question is: will this prevent more death than doing nothing? So yes, even if 50% of the people die due to bad batches or lack of complete sterilization it's still a moral imperative to support them, because that's still 50% of the people they tried to save lived when our system condemned them to death. Can you say with certainty that 100% of every person who turns to four thieves for help will die?
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Aug 3, 2018 23:17
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luxury handset posted:
I have been saying the exact same thing from the start, the first post I made about this was: It seems weird and stupid to be angry at this guy. Like pre-roe vs wade tons of people died in bad botched street abortions, but how much can you actually blame the amatures providing those abortions? If you deny people medical care they are going to have to get it somewhere and that somewhere is going to be totally unqualified people with no resources doing what they can with what they have poorly. A guy working to get medicine formulas simplified to the point recreational drug dealers can mix up batches of them is nightmarish and horrifying and is stupid and dangerous a billion different ways, but it's what happens if the US refuses to allow whole sections of the population access to real medicine they need to live. Raise the price of insulin enough and you'll start getting tutorials online on how to make it from stuff you buy at a butcher shop, same as they made it in 1910. People will die from it going wrong. But the fault seems 100% on the decision to deny people medicine they need to live, not on the people trying to get homebrew substitutes they literally need to stay alive.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:18
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Harik posted:It's a great metaphor for exactly how hosed everything is that people even consider the cost/benefit of extracting insulin from dogs to save lives. nobody has actually done this except an example that oocc dug up somewhere of people doing this during the second world war fyi Owlofcreamcheese posted:I have been saying the exact same thing from the start, the first post I made about this was: ah so you are consistently making the same argument which has gotten you probated twice itt now. cool
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Aug 3, 2018 23:21
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An honestly better solution is to smuggle in drugs from a civilized nation and distribute them at-cost. It's just as blatantly illegal, and you're going to have the same concerns with quality control because who knows if they were diluted or counterfeit along the way, but you theoretically have a government-regulated producer at the source instead of a meth dealer moonlighting as a pharmacist.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:25
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The solution to back room abortions was to legalize abortions. If people can't get medical care legitimately they are going to try to get it illegitimately. Like for something like illegal abortions it's easy to make a rosier picture because the people providing them were on the right side of history, but it was totally unregulated and a lot of hosed up stuff happened. So you really think homemade insulin that costs more than expensive legit insulin has anything to do with abortion? Because that's weird, since if you have the money to successfully make insulin in big enough amounts to live, you can just buy the insulin already.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:29
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Gosh Harik it's like you blew in with the breeze on the last page, read two posts that were people telling OOCC he's a loving idiot, and decided that's what all the discussion had been until that point. You are literally bringing up points now and saying WELL WHAT ABOUT THIS when those exact points were made and discussed within the last ten to twenty pages. Feels strange to post this at an 01 but here goes: Lurk more
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Aug 3, 2018 23:31
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This is the best thread. 
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Aug 3, 2018 23:32
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i kinda like harik slowly realizing oocc's argument is bad and drifting to the thread consensus as this argument enters its third day
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Aug 3, 2018 23:33
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Realistically back alley insulin would be a homebrew setup stocked with bacterial cultures stolen from a lab by an inside man Keeping those cultures going would probably require a good deal of equipment and expertise but would be a lot cheaper and easier to hide than a massive dog-grinding operation
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Aug 3, 2018 23:34
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fishmech posted:So you really think homemade insulin that costs more than expensive legit insulin has anything to do with abortion? Because that's weird, since if you have the money to successfully make insulin in big enough amounts to live, you can just buy the insulin already. Give it a few years.  (also after the first few doses the world war II woman used water buffalo and man I should have posted it like that more so you could be posting about the irrationally high price of water buffaloes)
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Aug 3, 2018 23:39
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really didn't foresee me thinking about dog corpse logistics today
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Aug 3, 2018 23:42
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Tarezax posted:Keeping those cultures going would probably require a good deal of equipment and expertise but would be a lot cheaper and easier to hide than a massive dog-grinding operation [in reddit voice] "its called PETA"
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Aug 3, 2018 23:46
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Give it a few years. Man you really don't get that your blind defense of expensive pseudo medical practices will never benefit you.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:46
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Harik posted:
This is a ridiculous strawman argument. Can you say with certainty that 100% of the people who would try to make these drugs at home will die without the 4 thieves kit? Let's review the drugs they claim to be able to make to reveal how ridiculous your hysteria is: 1. Daraprim, a niche antihelminthic medication for patients with HIV/AIDS who get opportunistic infections. Very small burden of disease nationwide. Obvious publicity stunt. 2. Naloxone, AKA Narcan, which is widely issued to LE, EMS, Fire, and other first responders who will give it to you whether or not you have insurance, believe it or not. Alternatively you can buy it yourself for $45. Doing the home-brew synthesis that the 4 thieves kit offers requires you to illegally obtain oxymorphone as precursor, btw. 3. Cabotegravir; experimental integrase inhibitor not yet approved by the FDA to treat any disease. They are proudly putting it in the illegal heroin supply, just a reminder! If you take this drug on purpose outside of a clinical trial, you're an idiot. 4&5. Mifepristone and mifeprostol, both of which are GYN drugs that can be used to terminate an early pregnancy or can be used to induce labor/as a treatment for post-partum uterine atony (mifeprostol). These drugs absolutely should not be used without the supervision of a physician and are not particularly expensive to begin with. In sum, their $400 kit solves no medical problems and exposes patients to completely unnecessary risk, and in several cases is more expensive and resource intensive to synthesize the drugs than it is to just buy them. It's clearly a stunt that is more about Laufer's ego than it is about helping patients.
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Aug 3, 2018 23:47
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In another tech nightmare, SV startup making “artificially intelligent algorithms” is getting sued for their aggressively sexual workplace that included such treats as a masturbation room and servers named “Deep Head” https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1025424844865843205 Shocked that they treated their female employees badly, just shocked
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Aug 4, 2018 00:30
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Shirec posted:In another tech nightmare, SV startup making “artificially intelligent algorithms” is getting sued for their aggressively sexual workplace that included such treats as a masturbation room and servers named “Deep Head” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKbq9uuBrJY
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Aug 4, 2018 01:06
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Kommienzuspadt posted:This is a ridiculous strawman argument. Can you say with certainty that 100% of the people who would try to make these drugs at home will die without the 4 thieves kit? Let's review the drugs they claim to be able to make to reveal how ridiculous your hysteria is: This: Kommienzuspadt posted:He's making drugs of unknown and essentially unknowable (without advanced facilities/technologies) yield, purity, potency. There is a reason the FDA has not only strict rules to proving the efficacy of a drug they approve for sale, but also for the consistency and purity of the compounds being sold after the drug is approved. Not only that, but even if the tech itself works, you can't guarantee the end-user doing this kitchen table chemistry is going to get the same yields and purity as the people developing the kits themselves. "It's weird and stupid to be angry at this guy". Which argument do you think this applies to? Because it's pretty bizarre to refuse to condemn a publicity stunt, but more understandable to refuse to condemn home synthesis in general. The very first post called it "nightmarish and horrifying and stupid and dangerous" and then 10 pages of enraged goons mashing keys because apparently he supports it? quote:
e: removing pointlessly inflammatory quip. Harik fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 01:16
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JawnV6 posted:I know this isn't the most germane bit and you've got a defensive 'like' in there but it isn't "the colleges," whichever nefarious institutions of higher learning that may impugn, that are deciding the training levels. You could probably pivot this rant to be about the AMA. Well i’m mainly talking about the australian system but i assume that in the US you still have the college of physicians and such gating the final level of qualification until you become a fellow? Also in the australian system you close integration between colleges and universities as to the contents of the courses which are of course run and designed by fellows.
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Aug 4, 2018 01:35
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Realtalk: It would take about 3-4 years of dedicated heart surgery training / apprenticeship before that person could do open heart surgery solo. Hint: step one of open heat surgery is harvest a vein or two from the calf
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Aug 4, 2018 01:47
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It should actually be possible to train an AI to perform open heart surgery with one of the Da Vinci machines. In order to train the AI you would need to put the operating table inside a big MRI machine that constantly takes snapshots of the entire area around the heart, and the heart surgeon only uses the Da Vinci machine to perform the surgery. Then to make things easier on the AI you would make some software to automatically categorize various anatomical parts, like different veins. Simulated surgeries can be created to vastly increase the training pool, and eventually the AI would be able to successfully perform a surgery without doing bad things like cutting the wrong nerve. It can be exhaustively tested in a simulated digital environment before testing it on a fake human body or corpse. Obviously the Da Vinci machine would need to have no ferromagnetic parts in order to work inside an MRI.
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Aug 4, 2018 02:25
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Again, step one is find a vein from the leg and cut it out. There’s a reason only 1st year fellows do this work.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:18
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qkkl posted:It should actually be possible to train an AI to perform open heart surgery with one of the Da Vinci machines. Sounds awesome. Let's use all the resources necessary for that to make sure people have insulin.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:34
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Lote posted:Again, step one is find a vein from the leg and cut it out. There’s a reason only 1st year fellows do this work. Ok, make the MRI bigger and include training data for removing the leg vein. Or have someone find the vein and harvest it first, which seems like something a person with maybe one year of training can do reliably, probably less. You just shine a fancy light on the leg that reveals the veins, cut open the skin, then pinch off the part you want to harvest, cut the ends and boom, vein.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:42
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MRIs tend to be quite slow, which is bad when duration of surgery has significant impact on outcomes. e: qkkl posted:Ok, make the MRI bigger and include training data for removing the leg vein. Or have someone find the vein and harvest it first, which seems like something a person with maybe one year of training can do reliably, probably less. You just shine a fancy light on the leg that reveals the veins, cut open the skin, then pinch off the part you want to harvest, cut the ends and boom, vein. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 03:54
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qkkl posted:You just shine a fancy light on the leg that reveals the veins, cut open the skin, then pinch off the part you want to harvest, cut the ends and boom, vein. I don’t think I’d trust someone to harvest my vein if this was how they talked about it.
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Aug 4, 2018 03:59
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qkkl posted:It should actually be possible to train an AI to perform open heart surgery with one of the Da Vinci machines. Please do even the barest hint of research on this sort of thing before proposing it.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:02
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Ravenfood posted:MRIs tend to be quite slow, which is bad when duration of surgery has significant impact on outcomes. Real-time MRIs do exist, as can be seen here: http://www.biomednmr.mpg.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=39
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Aug 4, 2018 04:15
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I enjoy this thread because there are a bunch of posters with obvious experience in a variety of specialty technical fields. As someone who was on a hard/science mathematics track but ended up in architecture, it’s a fun window into interesting fields. The tech thread covers a wide enough range that we get a lot of other non-software folks as well, which makes for good reading. That said: what is up with the higher-than-average throughput of uninformed posters in this thread lately? Is some other subforum leaking? Harik posted:Distracting myself from the fact my dad just had his third stroke and is going to have to go on assisted living for the rest of his natural life, which of course isn't going to be covered fully by medicare or his insurance from IBM. Insomuch as he can still communicate, he's made it very clear that he's not ok with that. I’m sorry that you’re going though difficult times but want to point out that you are making a lot of assumptions about other people here. Who’s to say that a significant number of posters here aren’t dealing with some sort of trauma here? This a pretty myopic angle to take. Through that lens, I can only imagine that OOCC has an excruciatingly tragic, slow-burn family tragedy going on.
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Aug 4, 2018 04:26
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It is way too over-the-top to be real. A non-ferromagnetic davinci machine inside a MRI tube? Ignoring everything else impossible about it, the shielding for the control electronics would completely gently caress the imaging. I can't imagine the induced currents it'd generate while it's inside you are good for the patient either. E: that's not even the AI portion, just the idea of using a remote-controlled robot to try to do surgery while being MRId. Harik fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 07:47
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Edit; wrong thread
Slutitution fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Aug 4, 2018 |
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Aug 4, 2018 09:40
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axeil posted:edit: there is also a huge dearth of "we repeated the experiment $ACADEMIC did and found the the same/a different result". If people aren't double-checking things in papers you can run into some really bad situations, like what happened in Economics where a simple Excel error was the entire reason people thought austerity worked. It wasn't until people tried to re-create the results that we figured out it was a math error. in that case it's glaringly obvious they went with austerity because they liked it which is why they didn't back down when the error came out per thread topic, the actual problem here is not technical
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