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Free Triangle posted:Can someone give me some advice on shielding swordmages? Their mark mechanic looks good but almost all their powers look awful compared to fighters. You have better access to AOEs than most fighters, and bizarrely get the most mileage out of shielding aegis by laying it on an enemy and then ignoring them/forcing them to cross the map to come get you. You are Int-based so your AC is always good-to-great. Even a shielding swordmage has good mobility options, usually via teleportation. Hit points gud. You qualify into arcane themes and paragon paths.
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Aug 3, 2018 02:11
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Kai Tave posted:Mordenkainen's Magnificent Macguffinarium or whatever it's called has some, though I can't remember if they're any good or not. don't use this, it's a pile of poo poo. This is the late Essentials book that has the healing potions that work even without Surges
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Aug 3, 2018 02:18
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gradenko_2000 posted:don't use this, it's a pile of poo poo. This is the late Essentials book that has the healing potions that work even without Surges Okay yeah, I never actually owned it so I didn't want to simply assume it was bad even though it was post-E (blame Heroes of the Feywild for being actually decent).
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Aug 3, 2018 02:22
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Mordenkainen's is basically where Mearls dropped even the least bits of pretense and just crammed in as many 3.5 style items and rules as he could. Any time I saw an item in the builder that had more flavour text than statblock, and a lovely overpowered statblock as well, I knew right where it was from. e: a bunch of them were just updates of existing 4E items that had carried over from earlier editions, named stuff like "true  decanter of endless water"
My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 06:41
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My Lovely Horse posted:Mordenkainen's is basically where Mearls dropped even the least bits of pretense and just crammed in as many 3.5 style items and rules as he could. Any time I saw an item in the builder that had more flavour text than statblock, and a lovely overpowered statblock as well, I knew right where it was from. God that hosed me off. TRUE portable hole. If oyu want it to be what it was in 3.5, call it what it was in 3.5. Portable ROOM.
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Aug 3, 2018 09:14
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I'm pretty certain they could just barely keep him from naming the Essentials classes Proper Wizard and Fighter As He's Supposed To Be, or the whole line It's Your Dungeons & Dragons Again.
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Aug 3, 2018 09:40
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It’s My Dungeons & Dragons Again.
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Aug 3, 2018 12:36
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My Lovely Horse posted:I'm pretty certain they could just barely keep him from naming the Essentials classes Proper Wizard and Fighter As He's Supposed To Be, or the whole line It's Your Dungeons & Dragons Again. Deity and Meatwall
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Aug 3, 2018 13:55
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I gotta admit, the TRUE portable hole is just so hilariously petty I can't help but smile. That is just adorable.
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Aug 3, 2018 15:33
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Gharbad the Weak posted:I gotta admit, the TRUE portable hole is just so hilariously petty I can't help but smile. That is just adorable. It always makes me smile because it reminds me that Mearls well and truly became angry at 4e. At some point, the game's sheer existence made him actually upset - and he helped make it in the first place.
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Aug 3, 2018 16:23
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Also 4E's portable hole was cooler than the "True Portable hole" Put an actual hole y ou can reach through into anything" is just conceptually neater than "Bag with way too much storage"
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Aug 3, 2018 16:25
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ProfessorCirno posted:It always makes me smile because it reminds me that Mearls well and truly became angry at 4e. At some point, the game's sheer existence made him actually upset - and he helped make it in the first place. Which is weird when you look at all those articles he wrote at the start of 4e's development where he talked about how class and race balance was important. It's like at some point around the time he got put in charge as the sole developer he got a bowling ball dropped on his head and DARE YOU ENTER MY MAGICAL REALM!?
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Aug 3, 2018 16:29
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Kurieg posted:Which is weird when you look at all those articles he wrote at the start of 4e's development where he talked about how class and race balance was important. Mearls is slimy as gently caress so it's hard to tell how much of that was him being honest, but I also remember that in the start of 4e, they had problems where unnamed devs would constantly try to make wizards stronger then other classes, and I remember the terrible adventures he made for it, and how even when he did try to make 4e as 4e, he failed miserably, and frankly, at the end of the day, he never, ever actually understood how 4e worked. So yeah, maybe he does think balance is important, but he has no idea how to do that. There are people who think balance is important and go on to claim that 3.x was totally well balanced. But what I think it really was, is that...he fell to the edition wars. Mearls sees himself as an AD&D fan to his loving soul, and when the OSR happened and condemned 4e, my best wager is that he went along with it immediately. He saw his AD&D fandom hate him and the game he made, and instantly joined their side.
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Aug 3, 2018 16:51
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See, if you put a wizard on one side, and all the other classes together on the other, then
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Aug 3, 2018 16:53
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Kurieg posted:Which is weird when you look at all those articles he wrote at the start of 4e's development where he talked about how class and race balance was important. He wrote the exact same articles at the start of 5e. It was all about how Fighters were being modelled after Beowulf and Cu Chulainn and Gilgamesh and would have ludicrously powerful abilities to compete with Wizards. Then they got whittled away to 'attack a bit more often, maybe trip a dude sometimes' and all the formerly martial-only abilities like Quarry got turned into spells. Except for Sneak Attack I guess. Watching Critical Role has really brought this home for me. Their Barbarian is a loving TANK. He can absorb ludicrous amounts of damage. But pit him against any spellcaster or anything that can fly and he's FUUUUUUCKED; the final boss fight was won ENTIRELY with Counterspell, and honestly the DM could trivially have killed the party if he'd wanted to. thespaceinvader fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 17:33
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So I'm planning to run the Pathfinder AP "Kingmaker" for some friends of mine, and it's likely that it'll be in 4e. Like gently caress I'm ever GMing Pathfinder again. I dunno if it makes more sense to ask in this thread or the PF thread for advice on porting things over. The main thing that jumps out to me is restricting the full benefits of extended rests to proper settlements. But I'm really not sure what to do with the settlement/country building stuff; in its base form, it's the sort of thing that's kind of fun the first time you try it but gets tedious as the game goes on, and the math for it never really worked. I might just abstract a lot of that and put it down to some skill challenges, but someone earlier in this thread mentioned An Echo, Resounding as an example of domain building/management done right - is that appropriate for my needs?
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Aug 8, 2018 03:32
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I haven't read that AP in particular, but Pathfinder APs tend to have a bunch of pointless encounters that can be cut since they only exist to make sure players get the correct amount of EXP. Generally I would focus on NPC personalities and stories, since that's the strength of Paizo's APs. The rest can be changed a ton, including the overarching plot.
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Aug 8, 2018 03:50
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The Crotch posted:The main thing that jumps out to me is restricting the full benefits of extended rests to proper settlements. I really wouldn't bother. I don't think I've ever been in a 4E group that used their daily resources enough, much less too much
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Aug 8, 2018 04:45
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Eh, a lot of Kingmaker encounters - from what I've played of it, at least - are really spread out time-wise, and I'd like to have some sort of mechanical incentive to go back to the trading post from time to time, anyway.
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Aug 8, 2018 05:30
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ProfessorCirno posted:Mearls is slimy as gently caress so it's hard to tell how much of that was him being honest, but I also remember that in the start of 4e, they had problems where unnamed devs would constantly try to make wizards stronger then other classes, and I remember the terrible adventures he made for it, and how even when he did try to make 4e as 4e, he failed miserably, and frankly, at the end of the day, he never, ever actually understood how 4e worked. So yeah, maybe he does think balance is important, but he has no idea how to do that. There are people who think balance is important and go on to claim that 3.x was totally well balanced. If writing board games for WotC wasn't an absolute meat grinder (the number of designers who passed through and now have nothing to do with the product since the start of 3E is staggering) you would probably get some continuity and improvement, instead of a series of sharp left turns whenever a new guy ascends.
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Aug 8, 2018 06:11
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I've spent most of today making characters in the CB, for a theoretical future game with my mainly 5e group. I'm doing two of each non-Essentials class; this mostly works to get a "standard" version of a class, and an alternate but similar one. Luke sword and board Fighter versus a two hander Fighter. This does kind of break down with classes Rogue and Warlock, where you can't really have two different styles, it seems. That said, is there a sort of tier list of complexity by class? Wizard and some of the others can be very clunky looking for people that have never played 4e. As well, any recommendations for builds that are simple enough to grasp while also showing off the system? Current builds: Cleric - Strength Melee, Implement Ranged (options seem overwhelming) Fighter - SnB, Two Hander Paladin - SnB, Halfling Dex (I'm kind of lost here but loved the idea of a Halfling Paladin) Ranger - Bow, TWF Rogue - Sneaky stabby, hand crossbow (I can't think of how to differentiate a Brutal Scoundrel from a regular Rogue properly) Warlock - Infernal, Star Pact (Simple if not all that different) Warlord - Melee Str/Int, Archer Str/Wis (I think, I'm on mobile currently and might have the stats mixed up) Wizard - Wand Controller, Imposition DPS (I don't even know where to start) I plan to do PHB2 classes, as well as Monk. I'm not terribly worried about optimizing at this stage, just enough that everyone functions properly.
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Aug 14, 2018 04:51
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For the Warlock I'd go Infernal and Fey. They're based on different ability scores where the Star Pact is based on CHA and CON, which distinguishes them from each other and makes them a bit easier to set up. You also get a nice split between a damage build (Infernal) and a control build (Fey). And lastly, Infernal and Fey show off two very different flavours where Infernal and Star are kind of on the same side of the alignment spectrum. I haven't played a lot of Wizards but my understanding is that wands are for blasting enemies with fireballs and orbs are for control zones and save ends effects, which would be the opposite way to your setup. Preemptive tip for Bards: Melee Valor Bard and implement-based ranged Cunning Bard.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:58
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Most of the 'clunky' classes are the ones where you gotta pay attention to keywords for class features, like that one Fighter build that wants Invigorating powers or Rogues that want Rattling. Paladins also have their own hot mess with Sanctions and stuff. In general I would say that any class can be simple if you're picking the powers for the player and you're picking the powers that have all their relevant bonuses bundled on the power card so they don't have to cross reference.
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Aug 14, 2018 06:04
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Scattershot recommendations: 1. Consider a dual-wield and/or grapple fighter for better differentiation from the sword-and-board. 2. Is the halfling paladin holding a longsword in two hands? Because my assumption would be that he'd go war pick and shield, leaving you in need of a two-hander. In that case, I'd recommend half-orc for Blessed Strength. 3. Half-orc rapier rogue vs dex/cha sling or hand crossbow build? 4. You get a bit more contrast out of infernal pact vs fey, I think. 5. Ranged warlords are int and/or wis. 6. Imposition debuffer vs tome of readiness genasi blaster? Nobody likes wands. EDIT: Also, druids can be awkward for newer players on account of... everything to do with wild shape. Besides that, things like vestigelock and cosmic sorcerer stand out.
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Aug 14, 2018 06:08
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I've spent most of today making characters in the CB, for a theoretical future game with my mainly 5e group. I'm doing two of each non-Essentials class; this mostly works to get a "standard" version of a class, and an alternate but similar one. Luke sword and board Fighter versus a two hander Fighter. For the Fighter, maybe consider Brawler, since that's very unique to 4e? Similarly, Lazylord and Bravuralord are also kinda iconic and might be worth consideration.
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Aug 14, 2018 13:10
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Definitely offer a Brawler Fighter.
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Aug 14, 2018 16:02
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It's also worth noting that 4e's design makes it so the same flavour appears on multiple classes. Like both "Druids" in my current campaign are Wardens (Wildblood and Stormblood) To that end, Avenger and Paladin have almost identical flavour.
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Aug 14, 2018 16:56
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I always thought of avengers as "barbarians, but het up about God".
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Aug 14, 2018 17:04
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Avengers, Paladins, Invokers, and Clerics are all 'god warrior'. Fighters, Rangers, Warlords, and Rogues are all 'warrior warrior'. Druids, Wardens, Shamans, and Barbarians are all 'nature warrior'. Everything else is Wizards.
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Aug 14, 2018 17:37
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These are all good notes and I'll be going over the ones I've already made to make adjustments. For the record, the Halfling Paladin used a Rapier and a Light Shield. Then I realized that Paladins are still Defenders that need people to attack them, so the whole build kind of lost focus.
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Aug 14, 2018 17:59
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Admiral Joeslop posted:These are all good notes and I'll be going over the ones I've already made to make adjustments. For the record, the Halfling Paladin used a Rapier and a Light Shield. Then I realized that Paladins are still Defenders that need people to attack them, so the whole build kind of lost focus. I haven't played a Paladin, but usually defenders work by punishing foes for not attacking them. Though in order to do that, high defenses are almost mandatory. This is more just a GM note for you to not feel beholden to a mark if the punishment isn't bad enough to sstop you.
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Aug 14, 2018 18:10
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A friend of mine played a paladin who neglected his attack stat and pumped WIS for increased healing ability. But I don't recommend that as a pregen, even if he really did come into his own... eventually, at level 8 or so.
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Aug 14, 2018 18:48
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My Lovely Horse posted:A friend of mine played a paladin who neglected his attack stat and pumped WIS for increased healing ability. But I don't recommend that as a pregen, even if he really did come into his own... eventually, at level 8 or so. That's a real bad paladin
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Aug 14, 2018 20:06
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I remember that discussion! He refused to play a leader class instead, right?
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Aug 14, 2018 20:13
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He did, yes. He really did contribute quite well to fights by the end, but I suspect the only reason it worked out was because he was the sixth wheel in the party and was free to just do whatever.
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Aug 14, 2018 21:31
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The Crotch posted:I always thought of avengers as "barbarians, but het up about God". Moriatti posted:To that end, Avenger and Paladin have almost identical flavour. The way I've described the difference to my players before is like this: Let's say your local temple gets attacked by baddies in the middle of the night. The clerics are going to make sure everyone is okay, they're going to focus on healing the injured and keeping everyone calm about what happened. The paladins are going to set up a watch around the temple, come up with a plan to find out who did this and whether they should go after them or not, and in the morning will execute said plan. The avengers are the crazy cultists that are going to pick up their weapons and scream "OH HELL NO" and take off in the middle of the night to bring divine retribution to the assholes that dared attack their holy ground. 
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Aug 14, 2018 22:15
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I don't really see a tremendous difference between paladins and avengers flavor-wise, outside of one being more oriented towards Assassin's Creed than the other. Paladins, avengers, clerics, and invokers could all live in a temple together (and form a divine party, which is cool).
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Aug 14, 2018 22:23
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I don't really see a tremendous difference between paladins and avengers flavor-wise, outside of one being more oriented towards Assassin's Creed than the other. Paladins, avengers, clerics, and invokers could all live in a temple together (and form a divine party, which is cool). And poor runepriests get left out in the cold.  I like runepriests. Pity they came around so late in the game that they didn't really have much time to be built on.
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Aug 14, 2018 22:49
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Vandar posted:And poor runepriests get left out in the cold. It's a pity they have nothing but mechanics distinguishing them from Clerics is what it is. They're Clerics.
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Aug 14, 2018 22:50
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Vandar posted:And poor runepriests get left out in the cold. They can play too, I just forget about them often because I've never been in a group with a runepriest that I can remember.
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Aug 14, 2018 22:50
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