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Flavahbeast posted:People with working class backgrounds can absolutely be corrupt. The vast majority of people criticizing Maduro have no issue with his background He's just gonna say "oh but they do!" and it's not going to get anywhere. People say this thread is an echo chamber but the fact that the only people who support Maduro seem to live in an entirely different world than the Venezuelans ITT I don't see this ever progressing. I'm going to give you one chance, CAPS LOCK BROKEN, explain what the hell this economic war is, why did it coincide with the entirety of Maduro's time in power, and why haven't things recovered after oil prices went up? I need to understand where you're coming from here.
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Aug 8, 2018 19:05
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It's interesting that the people who never read about Venezuela or come to this thread except when it makes the front page of US media sources criticized the thread regulars for being skeptical of Maduro's first claim that it was a drone assassination attempt and that everyone here is just into conspiracy theories that make the Venezuelan government look bad... and yet no backtracking at all despite everyone in this thread universally agreeing with the government's stance after a day or two when more complete stories came out. And yet those same people who think that we're into anti-Venezuela conspiracy theories stick to their broken, brain-dead preconceptions for years, ignoring all sources from any different language, region, or class background. If this were a different forum, I'd guess that people like caps lock are inflammatory trolls, but unfortunately a quick look through his posting history says that's not the case, and a quick look at his reg date means he's not some pizzafaced 16 year old in his parent's attic, but far more likely some 30 year old liberal arts major working a lovely dead end job and railing endlessly on Reddit or wherever about kkkaptailism and using "lol u haven't read Hegel's dialectical happenstance on class consumerism???" as if it were an insult.
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Aug 8, 2018 19:22
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Flavahbeast posted:People with working class backgrounds can absolutely be corrupt. The vast majority of people criticizing Maduro have no issue with his background There was some in this thread literally mocking him for being an “illiterate bus driver.”
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Aug 8, 2018 19:53
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:There was some in this thread literally mocking him for being an “illiterate bus driver.” So predictable. Stop dodging questions, we can't debate on anything if we don't know your position.
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Aug 8, 2018 19:57
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:There was some in this thread literally mocking him for being an “illiterate bus driver.” Almost certainly, but if you dig a little deeper, you will see the actual issues that poster have with Maduro have much more to do with him currently being a kleptocract running a country into the ground for personal gain than the fact he once drove a bus.
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Aug 8, 2018 20:01
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fnox posted:So predictable. I made my position clear when I posted that article on economic warfare through multinationals (like the one that runs polar). Instead, the groupthink of this thread rushed right over it to spew a barrage of ad hominem attacks. I dont know posted:Almost certainly, but if you dig a little deeper, you will see the actual issues that poster have with Maduro have much more to do with him currently being a kleptocract running a country into the ground for personal gain than the fact he once drove a bus. Ah so our classist slur against a bus driver was really about him being a corrupt kleptocrat, which is why it was important to mention him being an “illiterate bus driver.” When I think corrupt oligarchs I too associate that with public transit workers. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 20:02
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Sergg posted:I can personally confirm that Brown Moses is a Jewish CIA agent from Saudi Arabia with dual membership in MI6 and Mossad. Russia Today did an extensive interview with his mother where it was revealed that he is part of the plot to plant false flags all over the world. He's deeply involved in the Maduro false flag. All those Venezuelan special forces who just ran away are crisis actors. One good thing about all these overproduced RT videos about me is they're great footage for an upcoming documentary on Bellingcat.
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Aug 8, 2018 20:02
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D&D gets so antsy over the perceived useful idiocy for whatever geopolitical boogeyman elite pubs have primed them to hate on command yet unwittingly serve the exact same function for the American empire.
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Aug 8, 2018 20:02
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Bathtub Cheese posted:D&D gets so antsy over the perceived useful idiocy for whatever geopolitical boogeyman elite pubs have primed them to hate on command yet unwittingly serve the exact same function for the American empire. Why do you think me and my entire family left Venezuela? If we were elites, why did we leave to some foreign country to become lower class immigrants? CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I made my position clear when I posted that article on economic warfare through multinationals (like the one that runs polar). Instead, the groupthink of this thread rushed right over it to spew a barrage of ad hominem attacks. What does Polar have to do with oil production levels being at historical lows? How exactly does Polar harm the economy? Has Maduro stolen any money?
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Aug 8, 2018 20:09
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fnox posted:Why do you think me and my entire family left Venezuela? If we were elites, why did we leave to some foreign country to become lower class immigrants? After the chinese civil war my dads entire family left for the US and started over. Whereas before they lived in ostentatious splendor. Must’ve not have been elites under the KMT then!
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Aug 8, 2018 20:13
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Bathtub Cheese posted:D&D gets so antsy over the perceived useful idiocy for whatever geopolitical boogeyman elite pubs have primed them to hate on command yet unwittingly serve the exact same function for the American empire. These guys think I'm a credulous rube, but actually it is they who are the rubes  well cya
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Aug 8, 2018 20:17
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fnox posted:Why do you think me and my entire family left Venezuela? If we were elites, why did we leave to some foreign country to become lower class immigrants? Political connections to right wingers and/or foreign governments that you'll never be forthcoming about anyway. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2018 20:17
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https://twitter.com/bell_shakur/status/1026187558538158081?s=21
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Aug 8, 2018 20:25
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:After the chinese civil war my dads entire family left for the US and started over. Whereas before they lived in ostentatious splendor. Must’ve not have been elites under the KMT then!
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Aug 8, 2018 20:29
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The Supreme Court has just issued a ruling naming Julio Borges as one of the heads of the attack against Maduro, and accusing him of treason, attempted murder, and a couple of other crimes. The court has ordered his arrest, but Borges is not in Venezuela (he's been out of the country for a while). Borges is the head of the Primera Justicia party, which is the largest party by seats in the National Assembly. Also, the Public Ministry provided updates on the case today in a lengthy speech by attorney general Tarek Willaim Saab. Some key points: 1. There were two drone teams (two people each) and two spotters for a total of six individuals carrying out the attack. 2. Drone Team 1 operated inside an office building near Maduro's speech. Drone Team 1 operated the drone that exploded in the air. 3. Drone Team 2 operated inside an SUV located at a corner nearby the presidential stand. Drone Team 2 was caught in the act. This is the drone that crashed into the building. 4. The operation was financed by two people in Colombia, one of whom is a former National Guard colonel, and a person inside the U.S. Judging by the names of these people's names, they could all be Venezuela. Saab also said that they have a list of 19 people who it claims were directly involved in the attack.
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Aug 8, 2018 20:33
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Saladman posted:It's interesting that the people who never read about Venezuela or come to this thread except when it makes the front page of US media sources criticized the thread regulars for being skeptical of Maduro's first claim that it was a drone assassination attempt and that everyone here is just into conspiracy theories that make the Venezuelan government look bad... and yet no backtracking at all despite everyone in this thread universally agreeing with the government's stance after a day or two when more complete stories came out. Yeah man for sure (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 8, 2018 20:38
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Political connections to right wingers and/or foreign governments that you'll never be forthcoming about anyway. Is that how it works? We're just all paid shills for America? There's no chance that maybe what we saw is real and what you think Venezuela is like isn't true? How is that any less ridiculous than us saying you're paid shills? CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:After the chinese civil war my dads entire family left for the US and started over. Whereas before they lived in ostentatious splendor. Must’ve not have been elites under the KMT then! How many elites do you think there are? Colombia has received million of Venezuelan migrants in recent years, and there's hundreds of thousands more escaping to Brazil, Chile, Peru and Argentina. There's so many leaving that Brazil is no longer accepting more. Is that all a lie? Is it propaganda? Do you just want to hear testimonials from Venezuelans other than me? Would that suffice?
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Aug 8, 2018 20:46
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fnox posted:How many elites do you think there are? Colombia has received million of Venezuelan migrants in recent years, and there's hundreds of thousands more escaping to Brazil, Chile, Peru and Argentina. There's so many leaving that Brazil is no longer accepting more. Is that all a lie? Is it propaganda? Do you just want to hear testimonials from Venezuelans other than me? Would that suffice? I don’t doubt that there are refugees all over Latin America as a result of America’s economic warfare against Venezuela. That’s like pretending american bombing never created refugees in Libya or Syria. The issue isn’t the refugees but who is responsible for creating the conditions causing people to fled.
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Aug 8, 2018 20:50
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I don’t doubt that there are refugees all over Latin America as a result of America’s economic warfare against Venezuela. That’s like pretending american bombing never created refugees in Libya or Syria. The issue isn’t the refugees but who is responsible for creating the conditions causing people to fled. What is the mechanism by which America is harming Venezuela's economy? How are they doing it? If those refugees tell you they've seen the negligence and waste begin with Maduro, would you believe them?
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Aug 8, 2018 20:52
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fnox posted:What is the mechanism by which America is harming Venezuela's economy? This resolution from the UN indicates it’s America’s economic warfare: https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/LTD/G18/067/36/PDF/G1806736.pdf?OpenElement Here is a good read on the politics of food in Venezuela, and how multinationals like polar conspire to destabilize the regime: https://monthlyreview.org/2018/06/01/the-politics-of-food-in-venezuela/
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Aug 8, 2018 20:59
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This resolution from the UN indicates it’s America’s economic warfare: First one is a dead link, and I don't want to go through all that just to understand what you are talking about. Explain it in your own words.
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Aug 8, 2018 21:05
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Venezuela crippled its own food production when it broke up huge farms, but underfunded the supplies needed for all the new farmers they gave the land to. Venezuela has neglected maintenance on everything for so long the ferry system it had expropriated is falling apart, and its oilfields and docks are in ruin. We have news about how the government has seized factories and bakeries, but does nothing with them. Venezuela is a living breathing example of the fears capitalists have about the government seizing the means of production. Expropriatied businesses are neglected or shut down and looted. Venezuela has obliterated its own economy so much that even its oilfields are falling apart from years of neglect.
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Aug 8, 2018 21:09
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fnox posted:First one is a dead link, and I don't want to go through all that just to understand what you are talking about. "Multinationals like Polar conspire to destabilize the regime" is, as far as the article goes, rather a bit of rhetorical sleight of hand. Here are the paragraphs in question: quote:First, it is important to look carefully at the food lines: their composition, their location, and what products are being sought. The people waiting in these lines have overwhelmingly been poor working-class women—an attack on both everyday life at the household level, as well as on the popular organization of the Bolivarian Revolution, in which women have played a key role. The lines have also largely formed outside supermarkets, where consumers wait to access certain specific items that have mostly gone missing from the shelves. These consist of the most consumed industrially processed products in the Venezuelan food basket, particularly precooked corn flour. The specific selection of these missing items—those deemed most essential to the population—tends not to make the headlines, and this points to a wider gap in media narratives. For while precooked corn flour has gone missing, corn-based porridge has remained available; milk powder disappeared from the shelves, but fresh dairy products like cheeses can still be found, and so on. After which it segues into (paraphrasing, obviously) "Venezuela's food situation would be perfectly fine via imports if not for the debt-trading restrictions imposed by the evil Americans, particularly evidenced by that one very popular press conference line from a State Department dude", "demonstrations against the government are a grand plot by elites against the poor, the nonwhite, and the Revolution", "what about the Caracazo of 1989? why didn't the world care then? also the government has hardly killed anybody compared to then", and quote:Bearing in mind the revolution-counterrevolution dialectic, it is imperative to look at the role of the elite, whose power extends throughout much of the agrifood system, and who have exploited the current “crisis” to further consolidate their power while simultaneously seeking to dismantle redistributive agrifood policies. These forces have launched a material assault on much of the population, disproportionately impacting the poor and working class while further provoking an already frustrated middle class. They are also attacking the legitimacy of the government, both internally and externally, particularly by discrediting Venezuela’s reputation for exemplary achievements in the fight against hunger and toward food sovereignty. followed by a quick synopsis of some (allegedly?) grassroots agricultural stuff, and the government CLAP Local Provisioning And Production Committees, which I seem to recall coming up in this thread before with a somewhat different tone than this article takes towards them. There is lots and lots and lots of other stuff in the article, a lot of which is history, but this is a helpful quick synopsis that CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:First link isn’t dead, it works fine for me on mobile. You need to pick a language first since it’s a UN document. Guess not, it's apparently my job. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 21:16
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fnox posted:First one is a dead link, and I don't want to go through all that just to understand what you are talking about. First link isn’t dead, it works fine for me on mobile. You need to pick a language first since it’s a UN document. You need to read both links and refute them. It’s not my job to do your work for you.
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Aug 8, 2018 21:17
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:First link isn’t dead, it works fine for me on mobile. You need to pick a language first since it’s a UN document. Link's bad for me too. Mind quoting the title of the document or something so we can find it with the search?
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Aug 8, 2018 21:22
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Link's bad for me too. Mind quoting the title of the document or something so we can find it with the search? Its a/hrc/37/l.34 in their library
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Aug 8, 2018 21:30
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My issue with economic bear with the US is why did they step things up now and not during Chavez?
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Aug 8, 2018 21:40
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edit: dude I was quoting corrected his postpunk rebel ecks posted:My issue with economic bear with the US is why did they step things up now and not during Chavez? A somewhat non-crazy, non-disingenuous answer might be "they sensed that Maduro was less competent than Chavez / the Venezuelan economy was weakened by other factors". A slightly more creative alternative: "their long slow quiet campaign to undermine the Venezuelan state has borne fruit and now they can act openly against the innocent PSUV". Or there's my answer, which is that Obama moved in 2015 to disrupt the particular thefts of a lot of the top kleptocrats (at least by way of transferring moolah to/through the US), followed by some combination of the permanent bureaucracy wanting to keep the pressure on the PSUV from there, and Donald Trump wanting to be a big boy and one-up his predecessor. Also, the annihilation of the opposition's theoretical legitimate path to election probably didn't help. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 21:42
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I don't agree with the assertion that the US has been waging an economic war against Venezuela for years, but even if that were the case, why would it matter? Venezuela enjoyed good relations with many nations near and far, with material support from heavies like Russia and China. That, combined with the efficiencies introduced by the Bolivarian revolution should have been more than enough to keep people fed and happy
Flavahbeast fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 21:45
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:First link isn’t dead, it works fine for me on mobile. You need to pick a language first since it’s a UN document. Are you aware that food distribution has been in the hands of the Maduro administration for a while? Through the CLAP boxes, which still mean waiting for very long hours. Your sources still seem to ignore how most of the products that are hard to find are the ones with regulated prices, and the situation with those has only gotten worse. You keep bringing up Polar as if it's like something that just came up but Polar was founded almost 80 years ago, they got to where they are because of their products. They made good choices, Venezuelans make a lot of arepas and they happen to sell corn flour that is perfect for it. Venezuelans like to drink a lot of beer (it's really warm over there) so they made a lot of beer. Other transnationals, even big American ones have given up on Venezuela, in part because the government can just seize their factories like they did with Kellogg's, in part because the currency control scheme is arbitrary and forces them to shut down as they can't import products using bolivares. The reason why Polar still operates is because they consolidated their entire operations within the country, they have their own production chains and distribution networks like any other big food company does. The reason why the government hasn't taken it over is because they know that if they do they won't be able to run it. There's a pretty obvious pattern to follow regarding food in Venezuela that your article ignores. The problem before Chavez came in was not that the food wasn't there, it was that the food was too expensive for the lower classes. Nowadays the issue is completely reverted, you pay a pittance for products the government regulates, but they don't exist anywhere because they're produced at a loss or not at all. We used to have milk and yogurt and every dairy product you can imagine. They started disappearing after the government took over Lácteos Los Andes, the largest dairy company in the country. We used to have coffee everywhere, but then the government took over Fama de América and turned it into Cafe Venezuela, and in a few short months there were coffee shortages. Again like, I need to know what the hell you're talking about to even debate your position, this is why I need you to explain what you mean when you say economic war. If America wanted to destroy Venezuela's economy, why shouldn't they just stop buying their oil? The US has a trade deficit with Venezuela, it would actually be in their interest to buy less, but they don't, they're still the main buyer. fnox fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 21:46
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One of the things I find more oddly infuriating about the "Venezuela Can Do No Wrong, It Must All Be The Imperialists And Counterrevolutionaries" kneejerk is that for reasonable goddamn socialists Venezuela offers a shitload of important lessons on things that worked, things that could have worked but were either flubbed or utilized maliciously to cement the PSUV / steal money, and things that are straight up bad ideas. Most prominently and topically, we now have pretty firm experimental evidence that price ceilings without subsidies are a bad idea at best. Lesson learned, adjust future socialist policy ideas. edit okay fine my inner fishmech demands that I also allow for the possibility of correctly designed and flexible price ceilings, but we also have experimental evidence that the PSUV's economists didn't / can't do that, so
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Aug 8, 2018 21:53
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punk rebel ecks posted:My issue with economic bear with the US is why did they step things up now and not during Chavez? They literally tried to coup him in 2002
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Aug 8, 2018 21:55
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I don't know how old my fellow venegoons are, but polar was massively active in social charities during my early years. My baseball Little league was put together by them, for instance, and food charities were pretty normal. Polar industries have done a hell of a lot more for Venezuela than Maduro.
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Aug 8, 2018 21:57
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GreyjoyBastard posted:And Counterrevolutionaries" kneejerk is that for reasonable goddamn socialists Venezuela offers a shitload of important lessons on things that worked First time I've heard this in the thread. Explain.
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Aug 8, 2018 22:08
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Its a/hrc/37/l.34 in their library In case that anybody is curious as to what this is, this is a draft resolution by the Venezuelan delegation to the UN that condemns "unilateral coercive measures", AKA sanctions, without ever going into detail as to which sanctions or what are they doing to the economy. I don't recommend reading it, this is by far the most roundabout way of saying that US sanctions hurt the Venezuelan economy. So now I ask you, which unilateral coercive measures has the US done that hurt Venezuela's economy?
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Aug 8, 2018 22:11
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The issue at hand isn't whether or not the US is "hurting" the Venezuelan economy but more so if it is hurting the Venezuelan economy to the point where Maduro and co. are justified.
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Aug 8, 2018 22:14
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GreyjoyBastard posted:One of the things I find more oddly infuriating about the "Venezuela Can Do No Wrong, It Must All Be The Imperialists And Counterrevolutionaries" kneejerk is that for reasonable goddamn socialists Venezuela offers a shitload of important lessons on things that worked, things that could have worked but were either flubbed or utilized maliciously to cement the PSUV / steal money, and things that are straight up bad ideas. None of those things are socialism. Classic liberal confusion where welfare capitalism gets conflated with public ownership of property. It’s also amusing that when OPEC launched economic sanctions against America in the 70s the serious people in the room also slapped a price ceiling on oil without “subsidies.”
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Aug 8, 2018 22:17
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I don't know how old my fellow venegoons are, but polar was massively active in social charities during my early years. My baseball Little league was put together by them, for instance, and food charities were pretty normal. I've legit never heard bad things about Polar until Chavez decided they were the enemy. I happened to live close to Los Cortijos where they have their brewery and headquarters, they actually had discounts for Polarcita crates if you bought them from near the factory, and I mean I remember seeing how crowded those corner stores got. The Polar brand came to be associated with quality, there's a reason people buy Maltin over Malta Regional, or PAN over Harina Juana. Well, at least when you were able to choose which to buy. fnox fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 22:19
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punk rebel ecks posted:First time I've heard this in the thread. Explain. heck if i can recall, but I bet something worked at some point  The non-CLAP grassrootsy stuff in that agriculture article sounds interesting, for example. fnox posted:In case that anybody is curious as to what this is, this is a draft resolution by the Venezuelan delegation to the UN that condemns "unilateral coercive measures", AKA sanctions, without ever going into detail as to which sanctions or what are they doing to the economy. All of the four executive order sanctions, technically, but probably the biggest is restricting Venezuela's ability to secure US-based loans using Venezuelan public assets as collateral. For a country that's defaulted on loans twice in recent times, that's a big deal. It also keeps the PSUV higher-ups from effectively selling off (more of) the country's physical assets to Goldman Sachs and pocketing much of the proceeds, so I'm not sure how upset we should actually be about that. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:None of those things are socialism. Classic liberal confusion where welfare capitalism gets conflated with public ownership of property. Whoops yeah, amateur mistake on my part that I've chastised people for. Although technically I only mentioned one thing. 
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Aug 8, 2018 22:23
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:None of those things are socialism. Classic liberal confusion where welfare capitalism gets conflated with public ownership of property. It’s useful to point out how much Venezuela diverges from traditional notions of socialism. In terms of policy Chavez’s Venezuela has a lot in common with many Latin American junta governments and right wing dictatorships from before the 1990s, only with higher levels of public spending. Edit: Venezuelan expropriations remind me more than a bit of how dictators like Somoza managed their economy, although they were more profit minded in their management. CAPS LOCK BROKEN I wish you would explain more about the economic war. For instance, it often seems to be suggested that the shortages are artificial, created because private entities are hoarding goods instead of selling them. However I’d think a business like Polar would run out of money and go out of business if it stopped selling flour and just spent years hoarding it in a warehouse? They can’t have that much surplus capital that they can carry on such a scheme for years. What am I missing? Squalid fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Aug 8, 2018 |
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Aug 8, 2018 22:29
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