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Are they just telling you to do all this stuff verbally?
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Aug 6, 2018 05:01
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E: ^^^^^ mostly, but there are some emails and texts. Why? He was the one that committed to a last minute demo, he's one of the founders and has apparently fully absorbed the lovely Cool Startup Boss mentality of not taking no for an answer and expecting everyone to give their lives to the job. The demo important for the direction the company is going but it's not a ride or die demo by any means. The demo will work, and it'll go exactly how I said it will (functional but incomplete). I can basically guarantee this result will infuriate my boss and he'll probably lose his poo poo on me. If he does, I'm going to quit. Might have to put myself up in a hotel while waiting for a return flight if that happens. 
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Aug 6, 2018 05:06
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I feel like I'm starting to talk myself into quitting while discussing this with some friends. I have a very serious fear of confrontations and burning bridges, but I know I'm going to quit this company eventually. Even if I manage to convince them that they've been mistreating me and they stop, I already know that the founders are very happy to emotionally manipulate and overwork their employees, so it's a place I won't feel comfortable working. Obviously I know putting in 2 weeks is the standard to be respectful, but if I know this demo is going to go badly and know that I'm going to be reamed for it, should I just quit immediately and not even go to the event? I would feel bad, because I just spent a ton of time and money on equipment in preparation for the event (not to mention plane tickets), but my own well being might need to take priority.
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Aug 6, 2018 05:45
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wait why did you pay for your own plane tickets? i'd reach out to the CEO or COO or lead investor or literally anyone who might be more professional than your boss immediately (like email them right now and phone then as soon as is reasonable in the morning) and explain what went down and how taken advantage you feel. if they don't immediately present some kind of plan to make this right (that hopefully involves a large severance package and assistance finding another role) don't get on the plane
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Aug 6, 2018 06:03
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Sorry, that wasn't clear. They paid for the plane tickets, but I'd have some guilt about the company spending money on this stuff only to have me immediately quit. The plane leaves about 8 hours from this post. And the people applying the pressure and manipulation are the CEO and COO, respectively, they're my bosses and the founders of the company. There is no one else to go to.
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Aug 6, 2018 06:20
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Taffer posted:Sorry, that wasn't clear. They paid for the plane tickets, but I'd have some guilt about the company spending money on this stuff only to have me immediately quit. The plane leaves about 8 hours from this post. Don’t feel guilty, they’re practically making you quit.
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Aug 6, 2018 06:25
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The management sounds incompetent. They don't know how to do anything but crack a whip to make up for their own failures at scheduling and planning work and then punch down to scapegoat people when it doesn't work out. It sounds insane to me that they could be surprised by what's in the demo in spite of you telling them what's in it which is implying they don't even plan to go through it with you before flying out there and that they don't have basic communication skills. Think about what you would do if you if the roles were reversed and how unreasonable they are. Don't feel bad and don't ever do something stupid like taking the plane tickets out of your paycheck.
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Aug 6, 2018 06:36
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Taffer posted:I feel like I'm starting to talk myself into quitting while discussing this with some friends. I have a very serious fear of confrontations and burning bridges, but I know I'm going to quit this company eventually. Even if I manage to convince them that they've been mistreating me and they stop, I already know that the founders are very happy to emotionally manipulate and overwork their employees, so it's a place I won't feel comfortable working. Obviously I know putting in 2 weeks is the standard to be respectful, but if I know this demo is going to go badly and know that I'm going to be reamed for it, should I just quit immediately and not even go to the event? To be honest, it sounds like you need some sleep and general rest before making any decision. Your feeling of responsibility is being exploited, let there be no doubt about that and whether you quit or not, you will always bring this same exploitable attribute with you to a new company where it will be exploited again. Unless of course, you shield that weak spot a bit. You must have seen the documentary "Office Space" in which the lead character is hypnotized in not giving a drat anymore about what people say to him and think about his attitude or general demeanor. As a result, his abusive, cheating girlfriend leaves him, he starts ignoring his boss and is seen as management potential by the consultants hired by upper management. The takeaway is that you should try to care less and to consider your personal well being above anything else. The job market for devs is such that with experience it is easy to land another role, they need you more than you need them. So go to the demo, give the demo and if you are fired even after you gave it all, gently caress that poo poo. Find another job where you can be happy because there is no pleasing abusive assholes. Read up on all the poo poo Shirec went through, don't be like Shirec.
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Aug 6, 2018 06:55
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Thanks for the support everybody  I think I'm going to go for the quit immediately route. It's scorched earth and it is potentially risky as I worry they'd spread bad word about me, but I think it's the right choice for my wellbeing. I don't think a 2 week notice will help anything and it'll require me to endure the event that'll inevitably go badly. I know it'll continue and I don't want to live through that. Keetron posted:To be honest, it sounds like you need some sleep and general rest before making any decision. Unfortunately sleep is not happening anytime soon. Stress has kept me awake all week, and the event will be a clusterfuck of activity, even if it goes WELL. I'm definitely familiar with office space, just watched it recently, and I care a lot about my wellbeing and don't feel like supporting a business that will exploit me.
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Aug 6, 2018 07:00
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There's a chapter in The Clean Coder about 'Saying No'. Not that I loved the book, but I like the message of the chapter, which boils down to: saying no (and the ability to say no) when the objectives set by management are unrealistic is good, professional behaviour. Knowing it's not always realistic to have the option to say no, it's a nice chapter because it can help provide the courage to put your foot down and refuse to do something when you know it's unreasonable. Your boss sounds like a fuckwit, sorry you have to deal with it. [quick edit] I have to say, quitting sounds like a mistake, too. Don't let the pressure of this situation push you into a rash decision. Esposito fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 07:04
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Esposito posted:There's a chapter in The Clean Coder about 'Saying No'. Not that I loved the book, but I like the message of the chapter, which boils down to: saying no (and the ability to say no) when the objectives set by management are unrealistic is good, professional behaviour. Knowing it's not always realistic to have the option to say no, it's a nice chapter because it can help provide the courage to put your foot down and refuse to do something when you know it's unreasonable. Yeah. My issue is that I know quite well when a demand is unreasonable, but I cave pretty easily under pressure. Standing firm on it is something I need to work on a lot. Oddly, while pressure can make me cave to giving a different answer, it has the opposite effect on how much work I put in. When I'm under a lot of pressure I disengage mentally and have an extremely difficult time focusing on the project, it very significantly makes my work slow down. I'm crippled by stress and indecision right now.  E: For what it's worth, I make a strong point to always keep "gently caress you" savings, so I can survive safely for several months without a job if that's necessary. Obviously I don't want to burn through that, but it's there specifically to save my butt in these situations. Taffer fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 07:28
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Esposito posted:Knowing it's not always realistic to have the option to say no For a competent software dev in a western country it sure as hell is.
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Aug 6, 2018 10:29
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Messyass posted:For a competent software dev in a western country it sure as hell is. There are a variety of crises that can make looking for a job on no notice a bad idea, especially in Freedomland where no job = no health insurance (or at the very least a shitload more money and bureaucracy to keep it).
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Aug 6, 2018 11:20
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Messyass posted:For a competent software dev in a western country it sure as hell is. If you've got a reasonable employment history, live in a tech hub or are able to relocate to one, and in the US case can afford to drop your health insurance for a while: sure. It also helps quite a lot to be a white dude. You can be a perfectly competent engineer yet still be in all sorts of circumstances that make those conditions not true. I will say that in Taffer's case it sounds like getting the hell out to preserve sanity is a good idea. There are only two ways that situation will get better: your boss suddenly improves his ability to do his job, or you change to a position with a competent boss. Your boss almost certainly wont improve spontaneously and you are unlikely to make it happen; chances are they will just double down if confronted since that's what people usually do. Your company doesn't sound like it'll make the CEO do less managing. I'd hand in a two week's notice after whatever big event fallout happens were I you, but if they give you poo poo about leaving and you're on an at-will then it's their own drat fault if you just drop them. You kept a reserve for unexpected situations and now you're miserable, stressed out and sure you're better off elsewhere. If you're not using it for this, then for what?
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Aug 6, 2018 11:32
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Xerophyte posted:You kept a reserve for unexpected situations and now you're miserable, stressed out and sure you're better off elsewhere. If you're not using it for this, then for what? Yeah, this. Not even I could tolerate that.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:53
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It's freeing to mentally state that you're quitting, even before you put your notice in. Just always remember that two weeks is a courtesy, not a requirement, and that if they start giving you poo poo after you turn it in, don't say anything, just walk out.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:55
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Esposito posted:There's a chapter in The Clean Coder about 'Saying No'. Not that I loved the book, but I like the message of the chapter, which boils down to: saying no (and the ability to say no) when the objectives set by management are unrealistic is good, professional behaviour. Knowing it's not always realistic to have the option to say no, it's a nice chapter because it can help provide the courage to put your foot down and refuse to do something when you know it's unreasonable. Pretty much all management hates being told no but good management will still want to hear it. As my position has become kind of essential in the company I've become more outspoken and I push back harder against ideas I feel are bad or unrealistic, more so than most other developers in my department. This has lead to senior management inviting me to MORE drat meetings rather than less weirdly enough. This is a relatively new thing though, for years our management had ignored the in-house developers and instead relied on an outsourcing company who agreed to absolutely anything asked. It lead to some terribly broken products and losing some pretty large customers for them to come around. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 14:37
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Xerophyte posted:If you've got a reasonable employment history, live in a tech hub or are able to relocate to one, and in the US case can afford to drop your health insurance for a while: sure. It also helps quite a lot to be a white dude. You can be a perfectly competent engineer yet still be in all sorts of circumstances that make those conditions not true. ime it is also just as easy if you're an asian dude also like 90%, 80% as easy if you're a white or asian woman after that it falls off, sure
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Aug 6, 2018 17:21
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I did it, I went for the scorched earth route of quitting without notice and never getting on the plane. I don't feel good about it, but I feel that it was the only right choice for me under the circumstances. I've never left a job on anything but good terms before, so this is new territory for me. I'm still worried that this move could come back to bite me, but I was pretty much on the verge of a breakdown last night. Going out of town to an event where my showcase would inevitably go poorly due to factors outside of my control, and that that would lead to my bosses reaming me..... was not something I could have handled. Thanks a ton to everybody who gave advice and commiseration last night, it helped me from the edge of panic and to make a decision. Some of you (probably correctly) advised caution and had I been anything besides on the verge of panic I probably would have gone for a much less aggressive route. Taffer fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 17:50
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Taffer posted:I did it, I went for the scorched earth route of quitting without notice and never getting on the plane. I don't feel good about it, but I feel that it was the only right choice for me under the circumstances. I've never left a job on anything but good terms before, so this is new territory for me. I'm still worried that this move could come back to bite me, but I was pretty much on the verge of a breakdown last night. Going out of town to an event where my showcase would inevitably go poorly due to factors outside of my control, and that that would lead to my bosses reaming me..... was not something I could have handled. As someone who once had a job/boss that gave them panic attacks, you 100% absolutely did the right thing!
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Aug 6, 2018 17:58
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Yeah, no point dwelling on it. gently caress them and do what's right for you. Congratulations, enjoy your freedom!
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Aug 6, 2018 18:53
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Taffer posted:I did it, I went for the scorched earth route of quitting without notice and never getting on the plane. I don't feel good about it, but I feel that it was the only right choice for me under the circumstances. I've never left a job on anything but good terms before, so this is new territory for me. I'm still worried that this move could come back to bite me, but I was pretty much on the verge of a breakdown last night. Going out of town to an event where my showcase would inevitably go poorly due to factors outside of my control, and that that would lead to my bosses reaming me..... was not something I could have handled. Good for you! Although I know it will never happen, I hope they learn that they can't treat people like poo poo.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:00
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Thanks guys Over the last couple weeks a friend had recommended that I quit immediately before I get hospitalized due to a panic attack or nervous breakdown. I brushed it off because though he is prone to panic attacks, I had never had anything like that. But over the past week and especially last weekend I felt myself getting really close, that's ultimately what pushed me over the edge to quit on the spot. I was getting messages and calls every few minutes from my bosses demanding updates and status reports and great friendly and supportive lines like "there are no excuses for this", "this has to be completed". I was starting to feel legit panic every time I felt my phone vibrate. I've blocked the numbers of my bosses and disconnected my work email from my phone so that I won't get anything. The only open connection I've left is an email to the only HR person in case I need to deal with closing documents. I offered to do an exit interview (specifically with the bosses NOT present), but I don't know if that will happen. I'm starting to feel a lot better, though it'll probably take days for the stress to properly fade away.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:15
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Good for you. I imagine trying to ride out the situation while in a company-provided hotel room and waiting for a company-provided return flight would have been a nightmare. Good call on blocking them out entirely, too; I wouldn't put it past them to try to take some parting shots at you.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:28
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How did they take your I quit call?
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Aug 6, 2018 19:38
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Taffer posted:Thanks guys Good on you! I hope the conference demo goes up on YouTube and they faceplant somehow.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:44
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2nd Rate Poster posted:How did they take your I quit call? No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:46
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Taffer posted:No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational. You owe them literally nothing. Any company that balks at you leaving an abusive work environment is demonstrating they value their own profit over your humanity and is safe to avoid. Be proud you stood up for yourself (the opposite of a cowardly thing) and said, I'm a human being god damnit! My life has value! You opened a gmail window and yelled, I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!
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Aug 6, 2018 20:16
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Yeah, I wouldn't call someone in an abusive relationship a coward for packing their bags and stapling a gently caress-you note to the door on their way out.
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Aug 6, 2018 20:39
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Taffer posted:No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational. Of course HR is displeased, you gave them work in finding a replacement. And of course they are not confrontational in a recorded conversation that can be used against them. Good luck with the recovery.
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Aug 6, 2018 20:41
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Taffer posted:Thanks guys Great job coming to a decision and acting on it like that! There's a time and a place to outright quit and I think unfortunately you found it. I hope people never have to go through it but when they do I also hope they do so with the same aplomb that you did here.
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Aug 6, 2018 20:59
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Unless a company is paying you in advanced for work, or you have equity in the company that you wish to keep, you never EVER owe a company extra work.
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Aug 6, 2018 21:02
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Probably sound like a broken record at this point but thanks again ya'll. The support has made me feel a lot happier and confident with my decision. I'm gonna mostly take it easy for a couple days to relax then start hitting the job search hard.
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Aug 6, 2018 21:20
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That's nuts and +1 supporting your decision to get out. If I didn't work at a place that's mon-thur travel I'd reach out about a job.
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Aug 6, 2018 21:22
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Taffer posted:No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational. Coward nothing, you are protecting yourself, full stop. I'd actually characterize that action as a braver than average move, because we are societally conditioned to always leave on good terms, never burn bridges, keep your relationships strong. Well gently caress that, they forfeited their right to your courtesy when they stopped showing you any. You don't need to put up with emotional abuse for the sake of a job, not in this industry. You're awesome for doing this the way you did. Awesome. If more people in this industry acted the way you just did, everyone would be better off because more management would realize they couldn't get away with treating their people like poo poo.
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Aug 6, 2018 22:05
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Don't forget that glass door review. You mentioned that it was older people working there, I'm betting they're only there because there's no where else for them and they NEED the insurance. Congrats on getting out
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Aug 6, 2018 22:14
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Taffer posted:No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational. Taffer, my whole hearted congratulations. Being able to recognize and get out when things are getting that toxic is a valuable skill and I’m glad you valued yourself in the decision. I know exactly what it’s like to have panic attacks cause of work. If you need an ear or anyone to vent to, my PMs are open. You’ll be amazed at how different you feel now that you’re out of there
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Aug 6, 2018 22:15
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Shirec posted:Taffer, my whole hearted congratulations. Being able to recognize and get out when things are getting that toxic is a valuable skill and I’m glad you valued yourself in the decision. Congrats also to you as being the only review for the former employer. If anyone checks glassdoor that's the only opinion they get!
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Aug 6, 2018 23:13
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Taffer posted:Probably sound like a broken record at this point but thanks again ya'll. The support has made me feel a lot happier and confident with my decision. I'm gonna mostly take it easy for a couple days to relax then start hitting the job search hard. I believe that  is technically the smiley for finding a new job but gently caress it, it feels pretty appropriate here.
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Aug 7, 2018 03:36
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Taffer posted:No idea - I sent an email. I wrote a resignation letter outlining why I was quitting and then turned off notifications. Probably a cowardly move, but at this point I'm not a proud man, so. The HR person I left an open line to sent me an email asking for some information and sounded extremely displeased, but wasn't confrontational. Brother, I once left an abusive job at lunchtime and never came back. You done good!
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Aug 7, 2018 03:57
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