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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I like the idea that the Stone was Seven stars and eight stones and one white tree. Ed: or does being a meteorite class it as a star?
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Aug 6, 2018 17:19
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It being originally a palantir tower makes lots of sense.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:20
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euphronius posted:It being originally a palantir tower makes lots of sense. Could be part of the Palantir network without being an actual Palantir. Maybe it's the palantir equivalent of a backup server.
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Aug 6, 2018 17:21
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The fact that that entire story was told in a rushed flashback, plus the halfway-thought-through nature of the Stone (Olsen discussed this, he's like, what, did Elendil and his sons pack in the night and rush to their ships to put out into the harbor to avoid the gestapo, but Isildur was all NO WAIT YOU GUYS I HAVE TO GET MY GIANT loving MARBLE ROCK) makes me think Tolkien never really got the whole Erech storyline working to his satisfaction
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Aug 7, 2018 00:14
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He had to get his marble rock, and a cutting from Nimloth. He was busy as Numenor was being destroyed!
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Aug 7, 2018 00:34
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Runcible Cat posted:Seven stars and eight stones and one white tree. 
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Aug 7, 2018 00:36
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Isildur probably just like, found a cool rock somwhere, moved it to its current location, and told the natives it was from Numenor to scare them
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Aug 7, 2018 00:39
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"It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell all my mates, they don't have a rock this big."
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Aug 7, 2018 00:52
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Trin Tragula posted:"It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell all my mates, they don't have a rock this big." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aO0TUI9r-So
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Aug 7, 2018 01:20
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I don't have anything to contribute but I've loved reading the discussion from the last few days and to hell with it, I'm gonna read LotR again.
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Aug 7, 2018 09:48
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Oh yeah, The Fall of Gondolin is to be released at the end of the month.
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Aug 7, 2018 16:03
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Complete prose version ? Where does it end ?
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Aug 7, 2018 16:37
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Probably going to be just a nice illustrated edition of the various stages of the material, like Beren & Lúthien. I’d expect the original Fall and the unfinished Tale of Tuor to make up most of it.
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Aug 7, 2018 16:42
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skasion posted:Probably going to be just a nice illustrated edition of the various stages of the material, like Beren & Lúthien. I’d expect the original Fall and the unfinished Tale of Tuor to make up most of it. That would be a very short book.
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Aug 8, 2018 04:13
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I liked the historiography in Beren and Lúthien. And I also liked this passage, in which Thû, the proto-Sauron, has captured the heroes, whom he strongly suspects of not being the orcs they are disguised as, and, addressing them, challenges to blaspheme:quote:Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?
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Aug 8, 2018 06:43
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sweet geek swag posted:That would be a very short book. There really isn’t way more for Chris to draw from though. The Lost Tales version is the sole complete version of the story. The Annals of Beleriand version is like three pages long. The later annals don’t get to it. The Tale of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin breaks off, hilariously, right before he actually comes to Gondolin. I expect we’ll get the lay version as well since that has never been completely published, but that’s very short fragments too, nothing like as full as the Lay of Leithian. I don’t really know what else he can do besides write a bunch of fan fiction, or magically unearth some version of the story no one has ever heard of before. Bongo Bill posted:I liked the historiography in Beren and Lúthien. And I also liked this passage, in which Thû, the proto-Sauron, has captured the heroes, whom he strongly suspects of not being the orcs they are disguised as, and, addressing them, challenges to blaspheme: Yeah this bit is probably my favorite part of the book. That’s a hell of an oath.
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Aug 8, 2018 12:14
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Bongo Bill posted:I liked the historiography in Beren and Lúthien. And I also liked this passage, in which Thû, the proto-Sauron, has captured the heroes, whom he strongly suspects of not being the orcs they are disguised as, and, addressing them, challenges to blaspheme: That's interesting- I always felt Sauron was motivated by hatred, sure, but also cold logic and a hunger for power. Thû meanwhile hates "light and law and love"- Sauron seems to find light unhelpful, laws useful (his own at least) and love incomprehensible. Have I been too kind to Sauron? Or was his earlier version more evil for the sake of being evil?
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Aug 9, 2018 00:19
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I believe the professional description for Thû is "edgelord"
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Aug 9, 2018 00:30
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Thu/Sauron is just repeating Melkorian propaganda there. He’s enforcing ideological conformity (as a trap, like early Christians being forced to sacrifice for the Roman emperor or w/e) and not discussing whatever personal beliefs he might have. Specifically I think the second stanza there is the vows he is commanding the “orcs of Bauglir” to repeat. In fact the bit right after where that quote breaks off makes me sure of it. skasion fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Aug 9, 2018 |
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Aug 9, 2018 00:43
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That's how I interpreted it: he's reciting, essentially, Melkorian scripture.
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Aug 9, 2018 01:30
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HIJK posted:I believe the professional description for Thû is "edgelord" I was going to say Melkor is far more the edgelord, but then I realised I can totally see Sauron as a 4chan ironic Melkorian, so... yeah. Post your finest Morgoth pepes ITT.
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Aug 9, 2018 11:43
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Getting bound in chains and hurled into the uttermost void to own the Valar I actually thought Tolkien had a subtle thread there which felt very modern in light of RECENT EVENTS with how it seems as though Melkor specifically loathed and hated Varda above the other Valar and Valier.
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Aug 9, 2018 11:58
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It’s not particularly subtle, Morgoth obviously has woman problems. God neglected to make him a waifu and the only girl who will give him the time of day is a fat voidspider who only wants his jewels. In some versions it was even less subtle, but alas Tolkien wound up expunging the story where he rapes the sun.
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Aug 9, 2018 12:05
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skasion posted:It’s not particularly subtle, Morgoth obviously has woman problems. God neglected to make him a waifu and the only girl who will give him the time of day is a fat voidspider who only wants his jewels. In some versions it was even less subtle, but alas Tolkien wound up expunging the story where he rapes the sun. Now that's a story I don't remember.
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Aug 9, 2018 15:30
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sweet geek swag posted:Now that's a story I don't remember. It’s in Myths Transformed. As part of the reenvisioning of the creation story to be non-geocentric, Tolkien greatly increased the prominence of the sun-maiden Arien. She becomes in these writings the guardian of the Sacred Fire that Eru places at the heart of Arda (meaning in these writings the entire local cosmic neighborhood and not just the planet earth). Melkor covets the fire and makes suit of marriage to her in exchange for it. Somehow she isn’t won over by this so he straight up rapes her. As you would expect it isn’t a good idea to force yourself on the literal sun, and Melkor is burned black by the act and thereafter loathes the sun (as do his slaves) and turns his desires to darkness instead, while Arien is so angry she flees the universe entirely. This is all probably going back to a very old concept from BOLT where Morgoth would strike a blow against the sun (in this version, as in the published Silm, a fruit of the Tree of Gold and not predating the world) by inciting argument between the sun-maiden and the moon-man Ilinsor, which would end with the sun-maiden (Urwendi in this version) falling from the sun and becoming lost in the sea-caverns beneath the world until Fionwe son of Manwe goes in quest of her at the end of the elvish age to restore her to her post and “relight the Magic Sun”.
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Aug 9, 2018 16:12
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So why is Gandalf more powerful when he's sent back after killing the Balrog? Did the Gods say gently caress it and give him a power boost since Saruman turned traitor? Or was he always stronger than Saruman and just now realizing it? Or is it a matter of evil diminishing its own power? There's a consistent theme throughout Lotr (and the Silmarillion too) of how doing evil poo poo diminishes the person. Saruman diminishes the power of his voice by becoming a tyrant. Sauron diminishes his own power with the ring (albeit, his power is expanded when in possession of the ring) and he also loses the ability to take fair forms after Numenor is destroyed. So it's possible I guess to read Saruman's loss to Gandalf as Saruman losing a lot of his former power by becoming a tyrant. Indeed by the end of Lotr Saruman is so diminished that he gets owned by a bunch of a Hobbits and Gandalf isn't even worried in the slightest about helping the Hobbits stop his wickedness.
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Aug 9, 2018 18:57
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He’s not more powerful in rpg terms. He just has an updated purpose and zero interference. I guess he’s more powerful in that he now has authority over Saruman.
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Aug 9, 2018 18:59
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I think he also has clearer memories of his time before re-entering middle earth
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Aug 9, 2018 19:03
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Some good quotes quote:‘Come back, Saruman!’ said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw. ‘I did not give you leave to go,’ said Gandalf sternly. ‘I have not finished. You have become a fool, Saruman, and yet pitiable. You might still have turned away from folly and evil, and have been of service. But you choose to stay and gnaw the ends of your old plots. Stay then! But I warn you, you will not easily come out again. Not unless the dark hands of the East stretch out to take you. Saruman!’ he cried, and his voice grew in power and authority. ‘Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council.’ He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ‘Saruman, your staff is broken.’ There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman’s hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf’s feet. ‘Go!’ said Gandalf. With a cry Saruman fell back and crawled away. Also quote:
The bolded part probably refers to his Ring quote:
Don’t know what to make of that. Seems on his face he’s saying he’s not as powerful as Sauron but second to him. But he says everyone is dangerous so that kind of down plays it. euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Aug 9, 2018 |
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Aug 9, 2018 19:13
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Ginette Reno posted:So why is Gandalf more powerful when he's sent back after killing the Balrog? Did the Gods say gently caress it and give him a power boost since Saruman turned traitor? Or was he always stronger than Saruman and just now realizing it? My understanding, though I'm on phone now, is that Gandalf the White is "uncloaked"; he is allowed to exhibit more of his innate power because he has passed trials. Basically all the wizards show up in midgard with an arm tied behind their backs. Then the Valar let Gandalf untie his arm.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:22
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You might also read that Gandalf the White is immune to injury by conventional means. When the three hunters pull out on him in Fangorn, a gesture of his staff strikes Gimli’s axe from his grip, freezes Anduril (a sword which could kill Sauron!) in Aragorn’s hand, and incinerates Legolas’ arrow in midair. He says specifically afterwards, by way of dismissing their apologies, “indeed none of you have any weapon that could hurt me”. When he confronts the Witchking at the gate, too, he shows absolutely no concern for any injury a flaming sword of dark magic might do him: he doesn’t even move. I don’t think this is mere Ben Kenobi moment of sacrifice; as with his refusal to let the Balrog pass, he has every faith in his power to simply deny his enemy passage, but this time without sword or staff. Though of course the Witchking wimps out before testing this.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:24
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The problem with Gandalf is separating his angel power from the power of his Ring.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:24
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skasion posted:You might also read that Gandalf the White is immune to injury by conventional means. When the three hunters pull out on him in Fangorn, a gesture of his staff strikes Gimli’s axe from his grip, freezes Anduril (a sword which could kill Sauron!) in Aragorn’s hand, and incinerates Legolas’ arrow in midair. He says specifically afterwards, by way of dismissing their apologies, “indeed none of you have any weapon that could hurt me”. When he confronts the Witchking at the gate, too, he shows absolutely no concern for any injury a flaming sword of dark magic might do him: he doesn’t even move. I don’t think this is mere Ben Kenobi moment of sacrifice; as with his refusal to let the Balrog pass, he has every faith in his power to simply deny his enemy passage, but this time without sword or staff. Though of course the Witchking wimps out before testing this. In case anyone hasn't reread this passage recently, it's probably my favorite: quote:In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:27
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skasion posted:You might also read that Gandalf the White is immune to injury by conventional means. When the three hunters pull out on him in Fangorn, a gesture of his staff strikes Gimli’s axe from his grip, freezes Anduril (a sword which could kill Sauron!) in Aragorn’s hand, and incinerates Legolas’ arrow in midair. He says specifically afterwards, by way of dismissing their apologies, “indeed none of you have any weapon that could hurt me”. The book is more subdued quote:
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Aug 9, 2018 19:29
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Again that power comes from I think his authority (new) as master of the White Council. He certainly has the voice of Saruman now at least.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:30
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euphronius posted:The book is more subdued It is not. skip forward a page or two. quote:’Saruman!’ cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. ‘Speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!’ And then: quote:He stepped down from the rock, and picking up his grey cloak wrapped it about him: it seemed as if the sun had been shining, but now was hid in cloud again. ‘Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,’ he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. ‘Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.’
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Aug 9, 2018 19:33
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Oh my bad . Should have kept reading He had similar power as Gandalf the grey tho. Remember the whole ghost werewolf fight where he turned into an elemental.
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Aug 9, 2018 19:34
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It does feel like sometimes Tolkien backs himself into a corner by writing about powerful demigods and monsters and then still wanting traditional army-on-army fighting to matter. It mostly works but he has to make a bunch of concessions to make it work
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Aug 9, 2018 19:36
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So in all I’d say Gandalf the white as compared to Gandalf the Grey has more political authority but the same martial and magical power to the extent Tolkien was even worried about such things
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Aug 9, 2018 20:00
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cheetah7071 posted:In case anyone hasn't reread this passage recently, it's probably my favorite: I think "immune to injury" in this circumstance is not a product of some sort of divine power, but a product of Faith, capitalized: Gandalf knows that the Witch-King cannot harm him, the same way that Aslan knows he will return from the Stone Table. The Witch King clearly believes he has the (magical) power to harm and defeat Gandalf, and he probably does -- earlier, Gandalf expresses some doubt and concern about facing him -- but that's not what wins. What wins the day for Gandalf is Faith and the intervening hand of Providence (in this case, horns of the north wildly blowing). One of the big differences between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White is that G.W. "sees more clearly"; he had to go cloaked and veiled and with his power hidden before. Now that he walks openly he can see openly, that is, with more Faith. euphronius posted:The problem with Gandalf is separating his angel power from the power of his Ring. This is generally pretty clear: his Angel power is subtle and/or involves lots of white light. His Ring-derived powers generally involve explicit fire imagery (such as his ring of fire against the wolves at Caradhras). There's a certain amount of overlap (such as when he kindles the spirits of Theoden or the Gondorians etc) but generally it's not too hard. euphronius posted:So in all I’d say Gandalf the white as compared to Gandalf the Grey has more political authority but the same martial and magical power to the extent Tolkien was even worried about such things I'm not sure this is a valid distinction in Tolkien's cosmology. To an extent at least, Tolkien's Catholicism here shows through; Power is Authority. Just as Aragorn has certain specific magical powers (use of the Palantir; "hands of a healer") because he is the Rightful Heir to the Throne, Gandalf has more magical power because of his elevated station. This is also a large part of why Gandalf can defeat the Balrog; it's not just that Gandalf is a Maia and bears a Ring of Power specializing in Flame (and the Balrog is a flame Maia of Aule gone bad); it's that Gandalf is a Servant of the Secret Fire and the Dark Fire cannot avail against that. It lacks the Authority. Gandalf is not just pontificating or tossing threats at the Bridge of Khazad-Dum; he is stating Law. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 9, 2018 |
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Aug 9, 2018 20:17
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