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Yeah, I have a friend who really likes when indie games do expansive things with the genre, and it's been tricky for him to get into Nier Automata bc he's not much into the anime EGL aesthetic. I know he'll totally adore the ending of this game if he can reach it, but I don't know if the rest of the game is his kind of thing.
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Aug 7, 2018 23:15
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I usually try to emphasize that Automata is a flawed gem very very far from perfect, and it is totally understandable (but unfortunate) if the flaws cause people to bounce off. There's more than a few rough edges, but it has a lot of unique and curious things that cause people praising it to mind them less. I'd say the game ends very strongly and is hard to judge without having seen that part, but i think (and of course everyones mileage on this varies) overselling the game on just that aspect probably ruins the impact. History Comes Inside! posted:Something other games should definitely steal if they're going to lift anything from it. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Aug 7, 2018 |
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Aug 7, 2018 23:21
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If you're into new, boundary-pushing indie games this won't really appeal, it's just a nice story with good enough gameplay and a wonderful aesthetic. If the general look/feel and music don't appeal you're not likely to get much out of the game. It's hard to sell people on really, I'm glad there was enough interest in 2B's tush for the game to do as well as it did.
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Aug 7, 2018 23:27
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What are Automata's "flaws"? I thought it was a fun neat game. Not Citizen Kane or anything, but flawed is a harsh word!
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Aug 7, 2018 23:37
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The combat system isnt really rewarding to get better at (dodge too strong and items are dumb), none of the boss fights are all that good aside from Simone, half of route B is really boring. I'm very willing to overlook these problems but some people take gameplay flaws a lot more seriously than I do.
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Aug 7, 2018 23:41
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I wasn't particularly impressed my first time through, and thought people who liked it probably did in retrospect. Turns out they do, and now I do too!
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Aug 8, 2018 00:24
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Route B was pretty much Sidequest Extravaganza for me, but I can see how if you did everything aside from the poo poo that’s actually B Route only or effectively gated to Route B with the level curve how it might be a slog.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:35
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2house2fly posted:I wasn't particularly impressed my first time through, and thought people who liked it probably did in retrospect. Turns out they do, and now I do too! I liked it in real time!
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Aug 8, 2018 00:45
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My biggest flaw is that the weapon types and individual weapons never felt different to me. Say what you will about Nier 1, but I missed the awesome spear lunges when I switched to a sword. In Automata I approached every enemy the same way. Weapon upgrades never seemed to make a real difference, and I almost never noticed weapon stats or properties. I loved the chip system, but it suffered from the same issue as rings in Dark Souls. I can either take a big increase in health/stamina/EXP, or I can give myself +2% thrust counter attacks when my enemy has full health and I’m attacking from midrange with a level 3 long sword. I’d rather they eliminate the safe choices and force you to experiment. Really make you consider a chip that disables melee but gives you a super pod, etc. The side quests were generally better than Nier 1, but a few sucked. In particular, the unit data quest was abysmal. I enjoyed hacking, but I thought it was a huge missed opportunity. We could have got cool ship upgrades and weapons, different ship designs, special attacks, etc. instead you’re controlling the same avatar with the same gun in every hack, which is a big part of the game. This didn’t bother me, but I really wish they didn’t label A/B as endings. It makes me so loving sad that people just thought they were done and went back to redbox. It would be like people quitting Bloodborne after they got to Byrgenwurth. They should have labeled them movements or chapters. All that said, this is still one of my fave games ever, and I will die for Yoko Taro.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:45
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No Wave posted:If you're into new, boundary-pushing indie games this won't really appeal, it's just a nice story with good enough gameplay and a wonderful aesthetic. Except the game integrates the mechanics and narrative in a way that's uncommon outside of indie games. To go with an obvious early example, there's the way the UI is a resource where you can gain more room for powerups by turning off your health display.
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Aug 8, 2018 00:49
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Automata would've been a much better game if level difference did not dictate how much dmg you deal to enemies and vice versa. I have completed the story on Hard mode but it was pretty annoying because sometimes you were simply too low level to attempt a specific quest. Also 99 item cap trivializes most stuff unless you are playing on Very Hard. Its a shame because I absolutely love everything else about the game.
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Aug 8, 2018 05:36
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Smirking_Serpent posted:This didn’t bother me, but I really wish they didn’t label A/B as endings. It makes me so loving sad that people just thought they were done and went back to redbox. It would be like people quitting Bloodborne after they got to Byrgenwurth. They should have labeled them movements or chapters. I'm surprised that this is even an issue. Wasn't there a post-credits message from the Square CEO or maybe Yoko Taro telling you to keep playing because that wasn't the end? I remember thinking that I better do it if they felt the need to explicitly state that. While I agree that it's sad that people put it down after seeing the first run of credits, faking out the "endings" gave the route C intro a little more impact so I still support what they did.
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Aug 8, 2018 06:17
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Hikaki posted:I'm surprised that this is even an issue. Wasn't there a post-credits message from the Square CEO or maybe Yoko Taro telling you to keep playing because that wasn't the end? I remember thinking that I better do it if they felt the need to explicitly state that. Yeah there’s definitely a keep playing message. I mean in a perfect world everyone who played this game would get to ending E. But with the amount of exaggeration and hyperbole online, it’s not a surprise that people get confused or mislead and quit early. Long before I decided to play the game, I was under the impression that I would have to do 5 separate complete playthroughs to get to the end. I’m glad I ignored that, but other people probably didn’t even give it a chance. There are at least a few guys in the PS4 thread who quit during Route B because they thought it would be the exact same stuff but with hacking 3 or 4 more times. I’m a fan of the game’s structure, don’t get me wrong. I think Route B is vital. I just wish the game did a better job explaining to people how much they’re expected to “replay” so they don’t confuse it with a Dark Souls/Yakuza/etc new game plus.
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Aug 8, 2018 06:31
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:What are Automata's "flaws"? I thought it was a fun neat game. Not Citizen Kane or anything, but flawed is a harsh word! The combat system is simplistic, rudimentary even. The world design is dull and has a vaguely last generation feel about it. I liked Nier A a fair bit but I wouldn't blame anyone for bouncing off it, especially given the praise it receives. I mean its a very compelling game story wise but with minimal draw from the gameplay itself.
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Aug 8, 2018 06:44
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No Wave posted:The combat system isnt really rewarding to get better at (dodge too strong and items are dumb), none of the boss fights are all that good aside from Simone, half of route B is really boring. These are the big ones. The boss fights, aside from Simone, are strikingly boring when you replay them without being hyped by the story.
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Aug 8, 2018 07:40
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I think the combat has a ton of potential but for most players playing on easy or normal the game never forces them to ever touch most of what the game has to offer. It's a risk of erring on the side of approachability, but i'm glad they didnt make this a "single difficulty with unforgiving dexterity/pattern recognition roadblock skill-checks"-souls like. I know someone who refunded the game because he died twice in the tutorial section and never found the button to dodge (he wouldn't play on anything but hard difficulty). A friend of mine put the game down at the start of C because she hated the fashion and was utterly bored by the combat on auto-chip-easy. Preferences and tolerances vary, it happens. I had a fantastic time on my first playthrough (on hard with a few dozen deaths) adapting chip setups, even during the many stretches of the game where the main story kind of vanishes into the background for hours. If anything my opinion on the game has soured a bit retroactively for its ps2-era love of using invisible walls and pacing issues with time spent re-treading the same limited number of areas a lot (most noticeably if you do all the sidequests), and the weirdly incidental material/crafting system. I think Yoko Taro straight up stated that part of that was stuff needed to make a 40+ hour rpg on a budget. If the next Nier was a much tighter Platinum package like MGR (3-6 hours for a run, far less with skipped cutscenes) i wouldn't mind, but i doubt that'd go over well with longstanding fans of its format. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 08:14 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 07:57
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I loved it during my first play-through and still do, I ignored most sidequests because they were terrible and I think that's the way to play the game.
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Aug 8, 2018 08:37
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RoadCrewWorker posted:
I've thought about that too. Frankly the open world kinda sucks. The areas are tiny and the amount of invisible walls are gross. It was especially bad for me coming immediately from the king of open worlds, Zelda BOTW. I think moving to a chapter format would help a lot with pacing and perhaps allow for more focused, detailed areas. One thing you'd lose though is the downtime you get while traveling to waypoints which is when we can take in music and atmosphere, and I don't know if that's worth getting rid of.
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Aug 8, 2018 10:22
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some guy on the bus posted:Well you beat Nier, so normal mode in Nier Automata will be super easy. It doesn't have a good challenge. You don't need much expert timing and reflexes. It's really easy.
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Aug 8, 2018 11:06
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Regarding the bosses, I’d actually say the boss right before the C/D split is one of the best boss fights I’ve seen. I thought it did an incredible job of capturing the tension as A2 and 9S race to the top of the spire, the perspective swapping keeps you invested in both characters, while the shortening timespans between the swaps really heightened the impression of how close things were. I liked that it was different in such an interesting way, rather than just a big monster to kill, because the boss you fight isn’t the real boss at that point. It keeps up that theme from Nier of two people with opposing objectives, because in this fight the boss is the person you’re controlling 50% of the time. And also the person you’re controlling the other 50% of the time.
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Aug 8, 2018 12:56
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I think the levelling system only detracts from the game. Weapon upgrades and chips already give a good sense of progression, and the auto-chips are a good system for letting disabled people progress through the game so they don't have to grind. The leveling system just lead to insanely tedious side mission fights if you do them early and boss fights that are over way too fast. I actually really loved the buildup to the ending fight in C/D, then the final fight was ruined by me having 20 levels on my opponent and killing them in like two hits. I do think a lot of RPGs have a similar problem, but usually levelling systems provide a system of progression that adds something to the game.
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Aug 8, 2018 13:12
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Fredrik1 posted:I loved it during my first play-through and still do, I ignored most sidequests because they were terrible and I think that's the way to play the game. Some of the best or most memorable parts of the game are hidden away in sidequests Amnesia is great foreshadowing/world building Machine Examination is very interesting Stamp Collecting is one of the funniest things in the game Wandering Couple has a great twist Lost Sister has some fun dialogue Retrieve The Confidential Intel throws you off at the end in a dark way Heritage Of The Past has interesting first game connections as well as the best spear in the game Data Analysis Freak 1 and 2 gives more insight into Operator 21O etc
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Aug 8, 2018 16:31
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Ending C/D spoilers: Wandering Couple and Amnesia (and I guess to some degree Yorha Betrayers) are both really thematically important and make the ending land a lot better.
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Aug 8, 2018 16:43
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I’m very glad I did Amnesia, yeah.
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Aug 8, 2018 17:29
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Amnesia's just some great storytelling even standing on its own, rest of the side missions felt a bit like gags by comparison.
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Aug 8, 2018 17:32
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I agree that Nier: Automata is very much a flawed game. Despite being MUCH more impressive and comfortable to play than the first Nier, it just doesn't do open world design all that well. The invisible walls are absolutely horrendous, and I'll second that it didn't get better coming straight from Zelda BotW, AKA the God-King of Open World Games. The RPG roots also feel superficial at best. I really, really, REALLY did not care about any of the numbers. The sharp level divide when fighting enemies is a horrendously bad idea - I would've preferred levels to be gone altogether, allowing encounters to be better fine-tuned. I'm sure I wasn't the only one annoyed at how massively game-breaking the hacking ability got, if you did even just a moderate amount of sidequesting. Finally, the encounters. It's a good system, with lots of options, but the encounters are just kinda bland. Especially infuriating when the game DOES deliver some sweet fights, if the stars align and the levels match. I would've liked optional hidden fights, the way Bayonetta or Wonderful 101 hid all over the place. Kick out levels too, and we could have some sweet extra-nasty fights, with disabled items/changed dodge windows/enemies preferring moves that require you to take stuns more into account/etc. It's obviously not the focus of the game, but the system is all there... And I wasn't really a fan of the general android aesthetic, either. But I could live with that, given how great the machine designs are, and how delightfully hosed-up everything with androids gets later in the game. Everything else is A+++, there I said it
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Aug 8, 2018 18:16
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I played Bayonetta this year and it was so drat fun. I wish Automata's mechanics were that enjoyable because the attack animations are splendid already. I think if you don't do most of the side quests you are totally missing out, and the lonely environments fit stylistically with the rest of the game. I was lost in the atmosphere, at least my first playthrough.
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Aug 8, 2018 19:50
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So I know this is random, but are we supposed to know Kaine's a hermaphroditie? I only learned this after finishing the game, along with a ton of other stuff that I think might only be in supplementary material. Or maybe I just missed a lot of it. I was looking for an interesting analysis of NieR and God help me, I tried Youtube. There are good analyses of my other favorites like Metal Gear Solid 2 so I held out hope. All I got was some guy praising Taro for having Kaine'sexuality be understated and an afterthought unlike the awful SJWs at BioWare who try to market games to LGBTQ people. How dare they.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:44
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NikkolasKing posted:So I know this is random, but are we supposed to know Kaine's a hermaphroditie? I only learned this after finishing the game, along with a ton of other stuff that I think might only be in supplementary material. Or maybe I just missed a lot of it. It's heavily implied in the text adventure flashback at the beginning of Route B. I think it was a bit more explicit in Japanese as well, much like Emil being gay. I normally wouldn't plug myself this way, but if you're looking for an analysis on Drakengard/Nier/Automata, I wrote an essay over a year ago exploring the games. I'm not totally satisfied with it, especially with the beginning section, which is honestly an overly long personal rambling about games and art that you can definitely skip. I promise you I don't complain about SJW's, but I might seem a little high on the game considering Automata was new at the time. I'm sure there are good video essays somewhere on Youtube. Clemps's stuff was okay, but I wasn't really into the cutaway gags and such. SuperBunnyHop made a recap video of the first game in the lead up to Automata, and he put out an Automata video shortly thereafter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8xx4sT6rEI Beefstew fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 03:47
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I think I would use the term "has weaknesses" rather than Flawed. Doesn't Flawed imply like... ruined? Like a Flawed game would be one with excellent combat, story, sound and visuals but they goofed up and it's literally impossible to Save and if your HP every hits a multiple of 256 the game reboots I should've paid closer attention to the story, because all I got was a pretty standard The Humans Are Dead and it was Robots that Did It
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Aug 10, 2018 04:02
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Beefstew posted:It's heavily implied in the text adventure flashback at the beginning of Route B. I think it was a bit more explicit in Japanese as well, much like Emil being gay. Aw man, I love SBH's stuff. Thanks fort that. And I'd love to read all of your essay, rambly parts or no, but I imagine there are spoilers? I do legit want to play the Drakengard games. Also if I might ramble myself, Taro's idea that all this killing in games must be in some way negative, really resonates with me. I take roleplaying seriously and in games like Dragon Age or even Fallout, I have always felt that it was inevitable that the Player Character becomes desensitized. You kill hundreds, maybe even thousands of people. That has to change a person, dampen their empathy and their ethics. But after depopulating entire towns via stabbing or shooting or burning, a cutscene pops up and we're supposed to recoil in horror at the idea of killing? It never made sense to me and maybe Mr. Taro feels similarly.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:52
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A flawed game would be a game that... has flaws. A flawed game would be "the visuals took a hit to keep the framerate consistent so everything looks muddy and a bit misty, there's not much enemy variety, the combat is too simple, and having to play through the first half of the game twice gets tedious" etc. Fallout New Vegas is my favourite game ever but I'd definitely call it flawed.Beefstew posted:It's heavily implied in the text adventure flashback at the beginning of Route B. I think it was a bit more explicit in Japanese as well, much like Emil being gay.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:53
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Yikes, if New Vegas is "flawed" I don't think any video game on the planet can be considered flawless.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:56
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"Flawed" is "damning with faint praise" territory
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Aug 10, 2018 04:57
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Yikes, if New Vegas is "flawed" I don't think any video game on the planet can be considered flawless. NV is amazing but it was also rushed. The damage is nowhere near KOTOR II but I miss stuff like the Legion territory which was supposed to be in the game.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:04
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Ooo kotor2 is the perfect use case for flawed, nice. Good potential, you can tell what they were going for, but it's legitimately ruined and not a good game.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:06
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Flawed just means there are flaws that stick out. It doesn't have to be a deal-breaker. New Vegas and Automata are flawed gems.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:16
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The Witcher 3 is a flawed game.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:28
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Yeah, tbh I know people love KotOR 2 now and I respect a lot of the innovative stuff it tried to introduce into the series (which would later be revisited in The Last Jedi, to an even more divisive reaction, even though I appreciated it more there), but man the initial release of KotOR 2 is loving bad. I don't think I've ever really been able to get over how disappointed I was when I first played the game, from its bugs to its obviously incomplete second half. It's prevented me from really talking about it in any objective context.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:33
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You know what isn't a flawed game? Ikaruga. It's just about perfect at what it wants to do. You play Ikaruga, you're seeing a pretty near perfect execution of the ideas the team wants to convey. And you know what else? Games like Ikaruga are really, really rare. Even good simple games tend to have something that doesn't work quite right, and complicated systems have a lot more room to screw up. "It's not perfect" is basically a defensive play, attacking something you love so someone else can't attack it first, rather than a statement with any meaning. Nier Automata is a brilliant game that integrates the gameplay, aesthetics, and narrative on a level few other games even bother to approach. There are legitimate problems (I agree that the leveling system is a kludge, and Hegel is a miserable fight.) but I'd still be comfortable calling it one of the greatest of all time.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:47
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