|
Cease to Hope posted:i mean this right here is a pretty good leftist reason to think cozying up to a foreign oligarch is bad The problem is that cozying up to oligarchs is bad in general. Is Trump letting foreign CEOs write his foreign policy really that much worse than Obama letting domestic health insurance CEOs write his insurance regulation bill? Ice Phisherman posted:I have to disagree here. Trump absolutely looks like he's been compromised. I love it when random-rear end idiots psychoanalyze a guy they've never even seen in person, let alone spoken to
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 07:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:30 |
|
|
if you want to make the case that trump is "compromised" maybe do it with all the russian money being dumped into his and his company's real estate. that's like, the only angle that really makes sense to me these days
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 07:51
|
|
|
and as has been mentioned, a lot can be explained by just ideological affinity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 07:53
|
|
|
The Muppets On PCP posted:i'm not sure that it's deliberate so much as it is people are really dumb and genuinely have no idea the ussr dissolved over 25 years ago and russia isn't a communist state Oh, I have little doubt it's just stupidity (or some bizarre idea that even though the USSR doesn't exist anymore that Putin represents some Communist faction, lol), but the point is that it brings to mind the way Russia used to be used during the Cold War as a spooky "Other" country.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 07:54
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The problem is that cozying up to oligarchs is bad in general. Is Trump letting foreign CEOs write his foreign policy really that much worse than Obama letting domestic health insurance CEOs write his insurance regulation bill? yes, it is one of those things is worse than the status quo, and one of them is better than the pre-existing status quo and is a failure in the sense that it isn't a sufficient improvement liberals suck, obama sucks, but it is clearly possible to suck more than that
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 07:58
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Oh, I have little doubt it's just stupidity (or some bizarre idea that even though the USSR doesn't exist anymore that Putin represents some Communist faction, lol), but the point is that it brings to mind the way Russia used to be used during the Cold War as a spooky "Other" country. A lot of people, including self-professed liberals, are finding it very easy to believe that Bernie Sanders, BLM, etc are Russian psyops, because they don't understand where all this anger came from so obviously it must be someone making them do it. And also because it's an extremely useful thought-terminating buzzword. Russia is the Bad Guys, anyone working for them is the Bad Guys that Need To Be Stopped! Hell, there was one black centrist who was literally calling for the arrest of Nina Turner, Keith Ellison and basically every prominent black leftist for being Russian agents.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:02
|
|
|
So, between Russia and Israel, which exerts the greater influence on our current foreign policy? And why is one considered an imminent national security threat by Democrats and the other, if you mention it at all, you don't get to be a Democrat anymore?
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:05
|
|
|
Zas posted:if you want to make the case that trump is "compromised" maybe do it with all the russian money being dumped into his and his company's real estate. that's like, the only angle that really makes sense to me these days That's almost certainly the angle he's been compromised from; it makes the most sense, given the people involved, at least as far as we've seen. And that's still a really bad thing; the fact that our leaders have been in bed with self-interested foreign oligarchs for a very long time, doesn't change the fact that one more set of oligarchs exerting influence is still a bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:09
|
|
|
Majorian posted:That's almost certainly the angle he's been compromised from; it makes the most sense, given the people involved, at least as far as we've seen. And that's still a really bad thing; the fact that our leaders have been in bed with self-interested foreign oligarchs for a very long time, doesn't change the fact that one more set of oligarchs exerting influence is still a bad thing. I think the problem is lots of people assume that the moment Trump is out of office for any reason, and/or the Russian influence is considered fixed, you're immediately going to drop the big 'Mission Accomplished' banner, turn around and go home, and go back to saying anyone trying to bring up economic inequality is just trying to distract from the real issues.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:17
|
|
|
MSDOS KAPITAL posted:So, between Russia and Israel, which exerts the greater influence on our current foreign policy? And why is one considered an imminent national security threat by Democrats and the other, if you mention it at all, you don't get to be a Democrat anymore? pro-israel sentiment can be attributed to a bipartisan and entirely american coalition of conservative christians and american jews (combined with good old-fashioned american pro-segregation sentiment and apartheid apologia), while the russian-american diaspora is not large or particularly politically active and as likely to be "yeah gently caress putin and his cronies" as anyone one group votes, the other doesn't
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:21
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:I think the problem is lots of people assume that the moment Trump is out of office for any reason, and/or the Russian influence is considered fixed, you're immediately going to drop the big 'Mission Accomplished' banner, turn around and go home, and go back to saying anyone trying to bring up economic inequality is just trying to distract from the real issues. I mean, I'm certainly not going to do that...
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 08:32
|
|
|
I don't believe Trump is being blackmailed because that's not how you would ever get Trump to do what you want.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 11:05
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:yes, it is Except Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. let foreign CEOs and heads of state (KSA, Israel, etc.) push their agendas while they were in office? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 13:48
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:yes, it is I dunno, Trump's foreign policy is probably one of the few places where he's not noticeably worse than other presidents (though even his most horrific domestic policies aren't that much worse than his predecessors). I mean, sure, he's giving the military free reign in the Middle East and tearing up the Iran deal, which are definitely worse than before. But on the other hand, the fact that he's even willing to talk about de-escalation with North Korea and Russia is a breakthrough not seen since the 90s, and the fact that liberals fought him so hard on it is downright disgusting. His corrupt ties with Saudi billionaires have done a lot more to gently caress up his foreign policy than his corrupt ties with Russian billionaires.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 14:14
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:also since we're talking 'hostile' powers, is there a list of 'friendly' foriegn powers it IS ok to be influenced by? Like, is Nigel Farrage, citizen of our ally the UK, stumping for trump with BNP support actually ok because we're buds? Everyone is bad unless it's Israel, then they can do as much illegal insane poo poo possible
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 15:33
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:I dunno, Trump's foreign policy is probably one of the few places where he's not noticeably worse than other presidents (though even his most horrific domestic policies aren't that much worse than his predecessors). I mean, sure, he's giving the military free reign in the Middle East and tearing up the Iran deal, which are definitely worse than before. But on the other hand, the fact that he's even willing to talk about de-escalation with North Korea and Russia is a breakthrough not seen since the 90s, and the fact that liberals fought him so hard on it is downright disgusting. His corrupt ties with Saudi billionaires have done a lot more to gently caress up his foreign policy than his corrupt ties with Russian billionaires. don't forget the trade war with everyone as for deescalation with russia, rapprochement with russia was one of obama's foreign policy goals until russia invaded crimea. it wasn't even that long ago
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 15:45
|
|
|
Majorian posted:That's almost certainly the angle he's been compromised from; it makes the most sense, given the people involved, at least as far as we've seen. And that's still a really bad thing; the fact that our leaders have been in bed with self-interested foreign oligarchs for a very long time, doesn't change the fact that one more set of oligarchs exerting influence is still a bad thing. twodot fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Aug 5, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 17:08
|
|
|
twodot posted:This is all true, but it being true makes "Your current leader is in bed with self-interested foreign oligarchs, just as all of your leaders have been for all of living memory" really ineffective rhetoric. Oh. "We do it too!". That's all you needed to say.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 18:47
|
|
|
SpeakSlow posted:Oh. "We do it too!". That's all you needed to say. The point isn't that "it's normal so it's okay", it's that the US government has been eating out of the hand of extremely regressive and generally horrible FOREIGN POWERS for decades. The amount of influence, say, the Saudis hold over your foreign policy is enormous.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2018 21:03
|
|
|
Spatula City posted:I don't believe Trump is being blackmailed because that's not how you would ever get Trump to do what you want. This is my thinking as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 00:35
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:This is my thinking as well. Unless the blackmail is something that really matters to him--like perhaps solid evidence that he's just been bankrolled by loans and has basically zero actual net worth, or that his penis is so small it's inverted into his pubic fat like a button mushroom. He's shameless enough to lie his way out of the piss tape, or even proof that he sodomized a 12 year old Russian prostitute with a hot poker. Not that his supporters would care at this point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 00:49
|
|
|
Nosfereefer posted:The point isn't that "it's normal so it's okay", it's that the US government has been eating out of the hand of extremely regressive and generally horrible FOREIGN POWERS for decades. The amount of influence, say, the Saudis hold over your foreign policy is enormous. Yeah, but the issue here is that this is less about "foreign powers" and more about absurdly rich families wielding huge amounts of control over our government through their wealth. No one wants to talk about that, though, because it leads to a lot of uncomfortable conclusions about the role of wealth in our global society.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
I just don't understand what benefit propagandizing about Russian oligarchs could bring that wouldn't already be included in an attempt to get rid of political corruption in general. Can someone who thinks Russia is worth pushing explain this?
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 04:44
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:Yeah, but the issue here is that this is less about "foreign powers" and more about absurdly rich families wielding huge amounts of control over our government through their wealth. No one wants to talk about that, though, because it leads to a lot of uncomfortable conclusions about the role of wealth in our global society. Speaking of, Citations Needed just had a two-parter specifically about Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation. They're very good, very revealing stuff. Here's a link to the first part: Episode 45: The Not-So-Benevolent Billionaire - Bill Gates and Western Media
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 05:22
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:Thank you for the reminder, I will continue to not listen to that trash Uh, it’s a good podcast.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 08:44
|
|
|
Mornacale posted:I just don't understand what benefit propagandizing about Russian oligarchs could bring that wouldn't already be included in an attempt to get rid of political corruption in general. Can someone who thinks Russia is worth pushing explain this? Russia bad Corruption good
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 08:48
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Uh, it’s a good podcast. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 08:50
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Uh, it’s a good podcast.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 08:54
|
|
|
PSA is a great podcast and there are a lot of edge lords in here if you think it’s not great. Tommy in particular has great context for International events, and both Jon’s are smarter than 99% of the posters in these dead gay forums. While I am no way think that Obama‘s years was perfect, these were clearly hard-working individuals who were true patriots who worked for a man that truly was the best president we’ve had since Carter. They did go soft on Israel though when they were killing kids, so that was bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 09:29
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:PSA is a great podcast and there are a lot of edge lords in here if you think it’s not great. Tommy in particular has great context for International events, and both Jon’s are smarter than 99% of the posters in these dead gay forums. While I am no way think that Obama‘s years was perfect, these were clearly hard-working individuals who were true patriots who worked for a man that truly was the best president we’ve had since Carter. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 09:37
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:best president we’ve had since Carter. What a loving low bar to clear.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 09:41
|
|
|
Substandard posted:Gen X is about 40% in the under 45 category (I've seen the date range for Gen X mostly from 1965-1980 and anyone from 1973/4-1980 is under 45 right now) so they are split into the best views and trash. It's true that there's a massive difference between older Xers and younger Xers. Older Xers that became adults in the 80s are Alex Keatons. Younger Xers that became adults in the 90s are more like Millenials than older Xers. Lycus fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Aug 6, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 09:42
|
|
|
i don't really want to get my news from "true patriots" no offense. its likely to be a bunch of bullshit
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 10:05
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:PSA is a great podcast and there are a lot of edge lords in here if you think it’s not great. Tommy in particular has great context for International events, and both Jon’s are smarter than 99% of the posters in these dead gay forums. While I am no way think that Obama‘s years was perfect, these were clearly hard-working individuals who were true patriots who worked for a man that truly was the best president we’ve had since Carter. You're going to have to link your DailyKos quotes, people might otherwise get the impression that they're looking directly at an irredeemably partisan hack.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 10:37
|
|
|
Here's a PSA for you: kill all patriots.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 10:39
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:What a loving low bar to clear. Carter was terrible
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 11:55
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:PSA is a great podcast and there are a lot of edge lords in here if you think it’s not great. Tommy in particular has great context for International events, and both Jon’s are smarter than 99% of the posters in these dead gay forums. While I am no way think that Obama‘s years was perfect, these were clearly hard-working individuals who were true patriots who worked for a man that truly was the best president we’ve had since Carter. yeah it's great unless you want social or economic justice, then it's Pod Save Centrism
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 11:59
|
|
|
WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Carter was terrible Okay??? I don't see what this has to do with anything in the context of my post, WJ. My point being if you're saying Obama is the best out of a list of Obama, Clinton, Dubya, Bush Sr, and Reagan, that's damning with extremely faint praise.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 12:07
|
|
|
WampaLord posted:Okay??? I don't see what this has to do with anything in the context of my post, WJ. Don’t forget Trump!
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 12:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:30 |
|
|
WampaLord posted:Okay??? I don't see what this has to do with anything in the context of my post, WJ. He's the best president since Lincoln, and that's damning with extremely faint praise
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2018 12:34
|
|