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Arivia posted:Again, this is not your presentation in general. This is specifically a penalty when using the Impersonate action. The action language in 2e is a LOT clearer than it was in 3e/PF 1e, and this is referring to a particular action previously called the Disguise skill. Honestly, there's a bit of a disconnect between the mechanics and the fiction of the feat and it's reminding me of nothing more than that one gnome feat about pretending to be knocked out* and how it implicitly makes it impossible to pretend to be knocked out without taking that feat. Because you're right, mechanically the effect is fine. If the fiction was just "you've trained to be good at this kind of disguise even though you're not suited to it" or something like that, it would be fine. It's boring, but this is a boring feat so it fits. But by making the feat's fiction "you're androgynous/look older in the right light/are maybe a bit orcish but are generally human-passing/etc" it's implicitly saying that you need this feat to say that you're that and that's just one of my personal hangups about how Pathfinder does feats even if it didn't intersect weirdly with a lot of character identity things. *Probably misremembering what exactly the feat did, but it was definitely something out pretending to do something while captured.
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Aug 6, 2018 07:40
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Could someone give me the lowdown of all this Holden/Morke nonsense that's apparently been going on? I haven't payed attention to Exalted since the latter days of second edition, back when they were just the Ink Monkeys rather than official devs.
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Aug 6, 2018 07:45
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ZeroCount posted:Could someone give me the lowdown of all this Holden/Morke nonsense that's apparently been going on? I haven't payed attention to Exalted since the latter days of second edition, back when they were just the Ink Monkeys rather than official devs. Mørke is a serial sexual harasser who did things like telling a prospective Exalted writer to dump her boyfriend to get work on the line. Holden consistently defends, shields, and enables Mørke, while posting performatively-woke stuff about others as a smokescreen to the fact that they're both human garbage.
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Aug 6, 2018 08:28
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They were also extremely slow at actually making books, to the point they got fired. EDIT: Oh and remember when Holden made a dismissive joke about somebody wanting Bureaucracy to have Cool Things To Do and a system to do them with? You know, the skill they'd specifically chosen to include in their game?
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Aug 6, 2018 08:31
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ZeroCount posted:Could someone give me the lowdown of all this Holden/Morke nonsense that's apparently been going on? I haven't payed attention to Exalted since the latter days of second edition, back when they were just the Ink Monkeys rather than official devs. A part of the preview/teaser stuff for the Kickstarter were some rapey Abyssal Charms. When that blew up, Holden said some incredibly dumb poo poo right here on Something Awful ("it's not 'hold her down and stick it in' rape"), then there was an SA frontpage article about the various awful poo poo from Exalted's past, particularly the first half of Infernals. Rich/Holden/Mørke walked it back shortly thereafter in a KS update, but then Mørke pulled a "all according to plan; I was testing the fans" puppetmaster horseshit in the KS comments, and he also said an apology would be forthcoming after the Kickstarter to prove his morals weren't hostage to money. Obviously, the apology never materialized. Then the project was in development hell for years. Partly because they straight up lied about an impossible release date in order to get the project greenlit at all, but also because John Mørke is a living embodiment of feature creep, and also both he and Holden were incredibly lovely about actually communicating with their subordinate writers. Somewhere in all this, Mørke put out a diversity-seeking freelancer call, but it had this bizarre questionnaire hinting at how you had to like what he likes and do some creative writing essays if you wanted to be an Exalted Lady for him. At two points during the long wait for people to get what they paid for, someone in playtesting leaked playtest drafts. Up until this point everything was under tight wraps. These leaks were both actually pretty good for Ex3 because they were usable rules that were, at least, better than previous editions. People stopped grousing so much because it looked like good things were happening. Naturally, things were clamped down and wider playtesting was curtailed because you could totally put that genie back in the bottle. Despite the generally positive reaction, there was another rapey sex Charm in one or both of the leaks. On some other forum, spacebattles or whatever I think, Holden pulled the deft rhetorical trick of turning the accusations back on his critics, "Boy, you guys sure are preoccupied with rape, what's wrong with you guys." There was also a comic stretch goal where in the lead-up to its mediocre release they were very proud to show off yet another big-boobed sex witch, and when criticized Holden once again pulled the brilliant "Boy, you guys sure are judging this character by her looks, how sexist of you" invincible counter-argument. Finally, the core book was finished. They were working on the first supplement, which they apparently wrote most of and then threw in the garbage to re-write because of John's ~vision~ (this also supposedly happened with the Charms in the core book, which was one of the reasons for the delay). They were dumped and the much more organized, competent and also just plain nicer Robert Vance and Eric Minton replaced them. At the time it seemed to be just because they were bad at their jobs. Then later there was a bunch of vague poo poo about claiming OPP/WW didn't want to pay them for work they should've been paid for, but maybe it was over-writing that they were never contracted for in the first place or something like that (in any case, a loving rich line from the guys who got hundreds of thousands of unpaid words and other unpaid hours of work out of their subordinate writers). Then, even later, it turns out John Mørke is a sex pest and that was part of why he was dumped, and while Holden (much later, when publicly taken to task) admits John don' wrong, they've just been through so much together and he's a good friend and gawsh…trails off hoping you forget there's no actual conclusion to this sentiment other than "Let me have my sex-pest friend in peace because I don't want to be personally inconvenienced by this." Disclaimer: I worked for them, very enthusiastically, up until I didn't, and about a year after I quit I made a big rear end of myself being a That Guy at them for an embarrassingly long time. The whole Abyssal rape-Charm thing was a precursor to why I left, but I absolutely can't claim some moral superiority because it took someone else suffering the real hurt confronting me face-to-face about it. EDIT: Zereth posted:EDIT: Oh and remember when Holden made a dismissive joke about somebody wanting Bureaucracy to have Cool Things To Do and a system to do them with? You know, the skill they'd specifically chosen to include in their game? There are probably fifteen unused drafts of Bureaucracy systems floating around on various people's Google Drives, but it just wasn't bespoke enough or some poo poo, so instead they scrapped the idea entirely and proceeded to mock their fans over the subject. And don't forget Holden continually doing similar poo poo about various other sticking points in Ex3 design, but apparently only stepping over the line once to the point he got a slap on the wrist from RPGnet for telling someone "We don't write the bad rules people think that they want." That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 08:33
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That Old Tree posted:Partly because they straight up lied about an impossible release date in order to get the project greenlit at all, but also because John Mørke is a living embodiment of feature creep, and also both he and Holden were incredibly lovely about actually communicating with their subordinate writers.
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Aug 6, 2018 08:39
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Zereth posted:Didn't they like, just straight up lie about how complete the game was in the kickstarter? Claiming it was pretty close to finished? And then I remember news coming out shortly after it was funded that they were starting work on something that, if their earlier claims were true, would've been done at the time the kickstarter launched? I don't remember any of the specifics of what the Kickstarter/marketing claimed/suggested about completeness at the time (though it was definitely suggestive that we were much farther along than we really were), but the fulfillment date on the Kickstarter was like, later the same year, and everyone writing on it absolutely knew that was bullshit. I asked about it in a Skype call and was outright told it was a lie because CCP would not accept the kind of time line the project actually required. A time line that would've still been far shorter than the time it ended up taking anyway.
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Aug 6, 2018 08:53
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Well poo poo. That sure is some stuff. Thanks. Back when I was still in the scene, there was so much public goodwill for the Ink Monkeys. Lot of people acted as if they were the only thing keeping the game afloat. Crazy to see how thoroughly they've done their best to piss that away.
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Aug 6, 2018 09:16
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ZeroCount posted:Well poo poo. That sure is some stuff. Thanks. The Ink Monkeys probably WERE the only thing keeping the game afloat, that much isn't really wrong. They did a shitload of unpaid work to try and fix a quagmire of a game. That Holden and Morke got given the reins of Ex3 isn't without good reason, but what happened afterwards was a clusterfuck in a lot of ways.
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Aug 6, 2018 09:19
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Never forget also, that creepy sex bullshit has long been a thing in Exalted. I mean, there's The Lover Clad in the Raiment of Tears who's straight-up Slaanesh only undead and less subtle (see her charm tree, Laughing Wounds Style), then there's The Dowager of the Irreverent Vulgate In Unrent Veils and her recursive tyke-bomb factory... and that's just the Deathlords. Then there's the Scroll of Swallowed Darkness. Once we get to the infernals it gets -real bad-.... Then there's   this .
Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Aug 6, 2018 |
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Aug 6, 2018 10:35
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I know there's some maxim to the effect of "Listen to what your customers are complaining about, but do not listen to their proposed solutions," but dear God, I sure hope Holden gets that "not in the business of writing bad rules people think they want" tagline in his permanent Akashic record. That is just so uniquely stupid and lovely above and beyond all his other poo poo. It's like the Metallica cover of "Astronomy," why would you even do this?
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Aug 6, 2018 10:50
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Liquid Communism posted:Never forget also, that creepy sex bullshit has long been a thing in Exalted. Honestly part of the reason that people lashed back as hard as they did about the things Holden was previewing during the Kickstarter was that he'd made a lot of noise about how this new edition of Exalted was going to do away with all the skeezy poo poo that for some reason kept making its way into the game and this was something a bunch of people were happy to hear because what the gently caress was with all that stuff? Why was John Chambers greenlighting it? And then everything that happened happened.
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Aug 6, 2018 11:08
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Going back to that PF2 thing, I feel like even just associating being androgynous with Deception is icky.
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Aug 6, 2018 12:35
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It's pretty clearly meant to only mean in physical appearance, and have nothing to do with identity. It's basically rolling premature aging / baby face and naturally neutral looks into one feat to make your master of disguising easier. I agree that it could be better written, I'd have gone with "you have a boring face that makes it easy to disguise yourself."
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Aug 6, 2018 13:07
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The idea is that the feat represents being really good at disguising yourself, such that you can disguise yourself as the opposite gender or someone of another ancestry without taking a penalty. The problem is tying that to a physical aspect (being androgynous or looking older than your age or whatever), which makes no sense for a feat that is supposed to represent being really skilled at disguising yourself.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:10
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Except that it doesn't represent being skilled at all. It's a physical likeness to a group that would otherwise penalize your disguise checks
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Aug 6, 2018 13:16
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It's just a slightly dumb feat in a game full of dumb feats. I don't really see the issue with it unless you deliberately read it in a negative light.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:18
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The issue is Paizo's habit of specific overriding general. Now that there's a feat that says you look androgynous, idiot grognards will say you need that feat to pass.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:21
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Kurieg posted:The issue is Paizo's habit of specific overriding general. Now that there's a feat that says you look androgynous, idiot grognards will say you need that feat to pass. Idiot grognards will do lovely stuff anyway. I don't see the point in worrying what some random dumbasses are going to do.
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Aug 6, 2018 13:24
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With all the Exalted development hell stories, don't forget that it took Vance and Minton pretty much a month to write the armory supplement that Morke and Holden had failed to produce for at least a year. The rumor I heard was that they were holding their draft hostage until OPP paid them for considerable overwriting. But maybe they were just agonizingly slow.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:08
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Joe Slowboat posted:With all the Exalted development hell stories, don't forget that it took Vance and Minton pretty much a month to write the armory supplement that Morke and Holden had failed to produce for at least a year. A little of column A, a little of column B.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:09
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Mors Rattus posted:A little of column A, a little of column B. Pretty much.
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Aug 6, 2018 15:12
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Joe Slowboat posted:With all the Exalted development hell stories, don't forget that it took Vance and Minton pretty much a month to write the armory supplement that Morke and Holden had failed to produce for at least a year. Yeah, every time Holden says that OPP didn't pay him, remember that it translates to "They didn't pay us for the work we didn't do, and the work they didn't ask us to do."
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Aug 6, 2018 15:23
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Kurieg posted:Yeah, every time Holden says that OPP didn't pay him, remember that it translates to "They didn't pay us for the work we didn't do, and the work they didn't ask us to do." In fairness they did publish that work. (Always get every agreement in writing, kids. It will save you a lot of heartache.)
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Aug 6, 2018 15:25
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Liquid Communism posted:Then there's Never have I been so blindsided by an RPG supplement and I own Montreal by Night and Freak Legion.
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Aug 6, 2018 16:50
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Dawgstar posted:Never have I been so blindsided by an RPG supplement and I own Montreal by Night and Freak Legion. 
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Aug 6, 2018 16:59
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 That's clearly a Psyon.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:03
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I don't know whether to be impressed or disappointed.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:05
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Oppa Gangnam Style 2
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Aug 6, 2018 17:18
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grassy gnoll posted:
quote:Roleplaying Hints: You aren’t sure you’ll live to see Plutonis posted:Oppa Gangnam Style 2 ahem quote:Scion Style
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Aug 6, 2018 17:23
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Thanks I hate it.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:47
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Kurieg posted:His name is "Sci", and he's a Scion of Tenjin.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:55
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basically OPP should stop doing april fool's jokes.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:03
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Ralph Wiggum rolling down the hill, forever.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:21
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Liquid Communism posted:Then there's For some strange reason Alan Alexander doesn't get much work these days. I mean, aside from nearly every V20 book.
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Aug 6, 2018 18:26
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LatwPIAT posted:For some strange reason Alan Alexander doesn't get much work these days. Yeah but- who the gently caress looked at the proof of that and was like 'yeah, that's better than just printing blank pages with "honestly, you don't want to know what was here." on them'
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Aug 6, 2018 18:44
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It's genuinely day and night with Vance and Minton taking over Exalted from Holden and Morke. The new guys are so much nicer and easier to talk to about their game, and seem to have generally more realistic goals than the old leads. And like holy gently caress, they're actually set to release more than one supplement this loving year.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:21
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SunAndSpring posted:It's genuinely day and night with Vance and Minton taking over Exalted from Holden and Morke. The new guys are so much nicer and easier to talk to about their game, and seem to have generally more realistic goals than the old leads. And like holy gently caress, they're actually set to release more than one supplement this loving year. Also they seem to be willing to release a book which doesn't have weird sex charms in it, and can write charms that do not cause eyes to boil and pop like overripe grapes.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:37
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Kurieg posted:His name is "Sci", and he's a Scion of Tenjin. It's terrible, but on-brand terrible and that's fine. It's a little disappointing that they couldn't pull out a Korean (or even Tengril) god to use instead of a Japanese one. Even if it would've been more work, it'd be at least a little more appropriate.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:39
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Alan Alexander was also the one who decided that Exalted was too gay and too matriarchal, so he made a point of nailing down all unspecified NPCs as hetero and all nations as patriarchal.
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Aug 6, 2018 19:40
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