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Sampatrick posted:If you use this reasoning, then paying any amount of money whatsoever on Magic is the exact same. If you break things down to subjective vs objective forms of cost, then there is no sane way to talk about cost. For people who can't afford Standard, $200 and $1000 are functionally identical. Do you see how this is infinitely reductive? It's not a statement that has any meaning. It is impossible to ever say anything about a format being reasonably priced from a subjective point of view. just because you think of a thousand dollars as affordable for yourself and 3-6k not doesnt make it some "objective" fact that can be discussed about how one format is allegedly affordable and the other isnt, and other than repeatedly making the point that those two cash points arent significantly different for a lot of people i dont know what to tell you.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:06
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mcmagic posted:Legacy was never bad but it's exceptional now. It was absolutely unplayable for the better part of a year.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:07
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rabidsquid posted:just because you think of a thousand dollars as affordable for yourself and 3-6k not doesnt make it some "objective" fact that can be discussed about how one format is allegedly affordable and the other isnt, and other than repeatedly making the point that those two cash points arent significantly different for a lot of people i dont know what to tell you. Literally my point was that it was much more reasonable to save up for a thousand dollar purchase not that it's somehow affordable for me to purchase it. The objective reality is that Legacy is four times as expensive as Modern. Like jesus christ what kind of universe do you live in where you're staring at your navel and saying that actually legacy and modern are both equally expensive. The card Underground Sea is literally more expensive than the deck Tron. Legacy is a much more expensive format than Modern. Stop being so willfully dense.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:15
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suicidesteve posted:It was absolutely unplayable for the better part of a year. Lack of verity doesn't mean the games weren't great and highly interactive.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:16
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mcmagic posted:Legacy was never bad but it's exceptional now. Agreed. A weekend of legacy and modern is a great loving weekend.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:25
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Sampatrick posted:Literally my point was that it was much more reasonable to save up for a thousand dollar purchase not that it's somehow affordable for me to purchase it. okay, this is my last attempt. this statement is not equally true for somebody who makes 20k a year and somebody who makes 80k a year. which is why there's no "objectively modern is affordable but legacy isn't."
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Aug 10, 2018 03:27
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rabidsquid posted:okay, this is my last attempt. this statement is not equally true for somebody who makes 20k a year and somebody who makes 80k a year. which is why there's no "objectively modern is affordable but legacy isn't." Okay cool my point is that objectively Legacy is four times as expensive as Modern. You can say that maybe some people can't purchase either, but you sure can't say that Modern isn't four loving times as affordable as Legacy. Literally my entire point this entire time has been that it's a whole lot loving easier to save up for Modern compared to Legacy.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:32
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Sampatrick posted:Okay cool my point is that objectively Legacy is four times as expensive as Modern. You can say that maybe some people can't purchase either, but you sure can't say that Modern isn't four loving times as affordable as Legacy. Literally my entire point this entire time has been that it's a whole lot loving easier to save up for Modern compared to Legacy. You also said that $1000 is affordable to just about anyone, so why don’t you just shut up about it already.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:57
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ShadeofBlue posted:You also said that $1000 is affordable to just about anyone, so why don’t you just shut up about it already. No sir please work on your reading comprehension. I said it was feasible to save up $1000 for just about anyone.
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Aug 10, 2018 03:59
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Legacy Death and Taxes: $1,174.98 https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-death-and-taxes-21908#paper Modern Humans: $1,363.14 https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-humans-46452#paper Modern is more expensive than Legacy, checkmate
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Aug 10, 2018 04:00
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mcmagic posted:Lack of verity doesn't mean the games weren't great and highly interactive. This really should be the golden standard of a format. Yes, diversity is great, but if the games are just two people gold fishing against each other I couldn't care less about the diversity that requires sideboard silver-bullets. I remember watching a SCG finals that was affinity vs. merfolk, and that was one of the most boring games I have ever seen in magic.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:03
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AnEdgelord posted:Legacy Death and Taxes: $1,174.98 You can do better if you use Modern Jund in order to really prove your point
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Aug 10, 2018 04:03
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Sampatrick posted:You can do better if you use Modern Jund in order to really prove your point If its really feasible for almost anyone so save up $1000 for an mtg deck then legacy is affordable off the back of D&T: see above Merfolk: $1,360.63 https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-merfolk-53585#paper Goblins: $962.78 https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ur-53837#paper Burn: $468.72 https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-ur-51818#paper
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Aug 10, 2018 04:10
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AnEdgelord posted:If its really feasible for almost anyone so save up $1000 for an mtg deck then legacy is affordable off the back of Yes you are allowed to use outliers from a data set in order to justify your position. Most decks are more expensive that that, however, and it's a little disingenuous to use outliers to prove your position.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:15
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Let's say that you decide that you want to play a non-rotating format, and you are able to put away $50 a month towards this goal (or more or less, it doesn't matter for this exercise). Assuming (for the sake of taking cherry picking decks with prices that prove your point out of the equation) you want to play a deck with a cost of the average of the top~12 decks in your chosen format between Legacy and Modern, which format will you be able to start playing sanctioned tournaments for first? Just buying the cheapest deck in a format is not a guarantee that a person will enjoy a format because the cheapest deck might not be the type of deck that person enjoys playing, which is another reason I'm working off of an average. Quick and dirty averages from mtg goldfish put legacy's average at $3340 and modern's at $1310. It's going to take a lot longer to put together a legacy deck from scratch than a modern deck. If you're worried about a banning, that matters quite a bit because it could mean the difference between getting to play with your deck before it's finished or being hosed (though if that's a concern, one might reconsider what deck to buy into at the start). The fact that some people who can't afford either format and rich people who can buy into either outright without a monthly savings plan both exist doesn't change either of those things. I would argue that the average person looking to buy into an expensive format (I'd argue they both are, in different degrees) is in neither of those positions, and will instead be working in gradually based on available budget month to month. Sampatrick's "everyone can afford $1000" comment was foolish, but discounting everything he says afterwards regardless of his reasoning because if it stinks of avoiding an argument to avoid losing it (or caring more about winning an argument than about being correct). I love legacy and don't care nearly as much about modern, but I can't deny that legacy is appreciably more expensive and thus harder for most people to be able to play. It's a drat shame IMO, but it's true.
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Aug 10, 2018 04:44
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I just started playing Magic again after like a 15 year hiatus, having sold all of my stuff way back then. I have no real interest in going to events, keeping up with the net lists, or spending a ton of money, just playing games with my friends. After looking at all the formats, I decided I would stick to standard since it is newer and cheaper, and I would like to try brawl as well. I like the idea of a rotating format. I looked at pauper, but I feel like that can be too restrictive. The idea of spending $1k on a deck of cards is laughable to me. I'm not making GBS threads on people who do, it's just that for me, Magic is basically like a board game night thing I do, it's just not that big of a deal.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:09
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Lol, burn is not competitive in legacy any more than Sarkhan, Fireblood is competitive in modern. Talk about your outliers. All this talk about MTGA and Hearthstone conversion rates is making Eternal look like a better and better deal every day.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:23
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Sampatrick posted:No sir please work on your reading comprehension. I said it was feasible to save up $1000 for just about anyone. What the gently caress is the difference? Are you saying that anyone with $1k in their bank account should just go out and buy a modern deck? Screw paying rent, right! Nevermind the fact that most people never actually have that much money in their account in the first place. So I don't know what sort of definition you are using for "feasible" but under any reasonable one, it is not even close to being feasible for "just about anyone" to save up $1000. If you are in a financial situation where you can, then that is wonderful for you, but in this world, it isn't even feasible for "just about anyone" to earn enough money to feed their family, and afford a home, and pay for school supplies, and maintain their car, all at the same time, so again, gently caress off.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:26
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Reynold posted:I just started playing Magic again after like a 15 year hiatus, having sold all of my stuff way back then. I have no real interest in going to events, keeping up with the net lists, or spending a ton of money, just playing games with my friends. After looking at all the formats, I decided I would stick to standard since it is newer and cheaper, and I would like to try brawl as well. I like the idea of a rotating format. I looked at pauper, but I feel like that can be too restrictive. The idea of spending $1k on a deck of cards is laughable to me. I'm not making GBS threads on people who do, it's just that for me, Magic is basically like a board game night thing I do, it's just not that big of a deal.  I really like limited formats for this reason. Fairly cheap, get to see a lot of cards and every time it's different. Standard is fun because it normally stays fairly cheap, and bashing something playable together normally doesn't cost megabucks.
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Aug 10, 2018 05:27
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Reynold posted:I just started playing Magic again after like a 15 year hiatus, having sold all of my stuff way back then. I have no real interest in going to events, keeping up with the net lists, or spending a ton of money, just playing games with my friends. After looking at all the formats, I decided I would stick to standard since it is newer and cheaper, and I would like to try brawl as well. I like the idea of a rotating format. I looked at pauper, but I feel like that can be too restrictive. The idea of spending $1k on a deck of cards is laughable to me. I'm not making GBS threads on people who do, it's just that for me, Magic is basically like a board game night thing I do, it's just not that big of a deal. Brawl might be tricky to find games, depending on your local scene. Nobody around here plays it. Personally, I think EDH is the best format for people that want access to everything Magic has to offer, ranging from very affordable (sub 100$) to very expensive. By nature of it being multiplayer, having the most expensive deck at a table is actually detrimental alot of the time, since people will hate you out of games pretty quickly when you start dropping ABUR duals, mana crypt and stuff like that.
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Aug 10, 2018 06:01
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All this talk about expensiveness of the formats made me curious about how much the lands are to blame. So I wrote a dumb script to grab prices off of mtggoldfish to compare some prices. I knew it was bad, but sheesh. 
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Aug 10, 2018 06:09
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Just play no-reserved-list legacy.
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Aug 10, 2018 06:11
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Jabor posted:Just play no-reserved-list legacy. I do, it's called modern, it's decent
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Aug 10, 2018 06:16
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oryx posted:All this talk about expensiveness of the formats made me curious about how much the lands are to blame. So I wrote a dumb script to grab prices off of mtggoldfish to compare some prices. I knew it was bad, but sheesh. Grixis Delver is a really cheap deck if you're not including lands. But that's also why I never sell lands on standard rotation. They will always go up.
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Aug 10, 2018 06:53
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Reynold posted:I just started playing Magic again after like a 15 year hiatus, having sold all of my stuff way back then. I have no real interest in going to events, keeping up with the net lists, or spending a ton of money, just playing games with my friends. After looking at all the formats, I decided I would stick to standard since it is newer and cheaper, and I would like to try brawl as well. I like the idea of a rotating format. I looked at pauper, but I feel like that can be too restrictive. The idea of spending $1k on a deck of cards is laughable to me. I'm not making GBS threads on people who do, it's just that for me, Magic is basically like a board game night thing I do, it's just not that big of a deal. because pauper goes back WAY far its power level is some weird legacy lite, and power level aside that means pauper isnt as restrictive as it may seem. the multicolor decks are either a little worse than you'd like or a little narrower in scope but karoos and tap lands let you play multicolor anyway. its not as restrictive as it sounds and is probably my favorite format
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Aug 10, 2018 06:59
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oryx posted:All this talk about expensiveness of the formats made me curious about how much the lands are to blame. So I wrote a dumb script to grab prices off of mtggoldfish to compare some prices. I knew it was bad, but sheesh. What I learned from this is lands are way too loving expensive.
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Aug 10, 2018 07:47
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Reynold posted:I just started playing Magic again after like a 15 year hiatus, having sold all of my stuff way back then. I have no real interest in going to events, keeping up with the net lists, or spending a ton of money, just playing games with my friends. After looking at all the formats, I decided I would stick to standard since it is newer and cheaper, and I would like to try brawl as well. I like the idea of a rotating format. I looked at pauper, but I feel like that can be too restrictive. The idea of spending $1k on a deck of cards is laughable to me. I'm not making GBS threads on people who do, it's just that for me, Magic is basically like a board game night thing I do, it's just not that big of a deal. If you're just looking for a chill time to play Magic with some friends and don't want to throw down a bunch of money at once, think about setting up some Sealed or Draft nights- everyone brings $12-24 worth of booster packs, builds some decks and plays some games. It's honestly probably the cheapest and purest way to enjoy Magic. Dominaria, full-block Amonkhet, and Unstable are all really good recent draft/sealed formats and shouldn't be too hard to track some cards down for right now. I'd avoid Ixalan block and M19 as draft formats. Pauper isn't restrictive at all in terms of cards. The bigger problem with Pauper is that new sets are contributing very little to the format, there's a very small number of commons that are just head and shoulders better at being the centerpiece of a deck then most (since most commons are made to be deck filler, not deck features) and now that it's getting the spotlight and thus under scrutiny, it's becoming increasingly 'solved.' The first player in your group that sleeves up a version of Ninja Delver or Tron is going to be the table villain for a long time because those are a pair of decks that most cards at common just... don't deal with particularly well. I would be wary about considering Standard as the 'budget' Magic option, but if you're not going to be playing in any kind of serious competitive scene you'll probably be fine. Standard is only cheap until you remember that every three months come new cards, and most decks will need at least some financial investment from the new sets to stay competitive, if just to acquire new sideboard tools to be able to deal with decks coming out of the new hotness. Keeping Standard-current can cost you more in a year then building a Modern deck if your interests lie in the kind of decks that involve keeping up with Standard-legal special lands or chase rares- especially if those cards have any application in non-rotating formats. If Brawl suits your fancy, godspeed, but it's turning out to be a format with problems unique to itself (being a singleton format with a small pool of cards means problem cards often have far fewer ways to answer them, and the ruleset is still being hammered out so stuff keeps changing in the format outside just card rotation) but I haven't seen much in the way of live Brawl play- almost anyone I know with interest in Brawl would rather just play EDH/Commander.
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Aug 10, 2018 07:58
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On the flipside once you have a decent baseline of mostly fetches and shocks you can probably just automatically subtract $~500 from the listed cost of any modern deck you're thinking about building, as long as you don't mind a little resleeving.
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Aug 10, 2018 08:50
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Magic is like, golf-tier expensive and pretending it isn't is ridiculous
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Aug 10, 2018 10:20
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Vando posted:Magic is like, golf-tier expensive and pretending it isn't is ridiculous Are magic tournaments expensive to enter? Like how much does a gp cost? Golf is a fun comparison though. I've seen guys with 20 year old garage sale sets that can ruin guys with 5k top of the line fitted sets. Can't really do that with magic. ilmucche fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Aug 10, 2018 |
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Aug 10, 2018 10:33
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Oddly enough, if I swing (heh) by the SA golf thread they're apparently all talking about stuff like trip reports, results, stories, pro players, golf courses, some etiquette chat... The kind of stuff I'd expect. Whereas this thread can't seem to go a page without getting into more card price and mtg finance chat.
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Aug 10, 2018 10:48
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that's cause golf already has the expectation of being a bougie hobby while magic is theoretically supposed to have a low price of entry
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Aug 10, 2018 12:50
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Also, there's no golf ball "reserved list"
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Aug 10, 2018 12:57
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mehall posted:Also, there's no golf ball "reserved list" There's a banned club list though. Not that it makes a difference to like 99% of golfers.
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Aug 10, 2018 13:03
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DangerDongs posted:This really should be the golden standard of a format. Sickening posted:Agreed. A weekend of legacy and modern is a great loving weekend. mcmagic posted:Lack of verity doesn't mean the games weren't great and highly interactive. It's been over a year since I played Legacy. Sleeved up UB Deaths Shadow to see how I liked it. I forgot how fun and interactive legacy could be. Rd 1 crushed miracles. Rd 2 got crushed by miracles. Rd 3 nail biter loss to fish, the third true name cast resolved. Rd 4 absolutely destroyed death and taxes. When you aren't worried about counters or burn this deck just flies. Anyway incredible fun. I'm glad there is finally a place close to me i can play at again.
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Aug 10, 2018 13:14
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ilmucche posted:What I learned from this is lands are way too loving expensive. WOTC could make a mint printing new duals, but they won't because they're scared of ghosts.
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Aug 10, 2018 13:16
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I'm still pretty new to Magic, can folks make a breakdown about their FAVORITE part of each format?
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Aug 10, 2018 13:23
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:WOTC could make a mint printing new duals, but they won't because they're scared of ghosts. Am I correct in thinking wotc sells absolutely no singles whatsoever?
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Aug 10, 2018 13:25
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ilmucche posted:Am I correct in thinking wotc sells absolutely no singles whatsoever? Closest is Jace’s spellbook and the old from the vault. Those are non-random cards that aren’t in a deck. They don’t just sell individual cards on demand.
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Aug 10, 2018 13:34
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Last weekend after GenCon I did a draft with the new core set at home with some friends, and it was a lot of fun for $10 per person. If I want to play brawl all I have to do is say "Hey guys I built some brawl decks lets play brawl" and off we go. There are like, two other people that I play with that have their own cards, and only one of them is a veteran of the 90's era, and when he brings stuff to play against all I need to say is "I'm gearing towards standard to keep things light and simple and cheap for now, please don't bring your crazy poo poo to stomp everyone else with" and there we go, now everybody in the room is on the same general competitive level. I'm sure over time I'll amass more cards, and I've already lucked into some expensive stuff, or maybe I'll splurge on something if I find a deal like those $10 M19 planeswalker decks at GenCon I gobbled up, but I'm still solidly "this is one game I play among many" and not "this is a hobby of mine." I guess my whole point was that Magic doesn't have to be this crazy expensive time consuming game. If you want to play a competitive deck in a format with big dollars in it against serious business players at sanctioned events, then yeah that changes things, but you don't HAVE to. If you just wanna chill with your bros and have a few beers while pretending to be wizards summoning dinosaurs and pirates to fight each other you can, like, totally do that.
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Aug 10, 2018 13:35
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