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Bilirubin posted:Deleting entire Cormorant fleets with one bombing run to trigger the libs Does anybody use that longbow fleet anymore? It was kind of cool, but my guess is that Fozzieclaws replaces it.
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Aug 7, 2018 00:20
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I thought fozzieclaws is dead and it’s yackdaws now
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Aug 7, 2018 01:50
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yakomo
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Aug 7, 2018 01:55
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:I thought fozzieclaws is dead and it’s yackdaws now They just changed the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus, so the fix is to bring 25% more claws.
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Aug 7, 2018 02:21
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:They just changed the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus, so the fix is to bring 25% more claws. That sounds like something we can do.
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Aug 7, 2018 02:53
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really, the actual fix for interceptors would be "choose one: nullification or damage"
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Aug 7, 2018 03:00
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:really, the actual fix for interceptors would be "choose one: nullification or damage" this, also the fix to fozziesov is to make the Upwell replacements for IHUBs require a flat damage race. none of this sovwand bullshit, none of that TiDi tanking crap via repair timers; you kill the IHUB by doing more DPS than the other guys, or save it by doing more reps. fix citadels by applying this mechanic to all Upwell structures and remove repair timers.
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Aug 7, 2018 03:06
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:really, the actual fix for interceptors would be "choose one: nullification or damage" One scout runs nullified the rest are a jump behind and are damage, what was fixed
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Aug 7, 2018 04:16
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:One scout runs nullified the rest are a jump behind and are damage, what was fixed the part where something can bubble and tackle the rest right now the only thing you can do to rando interceptor gangs is chemo/boson
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Aug 7, 2018 04:24
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They should do a battleship sized Really Heavy Interdictor that can create a bubble that traps bubble immune ships.
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Aug 7, 2018 04:32
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a goon-sized interdictor
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Aug 7, 2018 04:34
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Then everyone will do interdicted cloaked loki. Then we'll need the Lady Scarlet Class Interdictor.
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Aug 7, 2018 04:37
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CainFortea posted:Then everyone will do interdicted cloaked loki.  isnt adding space for a while, so there isnt enough space for that ship yet.
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Aug 7, 2018 04:38
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CainFortea posted:Then everyone will do interdicted cloaked loki. You can catch those, though. Back when I actually undocked and clicked on mans I could catch them with a daredevil about 30% of the time, and I'm terrible at the game.
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Aug 7, 2018 04:41
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SpaceSDoorGunner posted:I thought fozzieclaws is dead and it’s yackdaws now There are definitely still fozzieclaw runs they are a blast
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Aug 7, 2018 13:31
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:a goon-sized interdictor Aren't those just nyxes at this point?
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Aug 7, 2018 14:08
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Tsed posted:Aren't those just nyxes at this point? i guess they can technically bubble with the supercarrier projected ewar, but it lasts like 23 nanoseconds and has a forty year cooldown
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Aug 7, 2018 14:46
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:i guess they can technically bubble with the supercarrier projected ewar, but it lasts like 23 nanoseconds and has a forty year cooldown Just like my ejaculate.
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Aug 7, 2018 15:27
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:i guess they can technically bubble with the supercarrier projected ewar, but it lasts like 23 nanoseconds and has a forty year cooldown Yea but we have enough nyxes we can just daisy chain them together. :v
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Aug 7, 2018 16:01
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dragonshardz posted:this, also the fix to fozziesov is to make the Upwell replacements for IHUBs require a flat damage race. Yeah I don't think a return to the days of reinforcing a POS with one volley would be good
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Aug 7, 2018 16:23
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I check back in after being away from Eve for a while and see 1,60 new posts in the thread. The last two pages are about True Goon, Whole Sqwid, interceptors and SOV rules. Eve Thread. The Eve Thread never changes.
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Aug 7, 2018 17:56
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dragonshardz posted:this, also the fix to fozziesov is to make the Upwell replacements for IHUBs require a flat damage race. This isn't a horrible idea.
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Aug 7, 2018 19:34
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Wibla posted:This isn't a horrible idea. Fire Fozzie that is.
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Aug 7, 2018 21:37
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remove interdiction immunity from everything, then add it to shuttles
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Aug 7, 2018 21:55
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froody guy posted:Fire Fozzie that is. this guy may be on to something
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Aug 7, 2018 23:09
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:remove interdiction immunity from everything, then add it to shuttles No way interdiction immunity rules and you will take my Proteus from my cold dead hands 
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Aug 7, 2018 23:38
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froody guy posted:Fire Fozzie
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Aug 8, 2018 00:25
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fozzie isn't a vampire, it's not like firing him is going to retroactively undo all the changes he made
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Aug 8, 2018 00:31
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yeah i'm not going to not kill the vampire currently sucking on my supple neck because i can't get the blood he's already taken back
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Aug 8, 2018 00:34
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:fozzie isn't a vampire, it's not like firing him is going to retroactively undo all the changes he made you can't know that for certain unless we try
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Aug 8, 2018 00:45
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Dalael posted:you can't know that for certain unless we try greyscale got got and almost everything he did was left in 
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Aug 8, 2018 00:53
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:greyscale got got and almost everything he did was left in That was a totally different experiment with its own results. Don't you know how to science?
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Aug 8, 2018 01:13
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Ugh, nouns as verbs Anyway, its going to be pretty sweet to get home tomorrow from work around 2400 EVE, have dinner, log on and hop on a fleet, having only missed around 15 minutes of the fight
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Aug 8, 2018 01:40
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will ncdot throw down without being able to dock and tether? or does it really matter, if the keepstar is gonna die can they just dock up then get some kinda assett safety? i havent played since all this new poo poo
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Aug 8, 2018 02:47
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Is there an up to date evemon that isn't going to steal all my stuff?
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Aug 8, 2018 03:01
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Hexel posted:will ncdot throw down without being able to dock and tether? They pulled on PL's leash and recalled them from the south, so I'd say the chances of them throwing down are higher than they were on Sunday. If we drop titans on the keepstar and numbers are even or better in our favor, it almost assuredly dies. Attackers can fit long range capital guns and use them to DPS cap the structure, while doomsdays do the work of fighting enemy titans. Defenders would have to thin out titan numbers to the point where they don't reach damage cap. A Keepstar has an effective damage cap of 93,750 DPS before fit, which is about 12 avatars with long range beams fit (this might be inaccurate, whatever.) Assuming the attackers pull similar titan numbers as last week, it's highly unlikely that the defenders will be able to burn through enough titans to affect defense. Things are less certain for NCdot this time around. In the armor RF layer, bored, scared, or faction titan pilots had the option to deaggress and dock, then jump out at their leisure after the battle was over. While said pilots can still dock while the keepstar lives, their fate is less certain. Any pilot who docks up before the structure's demise has a choice -- they can stay in their hull and log off before the structure dies, or hop out of their supercap and into an interceptor. If they stay in the hull and log off, then the next time they log in they will appear in space where the keepstar used to be. Extraction could be a little risky then, but probably not all that risky. If they hop out of the hull, then the hull will enter asset safety. Then, if they wait 5 days, they can choose to have their supercap teleported to another friendly structure in system, or they can wait 21 days and have it teleported to lowsec for a much larger fee. The uncertainty compounds due to the keepstar dying. Once the keepstar dies, tether and/or docking is no longer available as a Get Out Of Jail Free card. Assuming we can hold tackle (  ), we have the chance to slaughter every single titan that remains on the structure. The window for scared/bored/faction titans to perform the actions in the previous section is much smaller, too, since the structure will eventually be gone.
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Aug 8, 2018 03:02
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Hexel posted:will ncdot throw down without being able to dock and tether? If they dock up and the citadel is destroyed their capitals will end up in lowsec (after a decent waiting period and a 15% tax). If they are currently piloting the ship then they will be in space. So in theory there is really no way to trap their capital fleet or destroy it unless they want to fight. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 03:04
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:They pulled on PL's leash and recalled them from the south, so I'd say the chances of them throwing down are higher than they were on Sunday. hurf blurf
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Aug 8, 2018 03:33
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I had been thinking about writing this since the battle of UALX. At the time I saw that it was something of a Falaise Pocket rather than the Dunkirk it proved to be. This comes from someone who is seeing this war from the bottom rather than having any special access to command channels and all information is derived from the publically available Monthly Economic Reports (CCP, please fix your MERs so that the graphs and data occur in the same order every month, it’s killing me and it made me make a couple mistakes at first). I am a member of TEST but I write not in favor of them, I write to give my insight in hopes that it may prove useful to someone. Maybe it’ll prove useful to NC/PL, the enemies of TEST/Legacy in this war, which I don’t think would be bad. “War is a continuation of politics by other means.” - Carl von Clausewitz The war that we have been wanting is upon us, we have massive TiDi titan conflicts with battles that are reaching unheard of levels since B-R. However, the game has changed since B-R; since which we have seen the two greatest upheavals to the game, skill injectors and Rorquals. Within a day, someone with a strong credit card can buy enough plex to create a capital alt and fit it, ships that were rare and decisive are now commonplace. As a result, the tactics and stylings of the game have changed. Dreads and FAXs (new but still a version of legacy fit triage carriers) are built to be disposable and lost with little survivability beyond buffer. Sub-cap meta shifts away from cruisers to battlecruisers and battleships. Shield caps are actually useful. As such, the different factions of EVE learn to fight their way of war with one major exception: NC/PL. In ages past, NC/PL were a force to be reckoned with, masses of highly skilled (both in terms of SP but also practical knowledge) and a capital cache that made most of EVE tremble. While the Mittani and his Imperium was mighty, NC/PL were the counter-weight of power. However, as with all empires, those that do not adapt or change will grow old and static; the once mighty line regiments of Frederick the Great were laughed upon by Napoleon at Jena, and too has NC/PL calcified into a relic of old. Here, I will discuss the reasons why NC/PL is effectively doomed in the current World War Reee. Three issues are apparent: NC/PL is economically doomed and it is clear from the monthly economic report (MER from here on out); NC/PL has not adapted to the new form of war in the age of Rorqual & Capital Proliferation and Skill Injectors; and NC/PL has little concept of Operational Warfare. **Economics*\* Ever since the Imperium has taken Delve, EVE has looked upon the MER and wept. Looking back to just February of 2018, Delve has been slowly ramping up to being the sole place of wealth in the entirety of EVE. This is seen in three areas, by looking at the production per region, the NPC bounties per region, and the mining value per region. During February of 2018, the leader of production was The Forge, aptly named while holding the largest single market in EVE (The Forge had over 650t of trade value while Delve had nearly 50t.) The Forge had 30t of production as a region while Delve was close behind with 29t in production value. February is notable because this will be the last month The Forge was the leader of production. Within the next month, Delve cleared ahead of the 30t mark in production and well passed into 40t of production per month while The Forge held at 33t. It isn’t until June (as the July MER hasn’t been released) that Delve has a decline in production that is noticeable at 33.3t while the Forge produced 32.9t. In respect to mining and bounties, it only gets worse. In February of 2018, Delve naturally was in the lead at over 10t in NPC bounties while the closest is Branch at less than 4t. Other regions are close with Deklein nearly matching Branch and Esoteria barely going over 3t in bounties. For the months of March through June, Branch and Esoteria hold between 3-4t in bounties but never come close to matching Delve which hits a high of 13t in bounties and goes down to 12t the following month. It goes without saying that Delve outmines the entirety of EVE at 12t of ore mined in February of 2018 and only going up every month to nearly 15t in June. Now, why the economics dump? Effectively The Imperium can and has the means of fighting any war they want. The other member of the super coalition, Legacy, is one of the top performers but nowhere near that of the Imperium, producing 2-3t per month every month consistently and getting around 3t in bounties per month. The counter argument will always be “but there are more Goons in Delve than everyone else in their regions” and yes, this is true, but that doesn’t matter just as it doesn’t matter in the real world, which I will get to in a moment. What about NC/PL? Their performance is rather middling. Judging on primary holdings in Vale and Tribute, NC/PL produced 3.1t and 6.4t in their regions respectively in February and nearly 3.5t and 5.7t in June with a small bump in March with 9t produced in Tribute and in May with nearly 7t in Vale. Mining? Less than 1t in February with both regions and and following suit each month with an exception of March. Ratting income? 2.2t and 1t respectively in February with roughly the same month by month. How much of these numbers is truly theirs over their renters is unknown, for if it's NC/PL, then it's lackluster, but if it's their renters, then it's deplorable. These stuck in the old meta alliances of note are doing far less than even the “middle ground” Legacy in Esoteria and outmatched by their renters or allies. Which gets down to the real economics. What does NC/PL have for them in the economics department that Legacy or the Imperium doesn't? Yes they all have renters, but for NC/PL, the primary source of income is ISK via renters. While something not publically available, it could be assumed that it would be great and enough to make due. It’s nice to make ISK but the issue is that the ISK needs to be coupled with production and resources. Realistically, it could be compared to the situation of the Axis and Allies in WW2, with NC/PL being the Axis and Imperial Legacy being the Allies, not due to how they align against whom I fly with but in respect for the comparison of economics. Using this wiki article as a source for numbers, it is very clear who was the producer of WW2. The Axis produced 76k tanks while the Allies produced 256k; 97k artillery compared to 1m; 222k aircraft to 637k. With very few exceptions, the Allies out produced the Axis well over 3:1 and in some areas out produced them 10:1, with a majority of the production on Nazi Germany (because what is Italy going to do?) What is worse is the access to resources. The Allies produced 4.6b tonnes of coal to the Axis 2.7b (with 2.5b being Germany’s); 597m tonnes of steel to 291m tonnes; and 1043m tonnes of crude oil to 66.7m tonnes (with Japan actually contributing 25M tonnes to Germany’s 33m tonnes). In the end, no wonder weapon was going to save Germany. The King Tiger that could kill tens of Shermans still relies on oil that Germany lacks access to. The Iron of one King Tiger could be used in other aspects, the energy from coal could be used on other aspects of the war (and this doesn’t go into other issues like finicky tanks and delicate weapons). Without the mining or production backbone to support sustained losses, NC/PL isn’t going to be able to match the abilities of their enemy. **Strategy*\* On the 18th of July, Test Alliance had a Keepstar that was anchoring in the system of UALX-3 in Tenerifis. As a result of previous movements, PL had their armor super fleet ready and worked to destroy the Keepstar before it could finish anchoring. TEST and Allies, with some help from those in the Imperium that had Shield Supers, fought long and hard to stop PL & Co. The Keepstar was destroyed but the battle continued until a crash of the server. TEST logged back in to continue, but PL & Co didn’t. NC/PL relies on a concept as old as Napoleon, the Grand Battle. Napoleon wanted decisive battles to force his enemies toward peace talks, and it’s been a fascination for all armchair generals. Austerlitz, Jena-Auerstedt, Wagram, Waterloo; big singular battles that end wars. These big, massive battles are an old style of warfare that are more common of pre-fozzie sov and argued by some to be the superior means of warfare. However, things have changed by two ways: first, Aegis Sov as it’s properly known actively worked to spread out conflicts over a constellation to make it easier on smaller groups to gain territory while making it easier on the servers. This prevents these Grand Battles that would slow down the server and ruin the fun of the player. These changes were implemented after the jump fatigue changes that limited capital projection and stopped massive rental empires. The second change was that of citadels; no longer were stations important since staging could happen anywhere and be destroyed. These two changes have shaped warfare to something more similar to contemporary warfare, a constant slow burn where armies constantly fight but few big battles happen. Unless you drop a Keepstar far forward from your home region. To exacerbate this is the two logistical benefits that have vastly changed the game: the Rorqual change and skill injectors. Rorquals have massively changed the means of production, reducing the cost of everything (except T2 items which have been affected by moon rebalancing) and throwing massive amounts of minerals around for even the smallest of alliances (as well as the material efficiency reduction of citadels but Rorquals are far more impactful) . Delve is able to out mine the universe because the Rorqual has shifted industrial action away from Exhumers to these massive 11+b whales that eat up mining anomalies so much, CCP even nerfed anomaly spawn times after a series of Rorqual nerfs to help bring balance to these extremely overpowered industrial beasts. Skill injectors are a different animal that only fuels the power of Rorquals. If the Rorqual was OP, they were made more so by the skill injector. Anyone could become a Rorqual pilot with a few clicks of a button or your skill plan could be cleared just as easily. However, Skill Injectors allow newer pilots to join the big boys, the older players that have been carefully grooming their skill plans and working to collect the capital to own several capitals. A day one pilot can be anything they wanted, even a Titan pilot. And that’s the thing, anyone can be a Titan pilot. And worse, anyone can dock up their Titan into a Keepstar. If anyone can be in a Supercarrier or in a Titan, what specialness is there to the NC/PL superfleet? No more can they throw their weight around and expect to make these decisive battles if there is a massive proliferation of their own speciality. And worse, these Grand Battles that NC/PL wants; the Grand Battles that CCP advertises and lusts for to sell to the games media, they can backfire. Napoleon marched into Belgium to defeat an Anglo-Prussian observation army meant to make sure France would be fine, marching in if the King was overthrown again. Worse, Napoleon came back and moved to defeat the observing army. Napoleon defeated the Prussians at Ligny, Ney failed at Quatre Bras, and Napoleon moved on Wellington near a small town called Mont St. Jean where, as ABBA put it, he met his Waterloo. Putting the stakes on a single battle can work against you as it did Napoleon. Napoleon marched against the Anglo-Dutch lines while PL pushed against the Shield of Imperial Legacy. At UALX-3, Legacy wanted PL to devote themselves to the Grand Battle they always wanted, knowing that they had spent the past year and a half building up Esoteria and making ISK for the fight against the PL super fleet. The game crashed, and PL was told not to log back in. Then Legacy started the trap, hell camping their last position in game. For several days, the super fleet was trapped offline and escaped, but the damage was done. The ISK war was in favor of PL, but Legacy held the field and claimed victory. This would be mirrored at X47L-Q in Pure Blind with even greater consequences. **Operational Warfare*\* Unlike what Todd Howard wants you to think, war has changed. From Napoleon to the World Wars, from the World Wars to today, war isn’t waged in the same way. What is more important is the Operational aspect of warfare. Operational Warfare is the unification of every aspect of the nation into its ability to wage war; from economics, fiscal & monetary policy, standard government policy, media control & support, morale & propaganda, logistical & production means, and standard military tactics & doctrine. Operational Warfare is Total Warfare in its fullest ability and furthest realization. Today, operational warfare has more to do with government policy married with governmental fiscal policy and the military, how much money the military gets to do what it wants and how it ties to the military-industrial complex. In a more desperate time, say during WW2, it was realized by tying nearly every aspect of life to the war effort. Women worked so men could fight, factories were retooled to make war materiale, Daffy Duck joined the Navy and Captain America punched Hitler. Everything was working to maximize America’s ability to fight war, and every nation did this during WW2. Operational Warfare still exists even in a game like EVE. We have talked about the economic potential of the two major powers, Imperial Legacy and NC/PL. Imperial Legacy, with the Imperium as the major contributor in this respect, has maximized their ability to wage war. They joke when losing a Molok that it has already been replaced (and more on that later), showing the level of production that they feel comfortable of losing. But what joking is there when NC/PL lose a Titan? “GLOBAL TELL ALL YOUR FACTION TITANS TO DEAGGRESS OR WHATEVER I DONT WANT THEM GETTING AN EASY WIN ON THE BATTLE REPORT BECAUSE OF loving FACTION TITANS.” - Killah Bee, 2018. There is no joking. There are no memes. There is no control over their own message. This simple phrase is an issue for PL but there is a similar aspect example in military history. At Borodino, Napoleon had faced a stalwart and stubborn Russian army that was eventually cleared from the field with the exception of this large hill at the center of the Russian center, the Raevsky Redoubt. Packed with guns and troops, it would be a hard push to take this without wasting an already exhausted army. Napoleon had a choice, continue to have his exhausted army push up and take the hill by force or commit his Imperial Guard. The French Imperial Guard was some of the most fearsome and skilled fighters in the era. With years of experience before they could even be eligible to apply, only the best of the best could become a Guardsman. It was a prime position with extra income and support from the Emperor, who treated them as if they were his own children. Sending them forward would see casualties from this elite force and the tattering of a reserve force that could be useful later, but that same reserve force could sway the battle and decisively end the battle. In the end, Napoleon didn’t commit the Guard; his generals were furious and those at the front pushed their exhausted troops up the redoubt and took it by force, but tired soldiers couldn’t stop the Russians from slipping away. As a result, the Russian army stayed intact, able to harass Napoleon on his way to Moscow and on his return from it. There are many what if scenarios from that day, but the failure to commit his own special forces showed the Emperor wanted to save face over all. As noted earlier, morale and propaganda are vital aspects of Operational warfare. Captain America punching Hitler is a vital to making American power look like that they could physically touch the most evil individual of Nazi Germany and such do our own propaganda has purpose. The war effort was shifted toward the reworking of capital and women entering the workforce due to the messages and propaganda from the governments of the world. A large change happened that allowed for logistical and economic success by the Allies over the Axis. The Imperium puts out music and fanfic, Legacy puts out memes, there is not as much as an effort from NC/PL. Imperium has evolved from their sprawling Empire to becoming the kings of industry. Legacy shifted from being the kicking boy of Goons to playing PL. Admission of bias, I don’t look at the EVE forums, my time is spend on reddit. I have my reasons but that’s where it is. If NC/PL posts prop that matches Legacy propaganda, that could be a thing. However, it never gets reposted if there is, and the NC/PL propaganda is as lackluster as their production numbers. Propaganda is a means of controlling opinion and message. While there was a small anti-Legacy time period during the early part of the war due to Admin issues, it was cleared up and rules were explained to the benefit of all. However, Narrative control stayed with Imperial Legacy. When PL stayed logged off after the Battle of UALX-3, there was a narrative of a cowardly PL, a PL hell camped by BRAVE, a PL that had lost more Titans than they killed.. After the Battle of X47L-Q, the Killah Bee quote caught fire. There is very little attempt to do damage control. Operational Warfare is the battle, the war, and the message. It seems that NC/PL is lacking in the latter two. They can claim “the ISK war”, but after the Killah Bee call, is it really about the ISK War or about saving face? Will NC/PL commit the Old Guard, or will the Old Guard crumble at the end as they did at Waterloo? To wage a war is not a light task. It takes many individuals countless hours in a hobby to organize, collect, produce, and pay for the ambitions of others. Wars are tiring in their own effort, the battles of UALX-3 and X47L-Q last from USTZ prime time till the crash of the server or downtime (and if I recall, PGL said that he was up for over 36 hours during UALX). However, it doesn’t seem like NC/PL have the will to win, just the will to save face. “ISK War” has been claimed in UALX-3 and X47L-Q, but at the cost of their objectives, battlefields, and face. The Propaganda War has been decidedly held by Imperial Legacy with amazing propaganda posters and NazAlGhul Fanfic. They lack the means of production to replace the losses that Imperium can easily absorb and what more is there to push them beyond their own elite stature? Legacy had a border war with Fraternity and company explode into a larger war, but the Imperium wants blood, they want revenge.
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Aug 8, 2018 03:53
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1001 Arabian dicks posted:I had been thinking about writing this since the battle of UALX. At the time I saw that it was something of a Falaise Pocket rather than the Dunkirk it proved to be. This comes from someone who is seeing this war from the bottom rather than having any special access to command channels and all information is derived from the publically available Monthly Economic Reports (CCP, please fix your MERs so that the graphs and data occur in the same order every month, it’s killing me and it made me make a couple mistakes at first). I am a member of TEST but I write not in favor of them, I write to give my insight in hopes that it may prove useful to someone. Maybe it’ll prove useful to NC/PL, the enemies of TEST/Legacy in this war, which I don’t think would be bad. tl;dr
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Aug 8, 2018 04:06
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