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Rather than having skills at all, I like what Heroquest does, which my group actually independently invented for a homebrew a long time ago (and is probably also in a bunch of other games I haven't read). Basically, instead of having an explicit list of skills/abilities/stats/whatever, all with their ratings, you just write down the things your character uses to solve problems, pulled from thin air. So if one person is good at lying they can write down "good liar" on their sheet, put a number next to it, and use that value when lying regardless of what other characteristics their actions have. Other people who don't typically use lying to solve their problems, or who aren't good at doing so, won't even have it on their character sheet. It's a whole different paradigm but it neatly dodges both "well, this action isn't covered by anything else but who would ever put ranks into it?" (see: profession) and the problem of having to learn a whole bunch of new skill vocabulary every time you start a new system.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Also the idea that people "just won't use computers" in the modern world if the systems aren't secure is laughable. A cursory glance at the news will show you that isn't true. Computers are secure enough in the real world that people feel OK to use them, because hacking is opportunistic. In a cyberpunk world or game where you can study up to just above average in computer programming, download the right software, then hack banks (or individual users' bank accounts) at will, they wouldn't. I mean, hacks still make the news in the real world. In most cyberpunk settings they'd be happening every hour. Plus, you don't have to use them everywhere. Certainly in many workplaces I've seen, they use electronic card readers on the office door. But for the really secure stuff (including the server room) they use.. a regular big lock. Or a safe. Heck, there's another spin on the setting: let the "punk" aspect of cyberpunk be not using computers, because they entrench corporate power if secure and ruin lives if insecure. Ludditepunk. hyphz fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 20:18
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remusclaw posted:So maybe soft social and hard social. Not wedded to those names, but as a general idea. I feel like it might be worth having at least two, where three or more (I'm looking at you right now Shadowrun) feels like too many. hyphz posted:In rules terms perhaps, but in setting term it's way different. In a world with magic it's easy to think there's no escape from magic. With hacking? Just don't use a computer. gradenko_2000 posted:big news, Splicer endorses Numenera
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Aug 7, 2018 20:21
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remusclaw posted:So maybe soft social and hard social. Not wedded to those names, but as a general idea. I feel like it might be worth having at least two, where three or more (I'm looking at you right now Shadowrun) feels like too many. Maybe base it upon the culture, as in Slum/Wage Slave/VP. Each stat is for trying to communicate with, persuade, or relate to a different social class.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:23
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hyphz posted:Computers are secure enough in the real world that people feel OK to use them, because hacking is opportunistic. You are extrapolating information about the setting at large from how the rules for PCs work. Don't do that. If you need an excuse for why you don't do that, I just offered one two small paragraphs up from the bit you quoted. PCs aren't normal people, "average" for a protagonist is not average for an extra.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:24
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hyphz posted:Addon: Though, if you wanted a really dark cyberpunk setting, you could always have the players as the Megasoft Malicious Software Developer Removal Team. Much easier than closing all those loopholes was making sure there's.. consequences.. if you go experimenting with things in the APIs you shouldn't. Want to try typing "root" on that login just to see? Your death is certain. Your friends' will be uncertain. And by the time you die, you will wish to... hyphz posted:Computers are secure enough in the real world that people feel OK to use them, because hacking is opportunistic.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:26
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Hell, even Shadowrun, which does this badly, has starting PCs roughly at the power level of elite corporate operatives. PCs start with 5-6 in their main skills and 4-5 main stat, plus any equipment and trait bonuses. Randos start with 2-3 in their professional skills and stats and not much else.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:27
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cheetah7071 posted:Rather than having skills at all, I like what Heroquest does, which my group actually independently invented for a homebrew a long time ago (and is probably also in a bunch of other games I haven't read). Basically, instead of having an explicit list of skills/abilities/stats/whatever, all with their ratings, you just write down the things your character uses to solve problems, pulled from thin air. So if one person is good at lying they can write down "good liar" on their sheet, put a number next to it, and use that value when lying regardless of what other characteristics their actions have. Other people who don't typically use lying to solve their problems, or who aren't good at doing so, won't even have it on their character sheet. It's a whole different paradigm but it neatly dodges both "well, this action isn't covered by anything else but who would ever put ranks into it?" (see: profession) and the problem of having to learn a whole bunch of new skill vocabulary every time you start a new system. I like Heroquest, but I will admit that a lot of what I am doing right now was inspired by that conversation going on in this thread about narrative vs games with more concrete rules, and I admit, in this case I am leaning more toward the latter. I want there the be a skill list, even if it is a fairly concise one, because I feel like there can be an issue of scope in games where players describe their own abilities. FAE and 13th Age, very different games in general, both have the issue where part of the game becomes trying to convince the GM to let you do all the stuff with the skill you are good at. I want to nail things down, while still leaving each skill to cover a wide area, it just needs to be a well defined area.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:28
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Splicer posted:Black ICE is a Thing in cyberpunk already, as is people coming after you for typing root where you weren't supposed to. You're literally just describing the concept of cyberpunk here. It's genre ignorant, but Shadowrun certainly does this. If you can get a powerful enough commlink with the right programs, you can hack at will even with low skills. And since by default the PCs are just deniable-asset street punks taking odd jobs to survive, it's difficult to argue that others couldn't do anything they can.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:31
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golden bubble posted:Maybe base it upon the culture, as in Slum/Wage Slave/VP. Each stat is for trying to communicate with, persuade, or relate to a different social class.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:32
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Splicer posted:Look at it the other way. What game effects can social skills result in? How do you want to differentiate or package them? What's the meaningful difference between "Do this or I'll kill you" and "Do this and I'll kiss you"? Do these even need to be the lines you split the skills down, or are these one skill and the other skill is something else? In this case I am thinking the difference is in the character doing it. There is some value in being able to say I'm a charming bloke or I'm a scary fucker, and they both.... you know what, If I kill ability scores, it doesn't matter because it's not like either of these is based on Strength or Charisma now is it. You are right, unless there is a better reason than I can think of right now, there really only needs to be one skill.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:33
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hyphz posted:And since by default the PCs are just deniable-asset street punks taking odd jobs to survive, it's difficult to argue that others couldn't do anything they can. This is not the default. They're deniable asset highly skilled mercenaries. Literally everything in the book backs this up. There is a separate power level for 'street'.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:33
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fool_of_sound posted:This is not the default. They're deniable asset highly skilled mercenaries. Literally everything in the book backs this up. There is a separate power level for 'street'. was it always like this? I know what you mean, but I feel like cyberpunk tends to lean more towards the "street"-level based on pop culture impressions of it
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Aug 7, 2018 20:36
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I feel like the term Shadowrunner has taken on too much specific meaning for what originally probably just was a stand in for adventurer. I mean, the robin hooders, the gangers, the mirrorshaded ops guys, they are all Shadowrunners focussed on different adventuring style. Kill the man/Kill for the man/pick up the mans scraps.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:was it always like this? I know what you mean, but I feel like cyberpunk tends to lean more towards the "street"-level based on pop culture impressions of it PCs were always very competent professional paramilitary types, with good gear, corporate contacts, and key skills maxed out. The whole game seemed based on Turner, the professional corporate extraction mercenary from Count Zero who gets paid top dollar for his work (at least until he is double-crossed during an operation and has to go on the run) - which is certainly a legitimate part of the cyberpunk oeuvre, just very far from being the entire thing.
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Aug 7, 2018 20:49
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FMguru posted:This is one of the many, many reasons that even back in 1990, Shadowrun was criticized for entirely missing the "punk" part of cyberpunk. Personally I'm fine with that, because while I love the Cyberpunk aesthetic, I hate most of it's themes
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Aug 7, 2018 20:51
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I guess Punk-Cyberpunk is not a good thing to think about while worrying about Brexit. A bunch of violent opinionated people rebelling against a system while continuing to depend upon and demand the products of that system, anyone?
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Aug 7, 2018 20:52
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So when the point of punk flew over your head, how dp ypu think it gained enough velocoty to escape Earth's gravity entirely?
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Aug 7, 2018 21:00
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hyphz posted:I guess Punk-Cyberpunk is not a good thing to think about while worrying about Brexit. A bunch of violent opinionated people rebelling against a system while continuing to depend upon and demand the products of that system, anyone? You might be the stupidest person alive
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Aug 7, 2018 21:02
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Moriatti posted:So when the point of punk flew over your head, how dp ypu think it gained enough velocoty to escape Earth's gravity entirely? Punks at least distributed their music by hand. The typical “cyberpunk” is doing the equivalent of playing a Gibson robot, doing the mixing on their ASUS laptop and posting it on Soundcloud and iTunes.
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Aug 7, 2018 21:10
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drrockso20 posted:Personally I'm fine with that, because while I love the Cyberpunk aesthetic, I hate most of it's themes
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Aug 7, 2018 21:27
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Guys did anyone else buy the Monsterpocalypse relaunch or was it just me?
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Aug 7, 2018 21:29
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I saw a hundred new posts in the chat thread and I knew hyphz had to be involved.
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Aug 7, 2018 22:44
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remusclaw posted:In this case I am thinking the difference is in the character doing it. There is some value in being able to say I'm a charming bloke or I'm a scary fucker, and they both.... you know what, If I kill ability scores, it doesn't matter because it's not like either of these is based on Strength or Charisma now is it. You are right, unless there is a better reason than I can think of right now, there really only needs to be one skill.
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Aug 7, 2018 22:58
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Splicer posted:I meant like, decide what you want social encounters to be like, and then, while trying to avoid preconceptions, work out how best to have the character sheet facilitate that. Yeah, sorry, I am all over the place on this right now. My current thoughts are on how much this whole deal should resemble D&D 4. I said earlier that I didn't want this to be a D20 game, but on the other hand, D&D 4 really is a great base game that could use some(maybe a lot of?) tweaks. I liked Strike and all, backed it, but I admit, I like my 4E alike a little crunchier than that, if maybe not so crunchy as it actually was. Otherwise I am just writing everything that comes to mind at the moment and am looking to sort through it and put together a coherent mission statement so I can get a dedicated flow going.
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Aug 7, 2018 23:04
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Moriatti posted:Guys did anyone else buy the Monsterpocalypse relaunch or was it just me? One of our locals did, and a bunch of guys in my area (including me) are going to. I'm super excited for it.
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Aug 7, 2018 23:26
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Is Ar tonelico cyberpunk? You cast spells by singing programming commands at a magical supercomputer and the admins are literal gods
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Aug 8, 2018 00:16
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alg posted:What if, like her tweet said, people were allowed to play what they like without other people constantly asking "But have you tried <whatever the latest storygame is>???" I mean maybe you misread or didnt finish the tweet chain but the comment was about not putting in elements from other games in D&D and just going and playing that game instead. Which in almost all real world circumstances isn't an option and seems to be a gross misunderstanding of how hard it is to find anything thats not-D&D going. I'm not someone who really plays fate and isn't even a big fan of it but this concept is pretty universal.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:29
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Leraika posted:Is Ar tonelico cyberpunk? You cast spells by singing programming commands at a magical supercomputer and the admins are literal gods Yeah, it's like phreaking.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:35
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Leraika posted:Is Ar tonelico cyberpunk? You cast spells by singing programming commands at a magical supercomputer and the admins are literal gods It's post post cyberpunk. It takes place so far in the future that terminals are cute girls and control of them determines the fate of nations.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:44
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The setting conceit of Ar Tonelico is that everybody's living in a place managed by a giant computer but nobody knows how it works and have just passed down console commands as magic spells, which rules but isn't cyberpunk
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Aug 8, 2018 00:46
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S.J. posted:One of our locals did, and a bunch of guys in my area (including me) are going to. I'm super excited for it. I'm super excited to bring it to my group. Can't wait to slam people into buildings.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:54
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On tonight’s episode of Microscope we detailed the history of how two sentient races became one, how climate change caused the plot of Elysium, and how star watching, smuggling, and the lack of a common language resulted in a dark good game
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Aug 8, 2018 01:22
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Kai Tave posted:I saw a hundred new posts in the chat thread and I knew hyphz had to be involved. Hyphz and 4e, the two topics guaranteed to generate 50+ posts virtually instantaneously.
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Aug 8, 2018 02:00
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Moriatti posted:I'm super excited to bring it to my group. Can't wait to slam people into buildings. Really hoping they talk about it more on the stream tomorrow.
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Aug 8, 2018 02:40
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hyphz posted:I guess Punk-Cyberpunk is not a good thing to think about while worrying about Brexit. A bunch of violent opinionated people rebelling against a system while continuing to depend upon and demand the products of that system, anyone? 
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Aug 8, 2018 02:50
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One of the better period-agnostic realistic hacking systems I've seen was based on the hacker rolling a bunch to scan the target system to gather bonuses on the actual infiltration roll, while the sysadmin scanned for attempts to scan their system and rolled a bunch to gather bonuses to oppose the actual infiltration roll. SJG's Hacker is also a surprisingly good baseline for what more realistic-toned hacking feels like. Wardialing indials and hoping the sysadmin doesn't boot you off the system. There's also a more modern form of hacking that involves Raspberry Pis running Kali Linux and compiling exploits from metasploit on the fly, which honestly fits pretty well into a hacking-as-spells paradigm: you have a bunch of abilities that do specific things to a target device or network (spells) and you roll against the A few systems that draw distinctions between combat-time spell casting and out-of-combat rituals with grander but less immediate effects, and I wonder if that might be a good model for the modern day hacker: Raspberry Pis cracking Wi-Fi passwords and delivering simple payloads from metasploit for your then-and-there watch_dogs style hacking as your spells, and the eight-hour energy-drink-fueled sessions of squinting at open-source printer drivers to bypass authentication as your rituals.
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Aug 8, 2018 02:54
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Going full on cyberfantasy might well take inspiration from Digimon where the digital realm is a full on alternate dimension, and you're best off dragging the whole party in there to fight antivirus programs and malware and such until you get where you want to go. Bit like an inverted Matrix. Other than that though, hacking just can be glorified lockpicking and espionage most of the time, especially for lower level characters. With fancy cyber-decks/laptops/tablets and whatever being the fancy gear when most of the time you just need an access point and a tool kit. Physical access is the important part, hence why you need the thugs with guns and katanas or whatever. Also, of course, social engineering, ie posing as a teenage girl who is inexplicably interested in the company middle manager and even more inexplicably interested in his passwords.
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Aug 8, 2018 04:36
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IMO it doesn't really matter how a sci-fi setting does the digital world/matrix/net/whatever so long as all the characters can interact with it meaningfully. It's a problem when only the Hacker can interact with an entire cool alternate world.
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Aug 8, 2018 05:33
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fool_of_sound posted:IMO it doesn't really matter how a sci-fi setting does the digital world/matrix/net/whatever so long as all the characters can interact with it meaningfully. It's a problem when only the Hacker can interact with an entire cool alternate world. agreed. the issue isn't the hacking per se, it's the game taking a break for 3/4ths of the party
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Aug 8, 2018 06:35
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