There is a spectrum haunting C-SPAM. I, on the contrary,

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GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

here�s my position

jokes about the DSA are really funny, and make sperglords really mad

# ? Aug 11, 2018 15:31

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# ? Jun 12, 2024 02:26

THS: Sep 15, 2017

not joining the dsa and trying to win over organizers with marxism is ultra leftism and lenin would poo poo down your throat for being on the sidelines of the only visible socialist movement

# ? Aug 11, 2018 15:43

THS: Sep 15, 2017

and yeah absolutely a lot of ultraleft people would rather stay irrelevant

# ? Aug 11, 2018 15:45

Kurnugia: Sep 2, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

apropos to nothing posted:

I think some some of the criticism comes from people getting put off by some of the stuff this post presupposes. a lot of people have been actively fighting for socialist politics for decades when it wasnt cool or hip but actually dangerous and difficult. lots of people online kinda act like the DSA is all there ever is or will be, and can be kind of disdainful of the fact that there are a lot of socialists with legit critiques of the DSA and other groups or strategies, who didn't become socialists the morning after trumps election. but theyre often dismissed by those same people who are recent converts and who have little if any experience with labor organizing or politics.

also the whole notion of volunteering or activism that is thrown around a lot is a really good window into the mindset of a lot of recently activated people, which is that organizing as socialists is often seen as something "good" or morally correct that you do thats equivalent to volunteering at a soup kitchen. its not though, being a revolutionary isnt volunteering or being active in your community, its like a second job that focuses on building power for working people, not personal affirmation.

fair enough, also I'm speaking as a foreigner to american politics so every word out of my mouth is rear end anyway. butt there is this tendency at least among the finnish leftists at least to dismiss whatever is the most socialist option available as far as established politics is considered for its flaws and past failures in favour of general apathy. which I personally at least find dangerous on some level.

e:fb

# ? Aug 11, 2018 15:46

apropos to nothing: Sep 5, 2003

Yandat posted:

not joining the dsa and trying to win over organizers with marxism is ultra leftism and lenin would poo poo down your throat for being on the sidelines of the only visible socialist movement

trying to win people to marxism is ultraleft? everyone who is critical of the DSA is on the sidelines of the socialist movement? this is the stuff I'm talking about.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 16:27

THS: Sep 15, 2017

apropos to nothing posted:

trying to win people to marxism is ultraleft? everyone who is critical of the DSA is on the sidelines of the socialist movement? this is the stuff I'm talking about.

not being where people are at

# ? Aug 11, 2018 16:37

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

even if we come at left politics with the view that there is no democratic road to socialism, there is still value in left organizing, because there does need to be such things in place for people to rally around once the revolution finally does arrive, however it may arrive.

the fact that people were already used to organizing into factory worker's unions and already had some semblance of leadership in place meant that it was that much easier to get them to turn out into the streets by the time the Bolsheviks made their move

that said, it's also true that you should keep holding people accountable and dragging them further to the left anyway

# ? Aug 11, 2018 16:55

GunnerJ: Aug 1, 2005; Do you think this is funny?

apropos to nothing posted:

I think some some of the criticism comes from people getting put off by some of the stuff this post presupposes. a lot of people have been actively fighting for socialist politics for decades when it wasnt cool or hip but actually dangerous and difficult. lots of people online kinda act like the DSA is all there ever is or will be, and can be kind of disdainful of the fact that there are a lot of socialists with legit critiques of the DSA and other groups or strategies, who didn't become socialists the morning after trumps election. but theyre often dismissed by those same people who are recent converts and who have little if any experience with labor organizing or politics.

also the whole notion of volunteering or activism that is thrown around a lot is a really good window into the mindset of a lot of recently activated people, which is that organizing as socialists is often seen as something "good" or morally correct that you do thats equivalent to volunteering at a soup kitchen. its not though, being a revolutionary isnt volunteering or being active in your community, its like a second job that focuses on building power for working people, not personal affirmation.

I hear this, and it's fair, but the flip side is that a lot of people who were "socialists before it was cool" have been grinding away with a particular method of doing politics that doesn't seem to have much to show for it, and then once DSA comes along, does things a different way, and actually sees growth and relevance from it, all these folks have to say is "No, that's liberal and wrong, our way is the right way," when that way has seen them relegated to the margins for decades. If they had modest goals, it would be one thing for them to have little to show for it, but they call themselves revolutionaries and aim at overthrowing the whole system in a sweeping action and simply can't credibly claim that they're even within squinting distance of doing that, but they're going to claim to have all the answers? Now they might be right, their way might be the right way in the long run, DSA's growth and success might be ephemeral, but it's pretty hard for them to make a convincing case, especially when their best arguments for their way seem to have been written a hundred years ago as commentary on a different country's politics.

I'll give a specific example: electoralism. Early in this thread, homex (iirc) made the point about PSL's third party ballot line that elections are just a way of getting attention and membership, the real fight is in the streets. To be honest, I agree, and I can't think of any better argument for it than DSA's recent electoral successes. I don't expect us to vote and elect people into socialism, but I see it as a useful way to make a name for ourselves and get people involved, and I can't argue with the results. But people aligned with PSL will say, "No, no, you're doing it wrong, you're tying yourself to a bourgeois party, which Lenin clearly cautioned against," and so I am to believe that the right way to do things is the way PSL has been doing it, with an irrelevant ballot line that has not gotten anything like the results that winning one Dem Party primary has gotten for DSA. So what to believe, an analysis of a different political system (Russia's) in another time (a century ago), or the plain facts of the political system of the USA in 2018, where third parties are loving irrelevant and if you want to make a name for yourself electorally to drum up membership and engagement, you have to deal with one of the two major parties? (And btw, it's not like there aren't plenty of examples of independent communist parties "going mainstream" and becoming tepid and liberal as gently caress.)

None of this means that there aren't valid critiques of DSA's candidates. Nor does it mean DSA members and chapters can't learn anything from SAlt or SPUSA or PSL. Nor does it mean that there's no risk of co-optation from getting involved with the Dem Party. There is, clearly from its history of demobilizing social movements, and I worry about it a lot. It's just that many of the critiques I see from the "before times" socialists you're talking about don't offer a credible alternative, they smack of bad faith trashing, and so they just seem to be more about tearing something down because it's succeeding where their methods have failed. I'm not some DSA purist, I don't think it's the only organization with any validity or whatever. If it fucks up, if the liberal side of it wins entirely, I'll probably leave it. But I just can't take some of these left critiques of it seriously when they come from what seems like a completely un-earned position of authority.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 16:56

double negative: Jul 7, 2003

apropos to nothing posted:

also the whole notion of volunteering or activism that is thrown around a lot is a really good window into the mindset of a lot of recently activated people, which is that organizing as socialists is often seen as something "good" or morally correct that you do thats equivalent to volunteering at a soup kitchen. its not though, being a revolutionary isnt volunteering or being active in your community, its like a second job that focuses on building power for working people, not personal affirmation.

the people are probably reformists, not revolutionaries, and organizing as socialist is indeed good, even if it's just a step.

not gonna speak for how people equate in their minds or what motivates them to get engaged, but america is politically retarded and if my otherwise apathetic, historically neglected community is genuinely starting to engage with socialist politics, i'm okay with grappling with plenty of bad opinions and beliefs to cultivate the good ones. we're talking about being active in your community, but you're referencing a whole series of conversations that are extremely online. obviously it's subjective, but when i talk with people irl, i don't see any of what you describe. lot of folks just have literally never thought about some of this poo poo, and so many of them are young people who just got jarred into being semi-politically conscious at all. so much of it, to me, is about meeting people where they're at, and as mentioned before, we're retarded

# ? Aug 11, 2018 16:57

HorrificExistence: Jun 25, 2017; by Athanatos

gradenko_2000 posted:

even if we come at left politics with the view that there is no democratic road to socialism, there is still value in left organizing, because there does need to be such things in place for people to rally around once the revolution finally does arrive, however it may arrive.

the fact that people were already used to organizing into factory worker's unions and already had some semblance of leadership in place meant that it was that much easier to get them to turn out into the streets by the time the Bolsheviks made their move

that said, it's also true that you should keep holding people accountable and dragging them further to the left anyway

The fact is that most Americans do not know what marxism is. i think if you took a poll on marx's nationality, 50% would say he was russian. People do not know about dialectical materialism or what socialism is outside of a welfare state. If DSA can introduce these ideas and move the overton window it has succeeded.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:00

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

tbf the people who constantly talk about Meeting People Where They're At at my chapter tend to be the online ultrawokes. most people I talk to at bars or whatever are in fact fairly radical, but don't know the terminology and so describe themselves as a progressive liberal because that's the most leftist word they know

But when it comes to meeting people where they're at I have never heard woke language outside Twitter or a DSA meeting where some 70 lb man is talking about it, that's for sure

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:06

Impermanent: Apr 1, 2010

dsa is not the socialist movement lmao. it's just a sect, and is in fact the most time-wasting of all types of sect - the one that papers over actual disagreement for "unity." But who is actually in charge of DSA? By and large, they are labor aristocrats, some children of the bourgeoise, some petite-bourgeois themselves, and a few (just for flavor) actual proles.

The vast majority of the people who piss all over themselves in a rage about criticizing the dsa as though it were the only american form of socialism in existence have never tried to organize their own workplace.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:37

double negative: Jul 7, 2003

Larry Parrish posted:

tbf the people who constantly talk about Meeting People Where They're At at my chapter tend to be the online ultrawokes. most people I talk to at bars or whatever are in fact fairly radical, but don't know the terminology and so describe themselves as a progressive liberal because that's the most leftist word they know

But when it comes to meeting people where they're at I have never heard woke language outside Twitter or a DSA meeting where some 70 lb man is talking about it, that's for sure

oh drat i said the wrong phrase . maybe it's too much time spent working in education, but yeah you missed me with all that.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:37

THS: Sep 15, 2017

Impermanent posted:

dsa is not the socialist movement lmao. it's just a sect, and is in fact the most time-wasting of all types of sect - the one that papers over actual disagreement for "unity." But who is actually in charge of DSA? By and large, they are labor aristocrats, some children of the bourgeoise, some petite-bourgeois themselves, and a few (just for flavor) actual proles.

The vast majority of the people who piss all over themselves in a rage about criticizing the dsa as though it were the only american form of socialism in existence have never tried to organize their own workplace.

youre right better join one if the trotskyist or maoist groups that are all emotionally traumatized from forty years of constant failure and retreat

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:39

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Impermanent posted:

and is in fact the most time-wasting of all types of sect

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:46

Impermanent: Apr 1, 2010

Yandat posted:

youre right better join one if the trotskyist or maoist groups that are all emotionally traumatized from forty years of constant failure and retreat

me saying the dsa is a waste of time does not automatically mean that joining a sex cult like psl or book club like the iso is better.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:53

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

*ears perk up* sex cult you say???

# ? Aug 11, 2018 17:58

Karl Barks: Jan 21, 1981

Impermanent posted:

me saying the dsa is a waste of time does not automatically mean that joining a sex cult like psl or book club like the iso is beter.

What should we do impermanent?

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:02

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

I just try to view everything as a vector to further radicalize and push things more left. Aside from shitposting I won't really denounce demsoc organizing even if I think a lot of it is a waste of time in the Grand Scheme, but the people I interact with who are doing those activities are open to good faith discussion and critique, and it's good to get inside their brain and stir up the agitation machine. If you're a revolutionary, M4A organizing is a win/win, either it succeeds and we get some type of strong or even weak M4A that materially benefits the masses and we can use it as a point to say "see? strong social systems are beneficial to the public, lets push further", or it fails and is utterly defeated in some manner that dashes the hearts and hopes of hundreds of thousands of people and we say "see? the system will not allow you to organize for your collective good, lets dismantle it"

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:15

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 16 days!)

This conversation is ridiculous off the bat, because before Impermanent came in nobody was saying "don't work with the DSA."

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:43

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Fair. I feel like a lot of the babby egg commies get riled easily by shitposting from more left than thou sources.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:49

Impermanent: Apr 1, 2010

To be fair to the dsa good work can be done with it, particularly if you avoid the internecine politics, but it's definitely not "the socialist movement." It's barely socialist and it's not moving much except slowly rightwards.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:55

THS: Sep 15, 2017

everyone who disagrees with me is a cop

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:55

MizPiz: May 29, 2013; by Athanatos

Everyone who agrees with me is a cop trying to win me over

# ? Aug 11, 2018 18:57

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Impermanent posted:

To be fair to the dsa good work can be done with it, particularly if you avoid the internecine politics, but it's definitely not "the socialist movement." It's barely socialist and it's not moving much except slowly rightwards.

The problem with big tents is liberals co-opt them yes

# ? Aug 11, 2018 19:05

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Yandat posted:

and yeah absolutely a lot of ultraleft people would rather stay irrelevant

you dont say

quote:

The right-wing intellectual is a knave, a conformist who refers to the mere existence of a given order as an argument for it, and mocks the Left on account of its utopian plans, which necessarily lead to catastrophe; while the left-wing intellectual is a fool, a court jester who publicly displays the lie of the existing order, but in a way which suspends the performative efficiency of his speech.

Today, after the fall of Socialism, the knave is the neoconservative advocate of the free market who cruelly rejects all forms of social solidarity as counterproductive sentimentalism, while the fool is a deconstructionist cultural critic who, by means of his ludic procedures destined to �subvert� the existing order, actually serves as its supplement.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 20:34

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
(and can't post for 16 days!)

just lmao at the idea of being anticapitalist as "ultra-left"

# ? Aug 11, 2018 20:36

THS: Sep 15, 2017

Trabisnikof posted:

you dont say

i tried to read that paragraph and didnt understand it. what does ludic mean

# ? Aug 11, 2018 20:38

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Yandat posted:

i tried to read that paragraph and didnt understand it. what does ludic mean

quote:

lu�dic
ˈl(y)o͞odik/Submit
adjectiveformal
showing spontaneous and undirected playfulness.

its saying the fool is the critic who because they're just criticizing the system because its enjoyable make themselves a useful tool to the system and the fact they're proclaiming they're subverting the system it doesnt make it true even if they're correctly labeling something bad

basically all the online scolds who wreck poo poo

# ? Aug 11, 2018 20:56

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

there are subjective conditions and objective conditions when it comes to revolutions. the subjective conditions are the ones an organization can control and alter through activism and work. objective ones are the forces outside any or all organizational control. you need both for success.

at the moment the objective conditions are ripe for limited-thinking reformism, but if those conditions change and the working class becomes more revolution-minded, you'd better hope the organization, or some organization, has been taking the correct revolutionary line. if not, we're boned. we miss our chance.

# ? Aug 11, 2018 23:27

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

*stomping boots on the ground and pounding desk*

CA-DRES CA-DRES CA-DRES CA-DRES

# ? Aug 12, 2018 00:20

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

i utilize praxis in my everyday life, which is why i dont pay back any of my credit cards & my phone number and address have changed like 4 times since the last time i had an address on file with them. go on, try to sue me, bitch. debt revolt ftw

# ? Aug 12, 2018 00:24

THS: Sep 15, 2017

Larry Parrish posted:

i utilize praxis in my everyday life, which is why i dont pay back any of my credit cards & my phone number and address have changed like 4 times since the last time i had an address on file with them. go on, try to sue me, bitch. debt revolt ftw

pretty sure ive sold out because i consolidated my student loans and am going to start paying them

the credit card debt from when i was 18, however - that expired or whatever so cool

# ? Aug 12, 2018 00:29

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

Mostly just hang out.

~~netflix~~ proleflix and chill 😊

# ? Aug 12, 2018 00:41

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Sheng-Ji Yang posted:

anyone who works against other leftists for being insufficiently left like the DSA or w/e in a world as absolutely and uncompromisingly dominated by neoliberal capitalism as we live in is wasting their energy and only sabotaging things. if we had an actual choice between FUll Communism and tepid social democracy obviously choose communism, but that is not the choice we have. even moderate social democracy in the United States is so beyond the pale that it's considered insane and radical. any sort of vague leftism is inherently revolutionary in our current situation. The best strategy is simply uniting behind the strongest available movement and pushing it hard until we actually reach a point that distinctions between different shades of the left actually matter. dividing an already smashed and weakened left over irrelevant 20th century doctrinal differences only furthers that irrelevance and weakness.

too be frank i think a lot of the extreme tankie left would rather be irrelevant and radical and not have to face the realities of actual politics

like, are figures like Corbyn, Sanders, Melenchon etc not perfect? absolutely. but the populist social democracy they represent is absolutely the strongest leftist reaction we've seen against neoliberalism since the collapse of the Soviet Union, and backbiting the success of them and the movements that have grown from them achieves nothing but weakening the left and strengthening capitalism.

actually, corbyn is perfect

# ? Aug 12, 2018 00:43