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kidkissinger posted:This is the thing, TLJ just struck me as being written to be intentionally adversarial towards it's audience. Hence Luke's weird rear end in a top hat version of Yoda act. Luke tossing the lightsaber was really dumb. That didn’t even seem in character even if he was cynical. It was like a big joke to troll the audience.
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Aug 13, 2018 23:57
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Wheat Loaf posted:This is why Episode IX will do badly. Yes you can. Episode 9 will make a lot of money because idiots who hate TLJ will run to the theater to see if JJ owned Rian or something and cheer when they’re deluded brain thinks this is the case.
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Aug 14, 2018 00:16
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Wheat Loaf posted:This is why Episode IX will do badly. Oh my loving God, shut up
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Aug 14, 2018 00:28
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My neighbor's dentist, who also works part-time for Nintendo, told me that Episode IX will have Idris Elba as 007.
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Aug 14, 2018 00:37
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As I was watching Episode VIII, at the moment Rey lifts the rubble from the cave mouth and the Resistence is resurrected/reborn, I said oh my god are we really doing this? It was like something from Pureflix. Which is when I realized, the reason so many feel a dissatisfaction with Star Wars 8 is that it isn't science fiction---it is a sermon, by way of a very plodding and exacerbated allegory. Moreover, what it's preaching is that boring old gnostic herecy---smoothing out the problematic elements of the gospels, insisting that Christ only pretended to die and actually teleported away to Tibet or whatever. This monophysite attempt to "correct the record" reemerges over the centuries because some people just can't bear awful truths---that Christ blew up a random tree because he had a bad day; that he was totally racist; that Anakin Skywalker was just some idiot, and so on. No, things have to "make sense"-----there can be a Chosen One who's totally woke, etc.
Harime Nui fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 00:40
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Dishwasher posted:This was a movie that people were ready to accept and celebrate no mater how bad and it pushed even 'those' limits. For all the issues, people walked out of the prequels as well as TFA and R1 pretty jazzed up on opening day. Walking out of the theater for TLJ was like walking out of a funeral. It was like I'd watched the midnight release of Transporter 9 with the sheer amount of indifference and "welp" around. It got an A cinema score which is surveying ppl coming out of the movie. personally i was psyched coming out of it and my theater seemed to enjoy it.
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Aug 14, 2018 00:43
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Gonz posted:My neighbor's dentist, who also works part-time for Nintendo, told me that Episode IX will have Idris Elba as 007. Star Wars 9 will star Idris Elba as Rey's grandson Mike Skywalker-Kenobi ft. Simon Pegg as C-3P0 and Matthew McCanaughey as Darth Maul; it will be a box office disappointment making only 999 million dollars and SMG will love it
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Aug 14, 2018 00:43
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I've heard that Donald Glover will be in Episode IX as Lando and Billy Dee Williams is actually going to be playing Lando's grandfather, Grando.
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Aug 14, 2018 00:53
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Wheat Loaf posted:I've heard that Donald Glover will be in Episode IX as Lando and Billy Dee Williams is actually going to be playing Lando's grandfather, Grando. No, but the live-action series features Lando’s father, Mando.
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Aug 14, 2018 01:12
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CelticPredator posted:Yes you can. Episode 9 will make a lot of money because idiots who hate TLJ will run to the theater to see if JJ owned Rian or something and cheer when they’re deluded brain thinks this is the case. You just can’t accept anyone not liking TLJ
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Aug 14, 2018 01:28
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Jerkface posted:It got an A cinema score which is surveying ppl coming out of the movie. personally i was psyched coming out of it and my theater seemed to enjoy it. have people even looked at the scores for other films when they say this
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Aug 14, 2018 01:51
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CelticPredator posted:Yes you can. Episode 9 will make a lot of money because idiots who hate TLJ will run to the theater to see if JJ owned Rian or something and cheer when they’re deluded brain thinks this is the case. There's this thing where Last Jedi defenses simultaneously yell that only a handful of people disliked the film, and that those same few (racists, sexists, trolls, Trump supporters, etc) were somehow able to make the toys flop, crash large scale data metrics, cut DVD sales in half, and make Solo flop. The problem for the franchise isn't primarily nerds getting into slapfights on the internet. At least they still care about the movies. The problem is the people who just... don't. Who went "Oh, yeah, Star Wars. It was... good?" when asked on exit, then never rewatched it and have no desire to. I've said before that the worst thing about the Last Jedi from a financial standpoint (as opposed to artistic) is how thoroughly it removed any hooks for the next film. There's no questions people want answered, no dramatic tension that needs to be resolved, no exciting conflicts. The prequels were worse movies, but they always had something to sell the next movie on. Episode IX has nothing.
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Aug 14, 2018 01:58
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Solo didn't need any help to flop.
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Aug 14, 2018 02:00
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sponges posted:You just can’t accept anyone not liking TLJ I accept. I just find the majority of them to be silly people.
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Aug 14, 2018 02:11
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:have people even looked at the scores for other films when they say this one could look at the prequels, tfa, and rogue one when trying to suggest people somehow felt differently or had a different mood leaving the theater than those films. (they all have As)
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Aug 14, 2018 02:16
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or perhaps the people in an opening weekend screening are more likely to say they liked a film regardless of whether they liked it or not given that we don't like thinking we paid money and got something bad in return even noted bad film revenge of the fallen got a B+
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Aug 14, 2018 02:48
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Jerkface posted:one could look at the prequels... (they all have As) Is this supposed to be an endorsement of your position? Lol
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Aug 14, 2018 03:46
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Speaking as someone who found the endless amounts of fan speculation surrounding TFA and TLJ super loving tedious to say the least IX having a relatively clean slate to work with is hella dope
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Aug 14, 2018 04:16
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:or perhaps the people in an opening weekend screening are more likely to say they liked a film regardless of whether they liked it or not given that we don't like thinking we paid money and got something bad in return ya revenge of the fallen rly killed that franchise
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Aug 14, 2018 04:26
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The plotting of the new trilogy is just a mess. It's a planned trilogy but the story was basically wrapped up in the second movie. All that's left is 'defeat the First Order' and 'kill Lando'.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:12
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Papercut posted:Is this supposed to be an endorsement of your position? Lol im responding to a point about audience enthusiasm for TLJ vs as cited, the other films & the prequels. It is supposed to be amazing that ppl left the theater and were more excited for the prequels than TLJ. TLJ had a higher cinemascore (A vs -A) than the prequels, but they were still all pretty well liked by audiences. I honestly dont get the "dont care what happens next" sentiment that many TLJ detractors have. I love that Kylo is now the supreme leader and i want to see more of that. An organization as ruthless and destructive as the Empire in the hands of a hot head & his sniveling lt. Adam Driver & Daisy Ridley's bits of TLJ were my favorite and them as connected figures on opposite ends of a star war is cool. I wanna see Luke's force ghost, how the resistance is going to rebuild, Kylo's redemption, how that defeats the FO, etc
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Aug 14, 2018 05:34
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The prequels getting enthusiastic exit scores is an indication that exit scores are not a metric that is useful for much more than demonstrating the sunk cost fallacy.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:52
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Cinemascore isn't necessarily a useful way to look at a movie and if you want an example of why have a look at the films that have got an F.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:56
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Cross-Section posted:Speaking as someone who found the endless amounts of fan speculation surrounding TFA and TLJ super loving tedious to say the least I'm not sure I understand what you mean by clean slate here. Speculation tends to be caused by clean slates. When the audience doesn't know what's going to happen, they try to guess. Hence wild speculation about the Force Awakens when all we knew was "it's a sequel". The Last Jedi leaves a good deal done and settled. We know who Snoke and Rey were (nobody important), what Snoke's going to be doing in episode IX (pushing daisies), what the conflict is in the next one (the First Order: Still assholes), and if Rey can beat Kylo (easily). The narrative is less a clean slate and more a Sudoku puzzle with almost every answer filled in.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:59
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chiasaur11 posted:The Last Jedi leaves a good deal done and settled. We know who Snoke and Rey were (nobody important), what Snoke's going to be doing in episode IX (pushing daisies), what the conflict is in the next one (the First Order: Still assholes), and if Rey can beat Kylo (easily). The narrative is less a clean slate and more a Sudoku puzzle with almost every answer filled in. *yoda voice* so certain are you also nah people wondering endlessly about who hosed who to have Rey doesn’t so much indicate a blank slate as it does highlight critical analysis in the fandom railroaded into the same motifs again and again; that’s what’s so refreshing about the lead-up to IX, nearly all of that worn baggage is gone.
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Aug 14, 2018 06:34
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Solo didn't need any help to flop. I actually think solo is a better movie than TLJ. Actually both it and Roue One are better than the main “sequel trilogy”
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Aug 14, 2018 07:04
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solo's droid revolutionary should've been in the ST. they've failed at making bb-8 interesting, fun to watch or memorable in any way, even taking r2-d2 out of the way to try and make it easier on their new, cuter version.
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Aug 14, 2018 07:44
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The whole "revolution by droids" angle would have been a more interesting story but I am reasonably confident it would have provoked more grousing than anything in TLJ (whether because it's not "traditional" enough for Star Wars, because the droids would inevitably be portrayed as the bad guys/the outcome wouldn't be "revolutionary enough", because it's not light side vs dark side or whatever) so I'm not surprised they didn't go for it.
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Aug 14, 2018 08:28
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Wheat Loaf posted:The whole "revolution by droids" angle would have been a more interesting story but I am reasonably confident it would have provoked more grousing than anything in TLJ (whether because it's not "traditional" enough for Star Wars, because the droids would inevitably be portrayed as the bad guys/the outcome wouldn't be "revolutionary enough", because it's not light side vs dark side or whatever) so I'm not surprised they didn't go for it. I’m pretty sure droid revolutions have been done before in Star Wars or at least mentioned in the old EU. I think zome of the books or games had that
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Aug 14, 2018 10:14
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Literally all TLJ had to do to lay some sort of interesting groundwork for the next film was to follow through on the thematic and narrative elements it had established, and have Rey and Kylo join forces as some sort of middle-way, neither-dark-nor-light Jedi. Rey sees some hope for redemption in Kylo, Kylo apparently remains wavering in his commitment to the dark and asks Rey to teach him to be good. There: something new and exciting for the next film to explore. TLJ already went up to the doorstep of doing this, only to then turn and run back out into the night, making GBS threads itself as it went.
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Aug 14, 2018 10:19
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Top Gun posted:I’m pretty sure droid revolutions have been done before in Star Wars or at least mentioned in the old EU. I think zome of the books or games had that It had been background detail that got maybe a paragraph in one or two of the tie-in guidebooks (the Essential Guide to Droids, for instance) but it hadn't been in any of the actual stories that I recall.
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Aug 14, 2018 10:26
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all Rian Johnson had to do to make a good film was to shoot my awful fanfiction
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Aug 14, 2018 11:41
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Eh, the complaints about the ST, even SMG's, just sound like the Prequel complaints again, which just sounded like the complaints about Final Fantasy 7 (which was my formative exposure to this sort of thing). I kind of think Snoke needed to die. There wasn't anything interesting to do involving an old evil Force guy who ran the show and manipulated things behind the scenes that wasn't just a retread of the Emperor. Now we get to see what happens if Luke took Vader's offer and pulled a coup. If that direction isn't interesting to you, you weren't going to be won over by something else. More to the point, a big bad whose defeat solves everything was one of the elements of the OT which is essentially a comfortable lie. Retelling that lie after the prequels showed that the Emperor was actually empowered by the Jedi themselves would be trying to repeat the lie after having told the audience what it was. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 16:58
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I think the entire ST is trash. But what I did enjoy was Luke's EU exploits basically being destroyed and TLJ being about the fallout. I think people were watching the film looking for the Luke that could destroy Star Destroyers, armies, and stars with the power of his mind. Basically a walking force nuke who did whatever the gently caress he wanted to do. Those EU stories are the stories Rey heard and that is what she was looking for in finding him. "Why don't you just nuke everything so we can all get on with our lives?". Even Anakin thought like that. "Nothing can kill a [goddamn] Jedi". Luke was never 'that' powerful in the OT. But being the pilot who killed the Death Star, being the only Jedi openly working with the rebellion, and being on the front lines and being pretty alright (he 'did' take out an AT-AT by himself, I'm sure someone saw it and thought it was the baddest-rear end poo poo ever done) is enough to get people talking. Nevermind being known as the guy who walked into the throne room of the Emperor and Vader and walked out with both dead. Embellishments after the war by people who didn't know that Luke was basically only about 10% stronger than your average guy was a given. His 'connections' saved the war, not his might. His post-ROTJ powers in the EU, while substantial and ridiculous, are basically non-canon. In other words, just Legends (tee hee!) people passed around in bedtime stories. Luke's first real conversation post-OT is basically "lol nope, I can't kill an entire galactic army with a sword are you on drugs? I'm as scared about all this drat fascism as you are I'm chilling out and suggest you do too". He realized people needed the legends canon more than the actual guy (who wasn't gonna be nearly as impressive, charismatic, or powerful as people hoped with 30 years of crazy fake tales and embellishments behind him) and decided to go back to being more of a useful inspirational idea, which is what he was during the OT. As far as those kids at the end knew, Luke saved the Resistance by doing some crazy broken rear end force poo poo and killing, like, a billion dudes before dying heroically on his sword. And that'll be hella useful for recruitment drives. TL:DR, TLJ destroyed Luke, but let you know that the god-like Luke people were clamoring for was never actually a 'thing'. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 14, 2018 |
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Aug 14, 2018 19:52
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ozza posted:Literally all TLJ had to do to lay some sort of interesting groundwork for the next film was to follow through on the thematic and narrative elements it had established, and have Rey and Kylo join forces as some sort of middle-way, neither-dark-nor-light Jedi. Rey sees some hope for redemption in Kylo, Kylo apparently remains wavering in his commitment to the dark and asks Rey to teach him to be good. There: something new and exciting for the next film to explore. TLJ already went up to the doorstep of doing this, only to then turn and run back out into the night, making GBS threads itself as it went. Holy poo poo! Someone hire this man to write all future Star Wars films! This is genius material! cargohills posted:all Rian Johnson had to do to make a good film was to shoot my awful fanfiction And this is what it all boils down to. Almost every complaint about TLJ begins and ends with the fact that it wasn't exactly what the person had in mind. Tough poo poo, time to grow up.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:06
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GOD drat YOU RIAN JOHNSON! ALL YOU HAD TO DO WAS SAY THAT SNOKE WAS MACE WINDU.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:08
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Preston Waters posted:
Yeah! How dare people want a movie with narrative consistency, a sensical plot, and main characters with actual characterization!
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Aug 14, 2018 20:13
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Preston Waters posted:And this is what it all boils down to. Almost every complaint about TLJ begins and ends with the fact that it wasn't exactly what the person had in mind. Tough poo poo, time to grow up. "This movie was poorly written" "GROW THE gently caress UP SNOWFLAKE"
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Aug 14, 2018 20:16
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Top Gun posted:I actually think solo is a better movie than TLJ. Actually both it and Roue One are better than the main “sequel trilogy” This
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Aug 14, 2018 20:16
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Luke's defining character trait in the OT, and the thing that makes him more powerful than Vader or the Emperor, is his faith in the humanity of his father. The Jedi poo poo is great and all, but what actually brings down the Empire is his rejection of the idea that Vader was beyond hope. I don't like TLJ because it tosses out that defining characteristic, which for me was also the defining moral of the OT, and it's not clear to me that it did it for any particularly important reason. I don't care if that's childish or not, it's one of the big things I liked about SW.
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Aug 14, 2018 20:19
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