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Whoops, quote isn't edit. Man, and it's the top of the page, too. 
Viscardus fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Aug 13, 2018 |
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Aug 13, 2018 06:05
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Viscardus posted:It's not uniquely Israeli, but it is worth noting that electoral systems can have a huge impact, and this actually makes the Israeli example a little more egregious than it looks at first glance. The US and other first-past-the-post countries (UK, Canada, etc.) tend to struggle more with political representation for women due to the way candidates are selected and then run for election. The underlying sexism is still there, of course, but it's worsened by the nature of the process. Party list systems, on the other hand, tend to make it easier for women to be represented, because the party can just decide to include a certain percentage of women (or even mandate a 50/50 split in some cases). I agree with all of this, but I want to emphasize that, regardless of the underlying causes, the results are the same - women are underrepresented in the legislature and government. This has all sorts of nasty effects when it comes to policies relating to women's issues like abortion, sexual harassment, the wage gap, etc. I think it's a mistake to dismiss this by just going "oh, it's just the way things are with FPTP  ", as if the fact that, when it comes to choosing an individual representative, most prefer an old man isn't damning in itself. At least the younger generation of western politicians is better in this regard, so it should hopefully be less of a problem in the future.
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Aug 13, 2018 20:13
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I agree with all of this, but I want to emphasize that, regardless of the underlying causes, the results are the same - women are underrepresented in the legislature and government. This has all sorts of nasty effects when it comes to policies relating to women's issues like abortion, sexual harassment, the wage gap, etc. I think it's a mistake to dismiss this by just going "oh, it's just the way things are with FPTP I'm not dismissing anything, though. I specifically said that the underlying problem is the same either way. I was just explaining why the problem in Israel is even worse than it looks if you only compare it to FPTP countries.
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Aug 13, 2018 21:31
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Editor of The Atlantic Magazine, Peter Beinart, was detained at Ben Gurion Airport in Israel over his political statements involving Israel before he was eventually released. Apparently this was done without the authorization of Bibi (supposedly), who has since apologized to Beinart https://twitter.com/PeterBeinart/status/1029000867477970944
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Aug 14, 2018 01:27
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FlamingLiberal posted:Editor of The Atlantic Magazine, Peter Beinart, was detained at Ben Gurion Airport in Israel over his political statements involving Israel before he was eventually released. Apparently this was done without the authorization of Bibi (supposedly), who has since apologized to Beinart I doubt Shin Bet runs every single target by the Prime Minister beforehand.
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Aug 14, 2018 02:00
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Viscardus posted:I'm not dismissing anything, though. I specifically said that the underlying problem is the same either way. I was just explaining why the problem in Israel is even worse than it looks if you only compare it to FPTP countries. The UK is at 32%, Australia is at 29%, and Canada is at 26%, so Israel isn't really an outlier at 28%. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/sg.gen.parl.zs?year_high_desc=true
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Aug 14, 2018 02:55
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qkkl posted:The UK is at 32%, Australia is at 29%, and Canada is at 26%, so Israel isn't really an outlier at 28%. Those are FPTP. Israel isn’t. That’s what this whole discussion was about.
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Aug 14, 2018 03:32
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Darth Walrus posted:Those are FPTP. Israel isn’t. That’s what this whole discussion was about. The Netherlands` House of Representatives (the one out of the two chambers that can propose laws) is national proportional, and has 38.7% women.
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Aug 14, 2018 03:41
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Darth Walrus posted:Those are FPTP. Israel isn’t. That’s what this whole discussion was about. My bad, I falsely thought that parliamentary systems were automatically not FPTP. That takes the UK and Canada off the list, but Australia is not FPTP and is at 29%, and Ireland is not FPTP and is at 22%.
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Aug 14, 2018 03:57
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qkkl posted:My bad, I falsely thought that parliamentary systems were automatically not FPTP. That takes the UK and Canada off the list, but Australia is not FPTP and is at 29%, and Ireland is not FPTP and is at 22%. The comparison was FPTP to Party List. There are, of course, other systems, most of which tend to represent women better than FPTP but worse than list-based systems. Neither Australia nor Ireland use party lists, and both of their systems have essentially the same issues as FPTP in this particular regard (although they're better in other ways). I don't really want to belabour this point because it's a lot of words on a fairly minor issue (the difference in electoral systems, not the under-representation of women more generally), but I do think it's relevant that Israel appears to be worse at representing women than almost every other (wealthy, "Western") country that uses a similar electoral system. I would be curious to know whether any of the parties in Israel actually have policies around a certain proportion of their candidates being women, if anyone knows.
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Aug 14, 2018 05:37
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Viscardus posted:The comparison was FPTP to Party List. There are, of course, other systems, most of which tend to represent women better than FPTP but worse than list-based systems. Neither Australia nor Ireland use party lists, and both of their systems have essentially the same issues as FPTP in this particular regard (although they're better in other ways). I don't really want to belabour this point because it's a lot of words on a fairly minor issue (the difference in electoral systems, not the under-representation of women more generally), but I do think it's relevant that Israel appears to be worse at representing women than almost every other (wealthy, "Western") country that uses a similar electoral system. Among 1st world countries that use Party List it looks like Israel is below every Western country, with the closest being Austria at 31%. Interestingly South Korea and Japan also use Party List, and their proportions of women in the legislature are an abysmal 17% and 9%, respectively.
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Aug 14, 2018 06:54
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There's this: http://archive.ipu.org/wmn-e/classif.htm Rwanda, Cuba, and Bolivia have a slight majority of women in Parliament and are at the top of the list.
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Aug 14, 2018 11:21
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Viscardus posted:The comparison was FPTP to Party List. There are, of course, other systems, most of which tend to represent women better than FPTP but worse than list-based systems. Neither Australia nor Ireland use party lists, and both of their systems have essentially the same issues as FPTP in this particular regard (although they're better in other ways). I don't really want to belabour this point because it's a lot of words on a fairly minor issue (the difference in electoral systems, not the under-representation of women more generally), but I do think it's relevant that Israel appears to be worse at representing women than almost every other (wealthy, "Western") country that uses a similar electoral system. Meretz specifically has a policy where two of each five places on the list are set up by gender. Meaning that if 3 men were elected, the other 2 will be women, and vice versa. Not sure how that works technically, but in practice they're the only party whose list is half women (everyone else is lower, down to the Haredi parties which have zero women).
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Aug 14, 2018 13:23
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https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/1029448371646423041 I thought the IDF were supposed to be good at propaganda.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:30
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The disingenuousness is so strong, you could build a space elevator with it.
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Aug 15, 2018 17:40
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Not Operator posted:https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/1029448371646423041 They're getting fat and lazy.
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Aug 15, 2018 18:11
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Not Operator posted:https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/1029448371646423041 Since the arson balloons aren't actually hurting anyone and are just burning empty unpopulated land neo one even lives near, the IDF has had trouble presenting it as some grievous, horrendous crime. They need to present it as awful, horrible terrorism, but there's literally zero victims to point to - they can't even break out the "the poor civilians live in fear of a missile coming down on their head" line because the arson attacks have just been that ineffectual. So the IDF has to go to some pretty extreme lengths to propagandize against it. They're showing pictures of dead animals because none of the fires have gotten anywhere near a human.
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Aug 15, 2018 21:43
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This works just fine for me. Animals are way more sympathetic than people, especially cool birds. Their innocent victim status is unassailable by any ideology. There is no such thing as a terrorist turtle or a fascist armadillo. Also, the idea of stopping arson wildfires actually seems like a hopeful, achievable goal that a person could be a part of, and proud of. As opposed to, say, I/P peace, which seems impossible and feels depressing. If anyone needs to work on the propaganda, it's Hamas (which, fairly or not, is conflated with all Palestinians, because they were elected). UNICEF sends sponsors pictures of happy kids, with fun pictures and write-ups, not dead ones buried under rubble. No one wants to see that. You'd think it would garner sympathy, but not if it's contrasted with a picture of a toddler wearing a bomb vest and a green headband. Israel doesn't have to brand Palestinians at terrorists when it's done for them, so expertly, for free. Of course, Israel is the target of plenty of negative propaganda, but at least they're smart enough not to produce it themselves. P should re-brand as Ghandi-like, nonviolent figures that just stoicly roll with indignities. Still do the fighting on the side, but the propaganda would only ever show the nonviolent philosopher-monk characters. Act like they have dignity and value, and spectators will want the honorable veneer will rub off on them. Act like they are right and know it, without fighting, and someone might just believe it. Act like they're strong and attractive, not vicious and desperate; people only like underdogs that will win. Defs don't murder a cool bird, and have everyone hate you regardless of the context.
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Aug 15, 2018 22:51
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Preen Dog posted:P should re-brand as Ghandi-like, nonviolent figures that just stoicly roll with indignities. Still do the fighting on the side, but the propaganda would only ever show the nonviolent philosopher-monk characters. Act like they have dignity and value, and spectators will want the honorable veneer will rub off on them. Act like they are right and know it, without fighting, and someone might just believe it. Act like they're strong and attractive, not vicious and desperate; people only like underdogs that will win. Defs don't murder a cool bird, and have everyone hate you regardless of the context. Yeah, it's so weird how the Palestinians, who are clearly in complete control over the narrative pushed on the rest of the world, don't do this. It's very strange how Palestinians keep portraying themselves as "vicious and desperate" when they just have to act like "non-violent philosopher-monks". It's so simple I can hardly believe they've never thought of it!
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Aug 15, 2018 22:58
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Preen Dog posted:This works just fine for me. Animals are way more sympathetic than people, especially cool birds. Their innocent victim status is unassailable by any ideology. There is no such thing as a terrorist turtle or a fascist armadillo. gently caress off. Just gently caress right off with this disingenuous garbage. The IDF love slaughtering innocent animals nearly as much as they love massacring Palestinian children. Israel sure wouldn't kill innocent animals. https://gulfnews.com/news/mena/palestine/israeli-troops-shot-and-killed-zoo-animals-1.46837  A month ago, it was attracting families - he says the zoo drew up to 1,000 visitors each day. He points at the foot-long hole in the camel in one of the enclosures. "This camel was pregnant, a missile went into her back," he tells us. "Look, look at her face. She was in pain when she died." Qasim doesn't understand why they chose to destroy his zoo. And it's difficult to disagree with him. Most of them have been shot at point blank range.  "The first thing the Israelis did was shoot at the lions - the animals ran out of their cage and into the office building. Actually they hid there."
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Aug 15, 2018 23:19
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Just wanted to claim that Israel has a decent propaganda game, and Hamas is sometimes self-deprecating. Sorry. Of course all the actors have reasons to do what they do, and I don't expect them to behave any different. Someone previously suggested that Western pressure was the only way forward in getting an equitable deal in I/P. Which is why I try to offer a comfortable, disinterested point of view that regards it as a reality show. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Aug 15, 2018 |
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Aug 15, 2018 23:27
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Maybe the Palestinians should try to set up some kind of organization to encourage individuals and states to Sanction, Divest from and Boycott Israel. I'm sure that organization would be well regarded as a restrained and peaceful movement rather than monstered as people who want to kill all Jews everywhere.
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Aug 15, 2018 23:30
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Preen Dog posted:If anyone needs to work on the propaganda, it's Hamas (which, fairly or not, is conflated with all Palestinians, because they were elected). UNICEF sends sponsors pictures of happy kids, with fun pictures and write-ups, not dead ones buried under rubble. No one wants to see that. You'd think it would garner sympathy, but not if it's contrasted with a picture of a toddler wearing a bomb vest and a green headband. Israel doesn't have to brand Palestinians at terrorists when it's done for them, so expertly, for free. Of course, Israel is the target of plenty of negative propaganda, but at least they're smart enough not to produce it themselves. And if any pictures of toddlers wearing bomb vests actually existed, rather than being bullshit propaganda made up out of whole cloth by racist maniacs, I might actually respond to it. After all, there's no way Israelis would ever do something that looked as bad as, say, publicly celebrating the murder of an infant by terrorists*. *the link goes to an instance of Israelis doing exactly that, at a loving wedding no less
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Aug 15, 2018 23:34
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Preen Dog posted:Of course all the actors have reasons to do what they do, and I don't expect them to behave any different. Nobody, nobody has any reason to fire missiles at a zoo and to shoot caged lions. The people who choose to do that are irredeemable psychopathic monsters. That they then choose to do some concern trolling about animals accidentally killed by an uncontrolled fire just shows the depth of their depravity.
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Aug 16, 2018 00:12
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Cat Mattress posted:Nobody, nobody has any reason to fire missiles at a zoo and to shoot caged lions. The people who choose to do that are irredeemable psychopathic monsters. That they then choose to do some concern trolling about animals accidentally killed by an uncontrolled fire just shows the depth of their depravity. Clearly they weren't caged lions, they were terror cats.
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Aug 16, 2018 00:23
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It still works even if it's fake. Someone made an effective pic. I don't even know who these guys are or what the writing says. Doesn't matter. Also many people will feel inadequate when seeing 5 year olds that are harder than they could ever be.  Give me housing developments and iron domes. And beach babes with service rifles! Protect, grow, build, be better than the other guys. No one is, but it's a narrative that's attractive. BDS is a big negative. 20 pages, not one positive article. Israel is bad, donate or volunteer to (try to) hurt it. There is no upside. How am I supposed to feel attacking a thing, when that thing seems healthy and won't be affected by my efforts? It's not gratifying. Sell me on Palestine, how it can win and how I can be a part. Also the irony of identifying as an anti-thing, and then needing that thing to exist to exist, yourself. Cat Mattress posted:Nobody, nobody has any reason to fire missiles at a zoo and to shoot caged lions. The people who choose to do that are irredeemable psychopathic monsters. That they then choose to do some concern trolling about animals accidentally killed by an uncontrolled fire just shows the depth of their depravity. Right, you publicize it when the other guys do it, and ignore it when your guys do. Everyone's doing what is convenient to their feelings at the moment, and there's no point in trying to line them up on some moral hierarchy. They've all got their rationalizations, and the only real arbiter is tangible consequences, which most of the actors are insulated from. That's why they shoot/ignite animals. What matters is the quality of the rationalizations, and how compelling or attractive they are to other significant actors. Frankly, I'm just annoyed at practical morality (with immediate feedback and consequence) being applied to geopolitical situations where the social structures and forces at play are so much bigger than individuals. Like, you could somehow pick countries or companies or movements or people up and place them on a line from evilest to goodest. When the individuals are just self-interested, and their view of the world is narrow and mostly fiction. Whoever shot a lion was certain it was a good idea, like the guy who tied a fire to a bird, the guy who dresses his kid like Rambo, and the people ITT thinking they can tally what's worst, as if it's up to them to choose, or could do anything about it if they did. TLDR; just watch it burn, no reason to get invested. It's all very interesting. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2018 00:45
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Preen Dog posted:Right, you publicize it when the other guys do it, and ignore it when your guys do. Everyone's doing what is convenient to their feelings at the moment, and there's no point in trying to line them up on some moral hierarchy. They've all got their rationalizations, and the only real arbiter is tangible consequences, which most of the actors are insulated from. That's why they shoot/ignite animals. What matters is the quality of the rationalizations, and how compelling or attractive they are to other significant actors. I'm sorry, are you equating animals killed in a brush fire with zoo animals put down by soldiers for literally no reason?
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Aug 16, 2018 00:49
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Saying there's no point comparing them morally because only their consequences matter. Though I am curious why they would waste the zoo animals.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:06
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Maybe the Palestinians should try to set up some kind of organization to encourage individuals and states to Sanction, Divest from and Boycott Israel. I'm sure that organization would be well regarded as a restrained and peaceful movement rather than monstered as people who want to kill all Jews everywhere. This is disingenuous nonsense, as the official BDS movement supports the right of return, meaning it's not the actual two state solution, making it a complete non-starter with Israel. It's not a movement merely trying to end the occupation or end the Gaza blockade. It's actually directly contradicting those efforts, and trying really hard to prolong a miserable war.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:26
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Preen Dog posted:Saying there's no point comparing them morally because only their consequences matter. Man you gotta tell legislators they were all wrong when they made these fancy differences between first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, negligent manslaughter, and accidental manslaughter.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:32
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Kim Jong Il posted:This is disingenuous nonsense, as the official BDS movement supports the right of return, meaning it's not the actual two state solution, making it a complete non-starter with Israel. It's not a movement merely trying to end the occupation or end the Gaza blockade. It's actually directly contradicting those efforts, and trying really hard to prolong a miserable war. So they should start the negotiation without any positions they could back off from?
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Aug 16, 2018 01:37
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Preen Dog posted:It still works even if it's fake. Someone made an effective pic. I don't even know who these guys are or what the writing says. Doesn't matter. You'e both a horrible piece of poo poo, and a dumb piece of poo poo. But above all else a cowardly piece of poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:37
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Kim Jong Il posted:This is disingenuous nonsense, as the official BDS movement supports the right of return, meaning it's not the actual two state solution, making it a complete non-starter with Israel. It's not a movement merely trying to end the occupation or end the Gaza blockade. It's actually directly contradicting those efforts, and trying really hard to prolong a miserable war.
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Aug 16, 2018 01:45
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Preen Dog posted:It still works even if it's fake. Someone made an effective pic. I don't even know who these guys are or what the writing says. Doesn't matter. That's a lot of words, but as far as I can tell, they say absolutely nothing. Are you a marketing consultant or something? You're approaching a literal genocide based on which one has the better-funded propaganda operation? Preen Dog posted:Right, you publicize it when the other guys do it, and ignore it when your guys do. Everyone's doing what is convenient to their feelings at the moment, and there's no point in trying to line them up on some moral hierarchy. Here, I'll line them up on a moral hierarchy for you:
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Aug 16, 2018 02:09
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You've clearly picked a narrative that appeals to you. Makes you feel some way on some level. I just like to watch. What does it mean when marked journalists and medics are mowed and babies or whatever and Nothing happens. A judge can hand out murder sentences and there's a power structure to implement them. But who will avenge P? It's fascinating. I want to understand it, not shout at the universe that it's all wrong. If (if) Western pressure is vital to stopping Israel then propaganda means everything. Rockets and protests seem to make them stronger.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:28
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Preen Dog posted:You've clearly picked a narrative that appeals to you. Makes you feel some way on some level. I just like to watch. Are you drunk or something?
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Aug 16, 2018 02:38
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 +  =Preen Dog posted:You've clearly picked a narrative that appeals to you. Makes you feel some way on some level. I just like to watch.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:43
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So you can't even consider that realpolitik rules, even when if you don't like it? Good night.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:45
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Preen Dog posted:So you can't even consider that realpolitik rules, even when if you don't like it? Why are you pretending to be able to discuss the machinations of organic life.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:49
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Weird that a rich, developed country has a better-funded PR department than the starving ghetto that it keeps bombing.
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Aug 16, 2018 02:51
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